2018 Offseason Grade The Player: Micheal Haley

[CHGoalie27]

@CHGoalie27

1. Its so if the other team has a Haley or Burrows or Kesler or Marchand, Huberdeau and Dadonov can skate with the insurance that those guys won't stop them from playing their game without knowing it won't come without a price.

Kesler and Marchand are meaningful antagonizers as they play against top competition throwing them off their games. Haley is not an antagonizer he doesnt do that. He is an enforcer but he isnt effective at it as things usually happens when he is off the ice. And when he is on the ice, he has no chance to retaliate against the other teams best players. Ill quote Matt Barnaby on this. He said the best way to get back at the other team if they pester your best player is to do the same to the other team but better. That is how you make that **** stop.
Nothing above is wrong, but it still doesn't actually make a difference to Haley's case and purpose either way. What Barnaby said is one way, yes-maybe the best, but it's not the only way. He's not there to beat up an antagonizer, he's there so the other teams bigger fish doesn't take liberties. Do you play Haley against Pittsburgh? First reaction is no, need goal scorers...so when Crosby jumps our guy, can our guy defend himself without having to worry about Oleksiak doing something about it. He handled Jujhar beautifully that last EDM game. (Hey, I remembered one off the top!)

If Kesler hits Barkov in a dirty way, then yes, someone challenges Kesler to a fight to defend your team mate. But then that task falls on whoever is on the ice at the time. How often will Haley be matched up against Kesler?
Well I mean, they change on the fly, its as simple as calling the nearest Panther to the bench so Haley can get to work if Kesler is obviously being Kesler.

If Haley was a defensemen, I'd say he would be more effective at his job....provided he actually did a decent job being a defenseman.
Why? There's 6 D spots. Much easier to dbl shift forwards than D-men. And I was in the Guds fanboy club right with ya, but we lost that. Been lobbying for Byfuglien since I saw him blow by Gilroy, but we don't have him. We got the next best available physical specimen. Maybe he would do a better job as a dMan, I seriously wonder if ever occurred any coaches to try it...


2. Those staged fights you guys complain about is not only a necessary job justification and a good measure of who holds the upper hand by physical display, but that they are both a long standing tradition in a game and league that should hold and carry these "goons" in a much higher regard.

Fighting is down in the NHL overall. These stage fights carry no weight. Does it energize your team? I guess. Does it put goals on the board? No. It doesnt help you win the game.

It's a long standing "tradition" that fights happen even after a clean hit. I hate this tradition. If it was a clean hit, both sides should just move on.

Let's compare how much the team gets pumped up when Haley has a staged fight vs lets say, Trocheck throwing a huge hit at one of their players and starts playing with a chip on his shoulder. No fight needed. This question isnt even close.
"Does it energize your team? I guess." ::MIZ FACE:: Really?

I beg to differ sir, it sure does help win the game.

@ucanthanzalthetruth posted the McCabe fight, you know I often talk about that night as an example for a few things... but do you guys remember who won that fight? And that game? MacIntyre. He didn't even throw one f***ing punch. Helps to have the insurance policy.
Is Haley a Macintyre? No. Bob Probert wasn't Steve Macintyre. Nor was Boogaard. All mentioned are nevertheless highly effective and purposeful in a highly temperamental game where people have blades on their feet and clubs in their hands...


3. Haley provides a good level of comfort and when he scored his game winning goal if you HUMAN BEINGS didn't feel the extra emotion...

The extra emotion I got is because a guy that doesnt produce offensively actually produced offensively. The extra emotion is the fact you got something that is essentially a bonus. It was the same with MacKenzie. Has nothing to do with being an enforcer. You got something from someone that usually gives you nothing.

Well, yeah heart and soul players usually earn their keep off the scoreboard. Them doing their thing usually helps the guys that are there to be on the scoreboard do their thing. Yeah it's a bonus....been a Panther fan too long that you're making issues outta non issues!


4. Tanner Glass was a D because he was totally ineffective but he at the very least busted his ass amd didn't let actions go without something/ anything being done. Haley actually managed to put some points up.

