NFL GDT: 2018 NFC Championship Game: (1) New Orleans Saints vs (2) Los Angeles Rams

[m9]

You go run-run, defense is playing the run, they end up stopping you both times into 3rd and long. Then what, you run again and kick a field goal with ~60 seconds left, or you pass, it goes incomplete there's a minute 40 or so left. Both situations are giving the Rams a solid chance to get into field goal range, we saw the kick Zuerlein made; that was good from 65. There is still the chance you score a touchdown, but your calls become predictable and make it much harder to do.

So you take a chance and try to catch them off guard by passing, being aggressive and going for the touchdown or even better the first down. You score the touchdown, or get the first down and your chances of winning are a lot higher than if you run the ball 3 times and kick a field goal.

Maybe it is too aggressive, but I don't agree with people blaming him, when it worked if the refs didn't blow it.

I'm open to being explained why I'm wrong though!

I'm open to being aggressive on third down and especially trying for a first down vs a touchdown. I'm not sure if Payton has commented on it, but if the goal of the third down pass is to get a first down and not a touchdown, that's great. That sets you up well to run down the clock and kick a FG. I don't like that the play was to a depth WR who barely touches the ball all game, but whatever. The play design worked. When you say "it worked if the refs didn't blow it" - it's true that the 3rd down play worked.

First down has to 100% be a run. You have ran through the best scenarios of that pass to Thomas, and even they aren't great. Getting 5 yards on that slant is okay, but doesn't really accomplish a ton. Getting a TD on the first down is a bad option as you give the Rams the ball with both timeouts and tons of time. The only option that is great off that play is a 1st down, which considering where they were on the field would be incredibly difficult.

I also hate the thought that running the ball on first down is somehow throwing away the play. The Saints are an excellent running team and have plenty of options with Kamara, Ingram, or even something with Taysom Hill. You can be creative and try to move the ball on the ground.

As for "both situations giving the Rams a chance to kick a FG", sure. But the defensive and offensive play-calling will be different with much less time on the clock, and that will favor the defense.

 

[David Suzuki]

Sean Payton has done a masterful job of deflecting away from the real reason they lost: his stupid playcalling.

It's not so much his play calling as it is just his general coaching in the game. He choked. Up 13-0 against a team playing their first road playoff game together in the most hostile of environments. Rams just dominated the last 2.5 quarters of play. Better team won.

 

[Roboturner913]

Blame the refs to an extent for the Saints/Rams game sure, but blame Payton first.

Feel like I'm on crazy pills here. Is nobody seeing my posts about htis?

The play was called a run. Brees failed to change it back after the auto audible. Brees threw a bad pass. It's Brees' fault, not Payton's. And I have groused about Payton's playcalling over the years more than any Saints fan I know.

 

[Roboturner913]

Besides that, the playcalling was good enough to get a first down. This is inarguable.

The fact that the refs did not award the first down as they should've is what prevented the Saints from winning, not the play call. The result of the playcalling on that sequence ultimately was a first down and goal at the 8 or 9 yard line and the Rams have no timeouts left, if the refs had done their job correctly. Again, this is inarguable.

Here's the thing, the league wants everybody to pick at the Saints here because it lets the league off the hook. They don't have to be accountable, change the rules or even publicly acknowledged they screwed up as long as everybody is like "Ohhh but it's the Saints fault because playcalling."

 

[Roboturner913]

On a related note, it appears the league will do nothing to ensure this doesn't happen again:

No major changes expected in aftermath of Rams-Saints

 

[m9]

Feel like I'm on crazy pills here. Is nobody seeing my posts about htis?

The play was called a run. Brees failed to change it back after the auto audible. Brees threw a bad pass. It's Brees' fault, not Payton's. And I have groused about Payton's playcalling over the years more than any Saints fan I know.

It doesn't matter if it's an "auto-audible" during other points of the game/season, that's why during specific situations you tell your players specific things. They had the entire two-minute warning to discuss the next sequence, audibles, hot routes, plays, etc etc. This isn't a random play in the middle of the drive that they are trying to rush. If Payton told him to audible to a pass if they had those guys in the box, it's a bad play-call. If Brees did it on his own (unlikely, but possible) and Payton is covering for his guy, fair enough. But you are being naive if you think those two great offensive minds went to the sideline on the two minute warning and didn't discuss the specific situation and just audibled to a pass like the would do during the 1st quarter of Week 3.

