2018 Management Discussion

[Fire Benning]

It's too bad Trev isn't doing anymore interviews for the summer, would be awesome to ask him if he still believes creating a market and weaponizing cap space isn't possible.

 

[I in the Eye]

Are you allowed to trade a salary cap buyout though?

I'm not sure... probably not . Thinking about it some more, I think there would probably have to be an actual player contract changing hands... Probably cannot just trade "cap space".

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Maybe I'm being optimistic but I'd think a continual decline in both the on-ice product and ticket sales/fan involvement could put the nail in the coffin before the season is over. If Benning had largely left things alone and let the kids play I'd think you have a case, and there's still a chance of that depending on injuries and who Green decides to play.

Last year fans had the familiarity of the Sedin's and the excitement of Boeser to get them through the season and even then sales declined, so if this year Benning's apparent plan of having 5 Dorsett's for every 1 Pettersson in the lineup for mentorpedeship I think we could be due for another 14-15->15-16 level of drop in on ice play. Fan reaction/apathy should get even worse, and I don't think you can just ignore that with "rebuilding" because eventually enough people will catch on that it isn't actually what we're doing.

What's especially damning is the recent contrast of what the fanbase could be, which we saw when the Sedin's announced their retirement.

A decline in sales when the team is on a down cycle is to be expected..Nobody really wants to see a team full of placeholders,while you're waiting for your young prospects to be ready.....I think a fanbase gets more enthusiastic watching the young players bloom than watching the 'same ol' core for years on end.

Aqualini also has to stop charging SC contending team prices for a non playoff team.

Petterson,Hughes and Boeser could be 'game changers'...It may or may not happen this season,but reversal of fortune in the NHL is not uncommon

Vancouver Canucks [NHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

 

[clunk]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgVAjwaXUAARW4Y.jpg:large

The guy is such a slimy liar.

 

[tantalum]

Are you allowed to trade a salary cap buyout though?

I don’t believe you can. The buyout cap hit is intended to be some punishment for signing such a contract to begin with. They don’t want teams to be able to get out from under the punishment. If it was possible I’d expect we would already have seen it.

 

[timw33]

I don’t believe you can. The buyout cap hit is intended to be some punishment for signing such a contract to begin with. They don’t want teams to be able to get out from under the punishment. If it was possible I’d expect we would already have seen it.

League is already being pretty lenient by letting you have up to 3 50% retention spots.

 

[Hansen]

The guy is such a slimy liar.

Sometimes I wonder if he's not even lying, he's just so stupid that he thinks he has his thumb on the pulse of the league, when really its up his own ass. Since becoming President of the organization he has been so arrogant and conceited, he might genuinely think that they firmly understand their context and where the other teams stand; not even realizing how far off base they are.

If he is simply lying, then he is Aquilini level in slime. His reputation in Vancouver is going straight down the drain, it will only be so long before he goes back to being a failing real estate agent and gym franchise owner.

 

[Cupless44]

Ed Willes: Canucks’ Linden revamp left in the dust by Leafs’ Shana-plan

A must read

Good to see the local media starting to report what the reality is with this management

 

[RandV]

A decline in sales when the team is on a down cycle is to be expected..Nobody really wants to see a team full of placeholders,while you're waiting for your young prospects to be ready.....I think a fanbase gets more enthusiastic watching the young players bloom than watching the 'same ol' core for years on end.

Aqualini also has to stop charging SC contending team prices for a non playoff team.

Petterson,Hughes and Boeser could be 'game changers'...It may or may not happen this season,but reversal of fortune in the NHL is not uncommon

Vancouver Canucks [NHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

Just going by ticket sales numbers doesn't tell the whole story, because you're not looking at how many people are actually in the building or what prices ticket resale's are going it. Also when things are going poor they try to fudge the numbers where they can.

But either way I'm not talking about a continued gradual decline, but rather an outright drop. Again I'm not saying specifically if it will happen or not because some things are still up in the air and it's hard to determine actual numbers. But where as the last 3 years the team has hovered in the 70-75 point range and 'official' ticket sales 300-800 below capacity, I'm saying Benning could be canned before the season is over if we plunge to a 50-55 point team with ticket sales 2000 or so below capacity.

 

[clunk]

Sometimes I wonder if he's not even lying, he's just so stupid that he thinks he has his thumb on the pulse of the league, when really its up his own ass. Since becoming President of the organization he has been so arrogant and conceited, he might genuinely think that they firmly understand their context and where the other teams stand; not even realizing how far off base they are.

If he is simply lying, then he is Aquilini level in slime. His reputation in Vancouver is going straight down the drain, it will only be so long before he goes back to being a failing real estate agent and gym franchise owner.

Either way it looks really bad for him. Being too dumb or too slimy both hurt his 'reputation' big time, but he's likely killed it with many people anyways. Aquilini has a man crush on him, though, so I don't think he's going to be leaving this organization anytime soon, but hopefully he gets an ego killing demotion and someone that can actually run hockey ops effectively comes in.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Trust literally nothing of what these idiots tell us. They started lying as soon as Linden was hired. In fact the day before it was accounted be went on TV promoting his gym and said he was not the new president. Next day he apologized for lying.

Benning said the turnaround would take 3 years. We have been the NHL laughing stock for 3 years.

Lied about a retool vs rebuild.

Told us nobody offered a contract for Hamhuis (was debunked) and nobody offered a pick for Vanek , then 10 players with less points all got traded for picks.