Mamin busted his ass. Brickley busted his ass and put up points. This isnt a qualifier. At least it shouldnt be. Hell, Tom Wilson, that dirty mother****er.....but he manages to play top-line minutes. Lucic when he was younger put up points.
Can Mamin or Brickley step up to Oleksiak or Wilson or whoever is a pest under them?


5. Thornton was a D because as useless as he was as a player AND fighter. His name and presence alone provided SOMETHING keeping him from absolute failure...
His time here, yes he wasnt useful as a player. However, Ill reference the Merlot line here. Thornton was effective as a player and as an enforcer then. Just because you are an enforcer, doesnt mean you cant be a serviceable hockey player. Paul Laus?
In Boston, Thornton was an A++ combo of player and enforcer, then he came here and provided none of that. Instead like I said, he got a D because he at least provided the illusion by his reputation and good morale amongst his team to earn him a D. No way what Haley did, doubling the amount of fights as the next fighter on the list, and unpussifying this team, was worth the same grade as Thornton. I just don't see any fairness or logic to it.

In bold^

 

[CHGoalie27]

If you replace Haley's minutes with Logan Shaw's (the definition of a replacement level player, look at the Habs chart), or clone Jamie McGinn, Florida scores almost 7 extra goals.

Hope the fights are worth it.

I see the "it's not Haley's fault he plays so much" he's put into these situations by the coach"

So the people who are saying that,I'm expecting high grades for Derek MacKenzie too. Does what the coaches ask to the best of his ability, right? Great locker room guy that his teammates love?

No, a MacKenzie is a different case than a Haley and should carry different expectations. Especially as our Checking Line center. If Haley was our checking line center do you think any of us currently high on Haley posters would accept that? And I don't even think Haley is as much a liability on the ice as that chart (which is very very very unspecific) suggests.

 

[RogerRoger]

I find your dedication to defending the worst player in the NHL very impressive. He can't keep up with the game and he brings the team down whenever he steps on the ice.

You talk about guys like Wilson, Oleksiak, Kessler, but these guys know how to play hockey and have the talent level to be in the NHL, that's not the case for Haley. I'd take any of these guys, but what we get is a string of washed up enforcer rbought in via UFA that drag the team down whenever they are on the ice. It's awful, just awful.

 

[CHGoalie27]

I find your dedication to defending the worst player in the NHL very impressive. He can't keep up with the game and he brings the team down whenever he steps on the ice.

You talk about guys like Wilson, Oleksiak, Kessler, but these guys know how to play hockey and have the talent level to be in the NHL, that's not the case for Haley. I'd take any of these guys, but what we get is a string of washed up enforcer rbought in via UFA that drag the team down whenever they are on the ice. It's awful, just awful.

I'm also not defending what you're complaining about. Though 9 pts..we've had much worse non enforcers...and before anyone takes the piss, Haley got more time than Rocco so I don't wanna read that nonsense~!

 

[KW]

The way to appropriately respond to other team headhunters of your best players is to send your guy to headhunt their best players. Fighting the loser who headhunted your star is stupid as hell. They hurt you, you pay them back the same.

Not nice, but you need to find a way to defend your stars. Being nice isn’t gonna get it done. So you need a Hunterdude but not an old slow guy like Haley.

 

[Ryuji Yamazaki]

Obviously a D.

But, if he does in fact spell his name like that, that drags it down to an F.

 

[Chino Oscar]

Glad to see some see the value of Haley-type players and don’t have their heads stuck in statistics that can’t show you intangibles that these players bring.

 

[StrangeVision]

Glad to see some see the value of Haley-type players and don’t have their heads stuck in statistics that can’t show you intangibles that these players bring.

Is there a positive correlation between wins and Haley fights/physical play?

 

[Android 16]

Nice guy in the room, character player, and he sticks up for teammates. However, Haley has no value and no business being the NHL in 2018 and moving forward.

F.

 

[Gentle Man]

Strawman? How about trying to actually back up your opinion or address what I said? You didnt refute or disprove any of what I said. Trying to switch it off to hits, lol. You never stated hits, or I would have addressed that too.

Your exact quote, was that none of his staged fights had any positive effect on the team. That is 100% incorrect.