Besides that, the playcalling was good enough to get a first down. This is inarguable.

The fact that the refs did not award the first down as they should've is what prevented the Saints from winning, not the play call. The result of the playcalling on that sequence ultimately was a first down and goal at the 8 or 9 yard line and the Rams have no timeouts left, if the refs had done their job correctly. Again, this is inarguable.

Here's the thing, the league wants everybody to pick at the Saints here because it lets the league off the hook. They don't have to be accountable, change the rules or even publicly acknowledged they screwed up as long as everybody is like "Ohhh but it's the Saints fault because playcalling."

I don't want to let the league off the hook at all - I think changes need to be made and I feel horrible for Saints fans. That doesn't mean you can't analyze the situation and the mistakes that were made when a coach who is known for being unconventional in terms of play-calling (and of course he's had a ton of success with it) decided to something dumb.

 

[Roboturner913]

Again, if you're going to criticize the playcalling, you also have to recognize that very same sequence of playcalling resulted in what should have been a first down two plays later, with 1:40 on the clock and the Rams having no timeouts.

Nothing will change, because enough people are content to say the Saints need to "suck it up" and "move on" and that they're "losers" and all this and that, instead of looking at what needs to change to keep this from happening again.

And then it will happen to some other team. And then some other team. And the NFL league office will never be held accountable for its incredibly poor stewardship of the game over the last decade. And we'll continue to see a product that loses a little more of its integrity year after year.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Listen,

Sometimes you gotta shoot your shot.

But it's a game. I love sports and whenever I played a game I wanted to win. At the end of the day, it's just a game and it's a privilege to play, it's not life or death. It's reality entertainment with a score. Don't these people have family and real life moments they can depend on? I would hope, if not they got some issues.

 

[GKJ]

But it's a game. I love sports and whenever I played a game I wanted to win. At the end of the day, it's just a game and it's a privilege to play, it's not life or death. It's reality entertainment with a score. Don't these people have family and real life moments they can depend on? I would hope, if not they got some issues.

Didn't you say in another thread that you have time to kill at work? Not everyone does that by posting on HF Boards. Some people file lawsuits.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Again, if you're going to criticize the playcalling, you also have to recognize that very same sequence of playcalling resulted in what should have been a first down two plays later, with 1:40 on the clock and the Rams having no timeouts.

Nothing will change, because enough people are content to say the Saints need to "suck it up" and "move on" and that they're "losers" and all this and that, instead of looking at what needs to change to keep this from happening again.

And then it will happen to some other team. And then some other team. And the NFL league office will never be held accountable for its incredibly poor stewardship of the game over the last decade. And we'll continue to see a product that loses a little more of its integrity year after year.

I criticize the first quarter playcalling. The first drive was fine, the second drive after the pick was so conservative, the third drive git bailed out by an offside. They probably should have been up atleast 17-0

 

[m9]

Again, if you're going to criticize the playcalling, you also have to recognize that very same sequence of playcalling resulted in what should have been a first down two plays later, with 1:40 on the clock and the Rams having no timeouts.

Nothing will change, because enough people are content to say the Saints need to "suck it up" and "move on" and that they're "losers" and all this and that, instead of looking at what needs to change to keep this from happening again.

And then it will happen to some other team. And then some other team. And the NFL league office will never be held accountable for its incredibly poor stewardship of the game over the last decade. And we'll continue to see a product that loses a little more of its integrity year after year.

You are looking at the (hypothetical) result and not the process which will prove to be better more often. But whatever, suit yourself.

 

[Roboturner913]

You are looking at the (hypothetical) result

If they call the pass interference as everybody agrees it rightfully should have been, it's 1:40 on the clock and the Rams have no timeouts. The Saints can kneel on the ball 3 times and kick a 25-30 yard field goal with no more than 15 seconds on the clock.

You can call that a "hypothetical result" all you want, but it's not exactly a farfetched scenario.

 

[Big Phil]

Feel like I'm on crazy pills here. Is nobody seeing my posts about htis?

The play was called a run. Brees failed to change it back after the auto audible. Brees threw a bad pass. It's Brees' fault, not Payton's. And I have groused about Payton's playcalling over the years more than any Saints fan I know.

