2019-20 Coaching Discussion: The Jon Cooper Watch

[DFC]

Pretty toxic thing though. And The Hockey Guy mentioned he did something similar in Detroit. I was in favor of bringing Babcock in, but I think incidents like this cross a line between "hard@ss" and "***hole."

 

[Felonious Python]

Terrible, terrible coaching tactic even if I see what kind of message he was trying to send. But mannnn people are seriously labeling this "emotional abuse"

This happened 3 years ago, Marner has posted increasing production every single year and was one of Babcock's most trusted player even over Matthew's. It's a ****ty incident but I don't think it's had any lasting impact on their relationship since.

I sort of don't get what the point of the exercise was. I could follow the logic of Marner identifying the hardest working guys, in the hopes that he'd gravitate towards them. If he's ranking all the guys, he's also probably ranking himself, even if you don't tell him to, and he may not like his initial realization. Some Socratic method/Inception stuff going on there.

Where I cease to get it is when Babcock doxes the list. Or why he even needs to see it.

 

[Sky04]

I sort of don't get what the point of the exercise was. I could follow the logic of Marner identifying the hardest working guys, in the hopes that he'd gravitate towards them. If he's ranking all the guys, he's also probably ranking himself, even if you don't tell him to, and he may not like his initial realization. Some Socratic method/Inception stuff going on there.

Where I cease to get it is when Babcock doxes the list. Or why he even needs to see it.

Yeah you got it, essentially it's just who you should pick up good work ethic from, apparently he listed himself last for obvious reasons. I think it'd have been fine if Babcock named the hardest working players as an example but to out the bottom of the list and name Marner was just stupid.

 

[Felonious Python]

 

[2020 Cup Champions]

Vindication of Commodore?

 

[Felonious Python]

Vindication of Commodore?

Yes, but also no. Tone is hard to read in text (which is why we have emojis), so I don't think we really knew to what degree Commie, who is a funny guy, was meme'ing and that was part shtick, although based in a kernel of truth (and if that was just a lone individual with beef). It was widely accepted Babcock was a curmudgeon and a bit old school, but came across well in his media interactions. The access media certainly never let anything serious on.

Bill Peters is now under fire for some racist language he used. I wish that the hockey industrial complex was good enough to adequately deal with these issues internally, and airing everything in the media will have many, many negatives, but since there seems to be no other way, it'll eek a net positive out.

 

[Felonious Python]

Coop is supposed to be on Hockey Central at Noon (at 1 pm) on NHLN

edit: doesn't seem like it's going to happen today. The Bill Peters story ended picking up pace while they were on the air.

 

[The Macho King]

Yes, but also no. Tone is hard to read in text (which is why we have emojis), so I don't think we really knew to what degree Commie, who is a funny guy, was meme'ing and that was part shtick, although based in a kernel of truth (and if that was just a lone individual with beef). It was widely accepted Babcock was a curmudgeon and a bit old school, but came across well in his media interactions. The access media certainly never let anything serious on.

I think Commodore has gone into a good bit of detail with his issues with Babcock. And I even think he was right about it, but since he was a replacement-level player and seemed to go beyond just disliking to look a bit crazy (and frankly hockey culture is one that doesn't like it when you air laundry), no one took it very seriously.

Look - I've worked for asshole partners before. Even if they're individually good, firms don't put them in positions where they manage talent much because it causes serious issues with retention. I think this situation is analogous. Babcock may get a job again, but it won't be in a media market with a lot of coverage because he's going to get a lot of questions about it and he won't be able to bench a guy for a shift without speculation going on behind closed doors. And the fact is, people management is a big part of being a coach.

Whether Babcock is a good X's and O's coach is open to debate (definitely overrated, but probably not a complete idiot). Whether he's good at managing people is clearly not. I don't think it's a given that he quickly gets another job after this. A team's asset is the players, and with more and more coming out about him and how he treats them, I don't think it is worth the risk letting him handle your talent.

 

[Five Alarm Fire]

I can't help but think that most coaches moving forward will be player-friendly like Cooper. This is a huge moment in the NHL, as it gives players a leverage over coaches that never existed before. It will still be in the best interest of NHL teams to keep everything in-house, but I think you'll see players be more willing to come out when horrific events like Babcock/Marner and Peters/Aliu happen. This will be attached to both coaches' reputations for the rest of their careers.

I have a feeling that this is just the beginning. There are probably a ton of retired players who have been stewing about former coaches for years.

 

[The Macho King]

I can't help but think that most coaches moving forward will be player-friendly like Cooper. This is a huge moment in the NHL, as it gives players a leverage over coaches that never existed before. It will still be in the best interest of NHL teams to keep everything in-house, but I think you'll see players be more willing to come out when horrific events like Babcock/Marner and Peters/Aliu happen. This will be attached to both coaches' reputations for the rest of their careers.

I have a feeling that this is just the beginning. There are probably a ton of retired players who have been stewing about former coaches for years.

There's a difference between being a hardass coach and being just an ass. There will always be guys who scream the paint off of the walls in the locker room - and that's fine. The difference is when it gets into manipulative bullshit like Babcock or being a racist piece of shit like Peters.