LOL, this is your kind of go to response(s) whenever you cant prove your points with actual reasoning.

Haley for his role is one of the best in the league. Doesnt make him a great player though. Doesnt make him a analytics darling (which by the way you are happy to throw away whenever a player you dislike doesnt meet your eye test but the numbers are good, or in reverse when a player you like doesnt pass eye tests for other fans but his analyitics are good, ie Nick), but every guy on the team would still tell you he is a necessary evil (despite being a liability on the 4th line). There is a reason he maxed out as a 4th line goon, doesnt take anything away from his effectiveness in that role. Nor does it diminish the need for said role. If his presence stops just one cheap shot related injury from taking place per season he is well worth the price.

Hence my D grade. Doesnt mean he isnt one of the better D players for his role in the league.

Not that I want to keep going back & forth on a Haley thread of all places...I stated hits in my reply to CHGoalie. What do you think punishing their important players mean?

On the flip side, what is the effect of a stage fight on the other team is? As @StrangeVision asked, is there an actual positive correlation that shows it leads to wins? And to further that point....you have to prove beyond correlation that it actually caused these wins?

When did I ever throw away analytics for players I dislike? This is the kind of statements that take away from your posts to be honest.

Analytics are analytics, I dont discount them just because I dont like the player. Are you referring to Demers? He sucked in analytics and performance. Yandle? Go read through my post where I actually suggested he should be captain and said he was our best defenseman this past season. His year 1? It was bad analytically. I still dont like him but I never discounted his analytics. He was bad year 1, good year 2. You are the one that discounts players performance even after numbers have been posted over and over again...instead your reply is always "show us the numbers then."

So, the onus is on you. Show us the effect staged fights have on the team. Ill help you out. There was one game where he didnt play and the other team took "liberties," and that was the last Ottawa game. But that's it. And we lost on a dumb Penalty Shot call.

 

[Brokin]

Not that I want to keep going back & forth on a Haley thread of all places...I stated hits in my reply to CHGoalie. What do you think punishing their important players mean?

On the flip side, what is the effect of a stage fight on the other team is? As @StrangeVision asked, is there an actual positive correlation that shows it leads to wins? And to further that point....you have to prove beyond correlation that it actually caused these wins?

When did I ever throw away analytics for players I dislike? This is the kind of statements that take away from your posts to be honest.

Analytics are analytics, I dont discount them just because I dont like the player. Are you referring to Demers? He sucked in analytics and performance. Yandle? Go read through my post where I actually suggested he should be captain and said he was our best defenseman this past season. His year 1? It was bad analytically. I still dont like him but I never discounted his analytics. He was bad year 1, good year 2. You are the one that discounts players performance even after numbers have been posted over and over again...instead your reply is always "show us the numbers then."

So, the onus is on you. Show us the effect staged fights have on the team. Ill help you out. There was one game where he didnt play and the other team took "liberties," and that was the last Ottawa game. But that's it. And we lost on a dumb Penalty Shot call.

You sure put a lot of credence in the Michael Haley effect as they relate to wins and losses. I mean it's laughable.

The guy plays 7:47 minutes a game and if we throw in Logan Shaw, that one more win would have gotten us to the playoffs. There are so many variables at play here as to what our record would be without him that it's impossible to predict. Yet here you are lobbying this nonsense.

Staged fights are a dying breed due to the reduction of the pure enforcer in the game. They are and were the result of no particular infraction from either team. Sure they happen on occasion as most enforcers will not turn down an invitation to dance just out of pride. However most of his fights were the result of him challenging or taking on another player for trying to intimidate a Panther player during a scrum or a previous cheap hit.

Michael Haley will always be a welcome addition unless the league chooses to clamp down on the cheap shots and/or we find the rare player that can both play the game and police the agitators. Maybe Repo is that guy or someone else will be acquired down the line but don't knock Michael Haley as the reason we missed the playoffs.

 

[Gentle Man]

You sure put a lot of credence in the Michael Haley effect as they relate to wins and losses. I mean it's laughable.

The guy plays 7:47 minutes a game and if we throw in Logan Shaw, that one more win would have gotten us to the playoffs. There are so many variables at play here as to what our record would be without him that it's impossible to predict. Yet here you are lobbying this nonsense.