Both plays were called a run? Either way, Brees and Payton have enough experience to know how to win an important game. They threw two passes that should have been runs. Heck, taking a knee would have been an improvement, at least it keeps the clock running. This was just Football 101 at this stage of the game. We've seen multiple Super Bowls lost because of terrible play calls. Now we've seen an NFC championship.

 

[Roboturner913]

They threw two passes that should have been runs.

And the second pass should have been a first down had the officials simply done their job correctly.

Why should the Saints bear more responsibility for the outcome than the poor officating? Why is everybody so gung-ho to protect the NFL from criticism over this? It's mind-boggling.

I'm over it, but at the very least we can just call it what it is and stop letting the league off the hook for stuff like this.

 

[Roboturner913]

I'm actually in agreement with Sports Enthusiast over one thing, I would rather eliminate challenges altogether than to continue on the way things are headed.

Challenges have caused these situations where we're trying to find a millimeter of space between the ground and a guy's knee while simultaneously looking for a millimeter of space between the guy's hand and the ball so we can figure out if the play is a fumble or not. Catches that are not catches. And so on and so on. But if the challenges can't be used or depended upon in the most crucial moments of the most crucial games to get the calls right, then why are we even doing it? It's made the officials weak and indecisive, it invites inordinate amounts of controversy and it makes games last way longer than they need to. Either get it right or just get rid of it all.

 

[Big Phil]

And the second pass should have been a first down had the officials simply done their job correctly.

Why should the Saints bear more responsibility for the outcome than the poor officating? Why is everybody so gung-ho to protect the NFL from criticism over this? It's mind-boggling.

I'm over it, but at the very least we can just call it what it is and stop letting the league off the hook for stuff like this.

I don't want to let the league off the hook. The refereeing played into this loss. Believe me, I am a Toronto Maple Leafs fan and 1993 is still a bitter memory, but one bad non-call does not make a game. There is no pass interference to begin with if they just run it. We aren't even having this discussion is Payton didn't sleepwalk through Football 101 class.

The great pass to Ginn reminded me a lot of the pass to Julio Jones two years ago in the Super Bowl. Jones catches the ball on the 22 yard line with a first down. All the Falcons literally had to do was attempt, yes just ATTEMPT, to run the ball three times. Even if they got 2-3 yards combined they kick a pretty easy field goal and it is a two-score game with time shaven off the clock. I said the same thing when Ginn caught the ball that I said when Jones did. That this game is in the bag and even a moron would know how to win this game. Neither coach did this and both had disastrous losses because of it. Without that, there is no disastrous non-call. So the Saints set themselves up for failure.

 

[Roboturner913]

So the Saints set themselves up for failure.

I won't argue this, but the thing is they actually overcame that failure. Then the ref decided not to throw the flag.

 

[m9]

If they call the pass interference as everybody agrees it rightfully should have been, it's 1:40 on the clock and the Rams have no timeouts. The Saints can kneel on the ball 3 times and kick a 25-30 yard field goal with no more than 15 seconds on the clock.

You can call that a "hypothetical result" all you want, but it's not exactly a farfetched scenario.

Sorry, I don't mean "hypothetical" in a bad way. It's just not what ended up happening (due to the terrible non-call) so I didn't know a better way to word it.

And the second pass should have been a first down had the officials simply done their job correctly.

Why should the Saints bear more responsibility for the outcome than the poor officating? Why is everybody so gung-ho to protect the NFL from criticism over this? It's mind-boggling.

I'm over it, but at the very least we can just call it what it is and stop letting the league off the hook for stuff like this.

Just to sum up, I am not letting the league off the hook. The non-call is still the main takeaway from the end of the game, and as discussed earlier in this thread I think changes need to be made to prevent things like this from happening to teams.

I just wanted a bit more explanation on what Brees/Payton were doing on that series, and thank you for providing it. I stand by that running the ball is the only option on first down and should probably also be the call on 2nd down. There are different ways to manage third down (which depends on how successful the first two runs are) but given the situation that Payton/Brees put themselves into that was a great play on 3rd down and the Saints were extremely unfortunate to not get the result on it.