 

[Felonious Python]

Add Michal Jordan to the list of guys going public on Peters.

 

[Felonious Python]

What we're maybe not thinking of is that as teams fire coaches, certain guys will get put on the block. TB could possibly look to add guys squeezed out in regime changes and address the team through the roster, rather than a coaching change to get the same guys to adopt the style we need for playoff success.

 

[Five Alarm Fire]

There's a difference between being a hardass coach and being just an ass. There will always be guys who scream the paint off of the walls in the locker room - and that's fine. The difference is when it gets into manipulative bull**** like Babcock or being a racist piece of **** like Peters.

True - but hockey has operated under such a different standard that if more stories come out, I could see the outside world in an uproar over even lessor offenses. Babcock is a celebrity in the Toronto market even for non-hockey fans, and this story has landed on the radar of everyone.

What is the perceived line between hardass coach and being an ass, specifically within the hockey world? Most coaches are former players who played in a much different era, where guys like Mike Keenan and Punch Imlach are celebrated. Some of the stories from that era would not fly anymore, but in a twisted way actually add to legacy when coaches are remembered. Biographies about legendary coaches sell themselves with these kinds of stories.

I really do hope that it's limited to just Babcock and Peters, but I can't help but think that more stories will come out of this. If a story about a coach like say, Tortorella, came out tomorrow that was a similar magnitude, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Felonious Python]

True - but hockey has operated under such a different standard that if more stories come out, I could see the outside world in an uproar over even lessor offenses. Babcock is a celebrity in the Toronto market even for non-hockey fans, and this story has landed on the radar of everyone.

What is the perceived line between hardass coach and being an ass, specifically within the hockey world? Most coaches are former players who played in a much different era, where guys like Mike Keenan and Punch Imlach are celebrated. Some of the stories from that era would not fly anymore, but in a twisted way actually add to legacy when coaches are remembered. Biographies about legendary coaches sell themselves with these kinds of stories.

I really do hope that it's limited to just Babcock and Peters, but I can't help but think that more stories will come out of this. If a story about a coach like say, Tortorella, came out tomorrow that was a similar magnitude, it wouldn't surprise me.

Dan Carcillo's twitter account may be a necessary follow in the coming weeks. He doesn't want a hockey job, and has tremendous moral courage. (Akim Aliu shouldn't go unacknowledged here either for moral courage, he's shown it twice now that I know of.)

 

[LTIR Trickery]

What we're maybe not thinking of is that as teams fire coaches, certain guys will get put on the block. TB could possibly look to add guys squeezed out in regime changes and address the team through the roster, rather than a coaching change to get the same guys to adopt the style we need for playoff success.

 

[Byrddog]

And the sport turns into the Catholic Church type witch hunts. These are grown ass men who play a sport where they lose teeth one shits and back on the ice two shifts later do any think that a lightweight coach is gonna harm these guys????? Now I am not saying it is right for a coach to do this but I find it comical that some players come forward like this. Smells of Kapernick IMO.

 

[Maelmoor]

And the sport turns into the Catholic Church type witch hunts. These are grown ass men who play a sport where they lose teeth one ****s and back on the ice two shifts later do any think that a lightweight coach is gonna harm these guys????? Now I am not saying it is right for a coach to do this but I find it comical that some players come forward like this. Smells of Kapernick IMO.

That is a very old-fashioned view on things.

Ask yourself, would you like a boss that belittles, shouts and abuses you or would you like a boss that motivates you, makes you grow and gives you the opportunity to succeed? Leadership is changing, whether you like it or not and today it's much more accepted to talk about mental health, it's just as vital as ones physical health. Rather than the old-school "man-up now" people should be looked at as individuals. Yes, some people might need a harder push, but other's need a different approach. The old school approach is to much more focused on a group mentality, where every player is being shouted at.

There was an interesting interview with Jonathan Hedström, who while playing for the Ducks had Randy Carlyle as a coach and how his abusive methods lead to his eating disorder.

Part of hockey is to block shots, endure tackles etc, to be bullied by your coach is not something I see as part of the sport. So I'm really happy this comes to the surface, so some of the garbage can be cleaned out.

Also, Tampa has shown they don't accept poor behavior from player's, those kind of players have been shipped out, I'm certain that goes for coaches too, which is why I never thought Babcock would end up with us.

 

[Felonious Python]

And the sport turns into the Catholic Church type witch hunts. These are grown ass men who play a sport where they lose teeth one ****s and back on the ice two shifts later do any think that a lightweight coach is gonna harm these guys????? Now I am not saying it is right for a coach to do this but I find it comical that some players come forward like this. Smells of Kapernick IMO.

These coaches aren't lightweights. They control the future of these guys careers (and mental health) and in a physical sense, they are almost always a player of a previous generation.

At some point there will be stories that will seem a little 'light' in offense, but we're not there yet.

 

[LTIR Trickery]

And the sport turns into the Catholic Church type witch hunts. These are grown ass men who play a sport where they lose teeth one ****s and back on the ice two shifts later do any think that a lightweight coach is gonna harm these guys????? Now I am not saying it is right for a coach to do this but I find it comical that some players come forward like this. Smells of Kapernick IMO.