Staged fights are a dying breed due to the reduction of the pure enforcer in the game. They are and were the result of no particular infraction from either team. Sure they happen on occasion as most enforcers will not turn down an invitation to dance just out of pride. However most of his fights were the result of him challenging or taking on another player for trying to intimidate a Panther player during a scrum or a previous cheap hit.

Michael Haley will always be a welcome addition unless the league chooses to clamp down on the cheap shots and/or we find the rare player that can both play the game and police the agitators. Maybe Repo is that guy or someone else will be acquired down the line but don't knock Michael Haley as the reason we missed the playoffs.

The boldest is just false. I, along with many will attest to this. A lot of his fights were staged and most of them came in the first. Let's not forget one of his fights were because of a bad hit he threw against Edmonton.

There are many variables. But you give yourself the best chance by icing your top 12 players.

 

[Brokin]

The boldest is just false. I, along with many will attest to this. Most of his fights were staged and came within his first 2 to 3 shifts.

There are many variables. But you give yourself the best chance by icing your top 12 players.

Michael Haley fought 22 fights of which 9 or 10 were with guys that play more than 13 minutes a night. Those included Dotchin, Simmonds, Manson, Coburn twice, Faksa, Maroon, Khaira, and McQuaid. Watson should be added here but he was injured much of last year and only averaged 12 minutes a night. It's always a good tradeoff when you can get a regular out of the rotation for 5 minutes except for Faksa and Khaira where Haley got the extra minutes.

6 fights were staged IMO and were all against guys playing less than 10 minutes where the two parties agreed to try and energize their respective clubs. The other 6 or 7 fights were retaliatory in nature. Most were initiated by Haley challenging the opposing player for a cheap shot or agitating although Haley did have a couple of uncalled high sticks to start the action. These certainly weren't staged.

So I say again, most of his fights were not staged by agreement of both parties to energize their respective bench's. And no you can't guarantee a higher percentage of wins by putting a non enforcer in the lineup in his place. Too many variables with the intimidation factor and the fact the guy is only playing 7:47 minutes a night (which means he is not in the regular rotation on the 4th line every shift).

 

[letsgrowcactus]

It's not necessarily a question of "do we need an enforcer/physical guy who can fight"; it is "should Micheal Haley be that player?" Yes he fights and he's possibly good for the locker room, but what else does he do on the ice?

He started over 56% of his time in the o-zone. That's the most of all our forwards and the third most behind only Weegar (a rookie) and Petro (yikes). Sure he only plays eight minutes a night but we're still wasting precious o-zone time on sheltering Haley because he can't be trusted elsewhere - time we should be using to score goals. He can't be used on the PP and PK either and we know we need to ease Barkov's icetime. If you take out the fighting/intangibles, he's worse than useless and has no place on the team.

I'm also not impressed by the number of penalty minutes he cost us.

Let's hope that Boughner limits his usage next year and that we can find a replacement (Repo?) that can fight/intimidate and be an okay hockey player at the same time.

 

[Brokin]

It's not necessarily a question of "do we need an enforcer/physical guy who can fight"; it is "should Micheal Haley be that player?" Yes he fights and he's possibly good for the locker room, but what else does he do on the ice?

He started over 56% of his time in the o-zone. That's the most of all our forwards and the third most behind only Weegar (a rookie) and Petro (yikes). Sure he only plays eight minutes a night but we're still wasting precious o-zone time on sheltering Haley because he can't be trusted elsewhere - time we should be using to score goals. He can't be used on the PP and PK either and we know we need to ease Barkov's icetime. If you take out the fighting/intangibles, he's worse than useless and has no place on the team.

I'm also not impressed by the number of penalty minutes he cost us.

Let's hope that Boughner limits his usage next year and that we can find a replacement (Repo?) that can fight/intimidate and be an okay hockey player at the same time.