I still don't like the process they took to get there, and I know you're tuned into the Saints so if you see something come up regarding the thought process of Brees/Payton for that series at some point I would be interested in reading it because it's not something I understand.

 

[m9]

I'm actually in agreement with Sports Enthusiast over one thing, I would rather eliminate challenges altogether than to continue on the way things are headed.

Challenges have caused these situations where we're trying to find a millimeter of space between the ground and a guy's knee while simultaneously looking for a millimeter of space between the guy's hand and the ball so we can figure out if the play is a fumble or not. Catches that are not catches. And so on and so on. But if the challenges can't be used or depended upon in the most crucial moments of the most crucial games to get the calls right, then why are we even doing it? It's made the officials weak and indecisive, it invites inordinate amounts of controversy and it makes games last way longer than they need to. Either get it right or just get rid of it all.

This is something I've thought about as well, and it's why I would like the automatic reviews on TDs and turnovers gone. If they need to review a few key plays a game, that's great. I don't need to see if a guy get a TD, then ruled back to the 1/2 yard line, then line up so a different guy can run in for a 1yd TD. They would need to get TV crews on board to not slow-mo and zoom replay everything, but I'm fine with it as well.

 

[Roboturner913]

To tell you the truth M9, I don't understand or like it either. I would much rather they have run the ball three times. Actually I'd rather they kneel on it three times.

All I'm saying is, the officiating is far more to blame than the playcalling. No matter any of the other factors present from the opening kickoff to that point, if the officials did their job correctly the Saints have the ball on the 8 (or 9, or whatever it was) yard line and they can kill out almost the entire clock and kick a chip shot field goal.

I'm over it from a fan perspective, because TBH I thought the Saints were out of gas this season and the Rams were the better team. The Saints didn't deserve to lose, but the Rams didn't deserve to lose either after all they had to overcome just to make the game close at the end.

I've just gotten to the point where I can't stomach the league office anymore and the horrible way they've been running things for the last 10-12 years, and this, at least in regards to the on-field issues, is pretty much the culmination of all their mismanagement and ineptitude, particularly when it's become clear that they're not going to even try to change it.

 

[Big Phil]

I won't argue this, but the thing is they actually overcame that failure. Then the ref decided not to throw the flag.

How did they overcome that failure? Throwing the ball in the first place is what set them up for a bad non-call which set them up for stopping the clock and not having the Rams waste a time out...........again.

I am with you on the reffing and the league office. It's horrible. But why even chance it if you are the Saints in the first place?

 

[V13]

The lawsuit, filed in Orleans Parish Civil District Court, claims the named plaintiffs, Tommy Badeaux and Candis Lambert, and their fellow Saints fans suffered myriad damages when referees failed to call a clear pass-interference penalty that spelled the difference in Sunday’s game. It names NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell and the league as defendants. Among the many things the Saints fans are alleging damage wise include: Past, present and future mental anguish and emotional trauma, “loss of enjoyment of life” and “distrust of the game which has become the National pastime.”

Lol

I hope they have good lawyers because they're never going to win this

This shit is getting out of hand

 

[Roboturner913]

How did they overcome that failure?

By getting the first down.

The fact that the ref did not award the first down as he should have is in no way the Saints fault.

 

[Roboturner913]

Lol

I hope they have good lawyers because they're never going to win this

This **** is getting out of hand

Nobody actually thinks they're going to win. They're just trying to keep it in the public eye for as long as possible.

They're also not the first people to react in an extreme way to a loss like this (see Vikings fans from 2010 to present). People are people, some of them will behave in extreme ways and most of them won't, and what team they root for has no bearing on it.

 

[V13]

Nobody actually thinks they're going to win. They're just trying to keep it in the public eye for as long as possible.

They're also not the first people to react in an extreme way to a loss like this (see Vikings fans from 2010 to present). People are people, some of them will behave in extreme ways and most of them won't, and what team they root for has no bearing on it.

Sure but they are wasting money. Nobody will really care a couple of months from now. Hell nobody outside of NFL fans probably care right now

I understand that they are pissed but throwing lawsuits left and right won't accomplish anything other than them burning money for nothing. Anlso the NFL has the money to get the best lawyers there is. Even if their cases wasn't weak as hell they still would burn a tons of cash going against the NFL and their lawyers