I bet you call people snowflakes.

 

[Boltswin]

I bet you call people snowflakes.

What's the difference between calling someone "snowflake" and claiming that someone else calls people "snowflakes"? Seems like some kind of projection. Don't attack me pliz

 

[God King Fudge]

And the sport turns into the Catholic Church type witch hunts. These are grown ass men who play a sport where they lose teeth one ****s and back on the ice two shifts later do any think that a lightweight coach is gonna harm these guys????? Now I am not saying it is right for a coach to do this but I find it comical that some players come forward like this. Smells of Kapernick IMO.

Man. Imagine living in this kind of reality.

Your entire post could have and should have been comprised of the bolded.

 

[Byrddog]

I bet you call people snowflakes.

Well yes yes I do. And Candyass comes to mind as well. I do not concur with all the feminism of the male of the species that has happened in the last 20 years. The roughest most males can be are keyboard bullies these days. When I was coming up in the 60's and 70's you wear a man bun you got your ass beat. Back then people were not afraid of everything and needed safe spaces. There were no school shootings the occasional fist fight took care of behaviors.

And if you not think some of these players need a kick in the rump now and again you are wrong. But Noooooo just set their primidona butts in time out(Pressbox). The younger generation will pay for all this in time. The world outside your cubical and safe places is dangerous. And there are fewer and fewer people that are willing to pay the price for this sissy assed young society to remain free. I guess we will need to train the females to protect the manbun explosion. Most the females have bigger balls than the guys these days.

So if you want to ride those down that do not like the snowflake society so be it. Happy you are content to be a weak generation.

 

[Felonious Python]

Well yes yes I do. And Candyass comes to mind as well. I do not concur with all the feminism of the male of the species that has happened in the last 20 years. The roughest most males can be are keyboard bullies these days. When I was coming up in the 60's and 70's you wear a man bun you got your ass beat. Back then people were not afraid of everything and needed safe spaces. There were no school shootings the occasional fist fight took care of behaviors.

And if you not think some of these players need a kick in the rump now and again you are wrong. But Noooooo just set their primidona butts in time out(Pressbox). The younger generation will pay for all this in time. The world outside your cubical and safe places is dangerous. And there are fewer and fewer people that are willing to pay the price for this sissy assed young society to remain free. I guess we will need to train the females to protect the manbun explosion. Most the females have bigger balls than the guys these days.

So if you want to ride those down that do not like the snowflake society so be it. Happy you are content to be a weak generation.

We're getting off topic, but who gave millennials participation trophies growing up?

I'm liking Jonathan Haidt on this type of stuff:


I do think the safe space phenomenon to be relevant, as the zoomers in colleges will be coming in to pro hockey, and coaches need to be able to know how to handle that.

 

[Byrddog]

These coaches aren't lightweights. They control the future of these guys careers (and mental health) and in a physical sense, they are almost always a player of a previous generation.

At some point there will be stories that will seem a little 'light' in offense, but we're not there yet.

I have to disagree talent determines these guys futures. Talent to play the game. I do agree that coaches are mostly former players as they should be but MOST are aged and could do little physical harm to a player. I mean I am about 60 and you can bet yer butt Most of the guys on the ice could beat my butt now. I do not think I could physically even feel like an insect bite to Maroon, Cernak, Killorn, Heddy, now some of the smurfs I might be able to0 make them feel something but I doubt they would need concussion protocol by anything I could do to them. Heck these are tough guys. Just the other night Keith Yandle took a puck to the mouth knocked out 9 chicklets he missed the rest of the period getting swen up and was on the ice for the first shift of the next period.

I reguard hockey players as the last of the dying breed of real men. NFL what a joke, NBA pfffttttt and I will not even mention golf. The point is I think a player would much rather take a kick in the keester than to lose minutes on the ice. That's where the coach can really hurt a player. We are not talking about pee wee's or junior hockey players we watch the adult game here and that's the reference.

As for participation trophys yes I admit my Boomer generation started that crap. IMO too many pot smoking hippes influenced this. Life is hard its harder if you are propped up and caudled by others because life will smack you right in the mouth many times.

 

[God King Fudge]

Well yes yes I do. And Candyass comes to mind as well. I do not concur with all the feminism of the male of the species that has happened in the last 20 years. The roughest most males can be are keyboard bullies these days. When I was coming up in the 60's and 70's you wear a man bun you got your ass beat. Back then people were not afraid of everything and needed safe spaces. There were no school shootings the occasional fist fight took care of behaviors.

And if you not think some of these players need a kick in the rump now and again you are wrong. But Noooooo just set their primidona butts in time out(Pressbox). The younger generation will pay for all this in time. The world outside your cubical and safe places is dangerous. And there are fewer and fewer people that are willing to pay the price for this sissy assed young society to remain free. I guess we will need to train the females to protect the manbun explosion. Most the females have bigger balls than the guys these days.

So if you want to ride those down that do not like the snowflake society so be it. Happy you are content to be a weak generation.