You are entitled to your opinion but 7:47 a night by Haley is a non factor in the win/loss column no matter who is slotted from our depth players to pick up his ice time plus extra special teams play. To prove my point all it will take is IR time from one or two of our top 6 or 1st or 2nd pairing guys due to a cheap shot to even things out or put us in the minus column. He can't stop all the cheap shots but trust me when I tell you he intimidates certain agitators to mind their manners.

The answer will be as you said in a guy like Repo taking his game to the next level and handling the enforcement necessary in today's game. I also am skeptical to the tit for tat philosophy. Guddy knocked Hall on his arz in Edmonton and then the retaliation by Hendricks cost us much more. That philosophy can escalate into a major injury like the one to Ek.

 

[Chaos2k7]

Not that I want to keep going back & forth on a Haley thread of all places...I stated hits in my reply to CHGoalie. What do you think punishing their important players mean?

On the flip side, what is the effect of a stage fight on the other team is? As @StrangeVision asked, is there an actual positive correlation that shows it leads to wins? And to further that point....you have to prove beyond correlation that it actually caused these wins?

When did I ever throw away analytics for players I dislike? This is the kind of statements that take away from your posts to be honest.

Analytics are analytics, I dont discount them just because I dont like the player. Are you referring to Demers? He sucked in analytics and performance. Yandle? Go read through my post where I actually suggested he should be captain and said he was our best defenseman this past season. His year 1? It was bad analytically. I still dont like him but I never discounted his analytics. He was bad year 1, good year 2. You are the one that discounts players performance even after numbers have been posted over and over again...instead your reply is always "show us the numbers then."

So, the onus is on you. Show us the effect staged fights have on the team. Ill help you out. There was one game where he didnt play and the other team took "liberties," and that was the last Ottawa game. But that's it. And we lost on a dumb Penalty Shot call.

You know exactly what I am referring to. Feigning ignorance, on the things you say is pretty damn funny.

Lets use exact examples that everyone on this board knows, you have been throwing away the numbers for Mark Psysk for over two years. Also suddenly Nick has a good season and we see you start using analytics to back up why he is so good in your opinion, even when other posters can point out clear holes in his game. You are very specific on who you pick and choose to support, and when the numbers mean something for said player.

You are the one that cannot prove there is no correlation between his fights and wins, so instead of backing your opinion with anything other than conjecture, you are now demanding the opposite, now we must prove the opposite to you when in actuality you are the one making the claims that it has no effect.You are saying its not important or that it doesnt exist, but the onus is on me? I have to prove it wrong? That is your arguement, not mine, and its actually very flimsy.

Analytics isnt only a thing when you try to find a specific number to back up whatever your own personal opinions on a player in question. They are simply the numbers, for good or for bad. You, yourself have argued for a couple years, that analytics dont mean anything and that they need to match the eye test, but you only throw them out saying they mean nothing when they dont match your personal opinion, or hold them up as gold when they do. They are either always relevant or they arent. You flip flop depending on situation.

You spend the season a couple years ago making blanket statements about all the Dmen because of your anger towards the offseason moves. You took hits on Ekblad, MM, Yandle, Demers, Pysyk you name it. Many outrageous comments. All proven very incorrect just last season with an actual NHL gameplan. Just like you started the daily mentions of the LVK and GG in every thread last year and then tapered off by the end of the season when we were winning. To the point when you yourself start posting about how its such a drag that kept coming up. You build these issues up in your head and then try to play both sides of the arguement depending on how its looking. Its quite funny to follow you and watch you waffle back and forth based on the flavour of the day.

Again, Haley is just fine in his role with the team. Is he an everyday guy? No. But he simply gears up when the coach tells him to get ready. If that is his biggest flaw, its fine.

 

[StrangeVision]

The team's record when Haley had at least one fight was 10-9-1.

Panthers' overall record was 44-30-8.

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

GAR is goals about replacement. All it tells you is if Haley was replaced by a run of the mill 4th liner, the Panthers would've scored almost 7 more goals. I don't know how to measure Haley's fights "value" to the team, that would be the argument a pro Haley person would make. But in terms of on-ice actual hockey, despite playing very easy minimal time, he cost the team a lot.

The sport's hockey right? Even a Haley defender would say he's not a good player.

And that's my issue. If his value is in fighting, he needs to play to fight. But it would be hard for him to play much less than he does, and he still cost the team a lot, so how do you find a solution.

 

[Chaos2k7]

GAR is goals about replacement. All it tells you is if Haley was replaced by a run of the mill 4th liner, the Panthers would've scored almost 7 more goals. I don't know how to measure Haley's fights "value" to the team, that would be the argument a pro Haley person would make. But in terms of on-ice actual hockey, despite playing very easy minimal time, he cost the team a lot.

The sport's hockey right? Even a Haley defender would say he's not a good player.

And that's my issue. If his value is in fighting, he needs to play to fight. But it would be hard for him to play much less than he does, and he still cost the team a lot, so how do you find a solution.

In a perfect word the young talent we have comes to camp and makes it so apparent with the talent gap that BB and DT really have to look it in the face. Now that doesnt mean he cant suit up a more suitable 35-40 games next season, but only when actually required.

 

[CHGoalie27]

At the very worst, Micheal Haley just took 5 + mins of ice time away from someone on the other team that would fight Micheal Haley.

Every inch counts folks.

 

[FlaPanthers11]

At the very worst, Micheal Haley just took 5 + mins of ice time away from someone on the other team that would fight Micheal Haley.

Every inch counts folks.

See this kind of tells you that he isn't a good hockey player when you can automatically assume that the guy he is taking off the ice is better than him.

 

[CHGoalie27]

See this kind of tells you that he isn't a good hockey player when you can automatically assume that the guy he is taking off the ice is better than him.

If hes taking Wayne Simmonds off then yeah of course hes taking a better plAyer with him....and??? Mission accomplished!

So whats the problem?

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

You guys missed the playoffs by 2 points. Replacing Haley with the best AHLer you had available in the system would have almost certainly pushed your team into the playoffs.

As a Sharks fan, I know the player well. I like the person for sure. But the player just sucks and it is inexplicable that he gets played anywhere near as much as he does.

Also, useless goons do not deter dirty hits.

 

[Brokin]

You guys missed the playoffs by 2 points. Replacing Haley with the best AHLer you had available in the system would have almost certainly pushed your team into the playoffs.

As a Sharks fan, I know the player well. I like the person for sure. But the player just sucks and it is inexplicable that he gets played anywhere near as much as he does.

Also, useless goons do not deter dirty hits.

You're right. Just think, Haley only played 58 games for you guys in 16-17. Just imagine what would have happened had he played 75.

With Haley.......... only 99 pts in 2016-17. Without Haley........100 pts this past season. If DeBored had only not listened to Mr. Boo and brought up someone that could actually play for those 58 games you guys would have likely made it to 100 pts in 16-17.

Like I said, it's a non starter for anyone that plays 7-9 minutes per game as there are too many variables that can't be measured. I'll take Haley till we get someone that can actually play 12-14 minutes a night and also offer a modicum of deterrence thru intimidation. Deterring one cheap hit that could cost us a front line player for many months is worth it. One of the last games that jackass Kane was with the Sabres he was trying to intimidate Petrovic and anyone else that was on the ice...........but Haley. He refused to engage him and knew his bags were packed and would not have to face him the rest of the year. That right there was worth the price of admission as we easily beat them 4-2.

 

[Gordonx11]

I actually want to talk about this because there's a very interesting conversation to be had about a player like Michael Haley and I would be interested to hear from other fellow athletes who have played at a competitive level. Whether that's high school, college, semi pro, pro, etc... I think those will understand my point.

I get the sense, and I could be wrong, that Haley is very much liked in that locker room. I get the sense that he is a guy that ties on ice and off ice conversations together. A calming veteran presence if you will. IF I am correct, that is absolutely huge for a young team like ours. Sometimes we forget that these guys are real human beings with real emotions. (And heres where my fellow athletes will can chime in). The success of a team is almost always directly correlated with locker room happiness. Often times there's a group of 3-5 guys that always lightens the mood and provide a calming presence, and often times at least one of those guys isn't a top player, or anything close to a top player.

IF Haley is one of those guys, which I think most of us would agree he is, that alone is worth the minimum contract he is making. So, in my opinion there's a spot for Haley on this team.