If you believe anything these quacks say, you’re in trouble.

 

[F A N]

Ed Willes: Canucks’ Linden revamp left in the dust by Leafs’ Shana-plan

A must read

Good to see the local media starting to report what the reality is with this management

Hate to disappoint you but the same guys report the same thing.

 

[Nick1219]

Ed Willes: Canucks’ Linden revamp left in the dust by Leafs’ Shana-plan

A must read

Good to see the local media starting to report what the reality is with this management

I don't know... I still don't like directly comparing Toronto and Vancouver as they were in pretty different situations despite what that article states.

• Canucks were 33 points better than them the year after Linden and Shanahan took the helm. While I get they should've recognized that they needed to start slowly rebuilding things at that point, they still had the talent to win hockey games and make the playoffs so that's the mandate. The Leafs were already a tire-fire and had been for many years.
• The Leafs did have some really nice core young pieces already in place who were acquired from sucking for quite some time. Kadri - Back to Back 30 goal scorer now. And Morgan Rielly a #1 defenseman (arguably).
• The "similar veteran core" is a little off as well because the most valuable guys on this team were life-long Canucks (Sedins, Kesler, Edler) as opposed to guys like Kessel who the team and fans had next to no loyalty for. While getting something of value (a few first rounders) for the Sedins would've been nice. I'm still happy the finished out their careers here. Kesler? We would've been completely fine with the return looking back now so long as they nailed that draft pick, which obviously they did not. Even at the time I was relatively happy with the return.

Clearly and I mean CLEARLY the Leafs have done a better job managing their team, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that's not the case. But I don't like the idea of comparing them side by side from the beginning. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Phenomenon13]

I don't know... I still don't like directly comparing Toronto and Vancouver as they were in pretty different situations despite what that article states.

• Canucks were 33 points better than them the year after Linden and Shanahan took the helm. While I get they should've recognized that they needed to start slowly rebuilding things at that point, they still had the talent to win hockey games and make the playoffs so that's the mandate. The Leafs were already a tire-fire and had been for many years.
• The Leafs did have some really nice core young pieces already in place who were acquired from sucking for quite some time. Kadri - Back to Back 30 goal scorer now. And Morgan Rielly a #1 defenseman (arguably).
• The "similar veteran core" is a little off as well because the most valuable guys on this team were life-long Canucks (Sedins, Kesler, Edler) as opposed to guys like Kessel who the team and fans had next to no loyalty for. While getting something of value (a few first rounders) for the Sedins would've been nice. I'm still happy the finished out their careers here. Kesler? We would've been completely fine with the return looking back now so long as they nailed that draft pick, which obviously they did not. Even at the time I was relatively happy with the return.

Clearly and I mean CLEARLY the Leafs have done a better job managing their team, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that's not the case. But I don't like the idea of comparing them side by side from the beginning. Just my 2 cents.

We are essentially what Nonis and the Leafs are back then. The only thing we didn't do is give up our firsts for a phil Kessel like deal which cost us a Seguin and Hamilton.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Give it time ..

We are essentially what Nonis and the Leafs are back then. The only thing we didn't do is give up our firsts for a phil Kessel like deal which cost us a Seguin and Hamilton.

 

[Cupless44]

I don't know... I still don't like directly comparing Toronto and Vancouver as they were in pretty different situations despite what that article states.

• Canucks were 33 points better than them the year after Linden and Shanahan took the helm. While I get they should've recognized that they needed to start slowly rebuilding things at that point, they still had the talent to win hockey games and make the playoffs so that's the mandate. The Leafs were already a tire-fire and had been for many years.
• The Leafs did have some really nice core young pieces already in place who were acquired from sucking for quite some time. Kadri - Back to Back 30 goal scorer now. And Morgan Rielly a #1 defenseman (arguably).
• The "similar veteran core" is a little off as well because the most valuable guys on this team were life-long Canucks (Sedins, Kesler, Edler) as opposed to guys like Kessel who the team and fans had next to no loyalty for. While getting something of value (a few first rounders) for the Sedins would've been nice. I'm still happy the finished out their careers here. Kesler? We would've been completely fine with the return looking back now so long as they nailed that draft pick, which obviously they did not. Even at the time I was relatively happy with the return.

Clearly and I mean CLEARLY the Leafs have done a better job managing their team, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that's not the case. But I don't like the idea of comparing them side by side from the beginning. Just my 2 cents.

I don't the comparison at all. Linden and Shanahan were hired two days apart. One had a vision and a concise plan from day 1 and the other has had no real plan or clue what to do. He says one thing, does another, while trying to drag the team in two different directions at the same time which clearly doesn't work. One hired excellent management people around him and one didn't.

Toronto moved out expensive veterans, signed short term FA's they could flip to build their prospect pool fully embracing a proper rebuild while Vancouver overpaid FA's on bad long term deals, made bad trades based on poor pro scouting and delayed a proper rebuild by trying to compete for the playoffs each year but failing miserably.

 

[me2]

I don’t believe you can. The buyout cap hit is intended to be some punishment for signing such a contract to begin with. They don’t want teams to be able to get out from under the punishment. If it was possible I’d expect we would already have seen it.

You can't as far as I know as there is nothing left to trade once the player is bought out he's not under contract. You could trade for the player first and then buyout them out yourself (during the window) but that's about it.

 

[me2]

Give it time ..

We tried with Lucic.

 

[Brock Boeser Laser Show]

looks like a potential Karlsson trade might include a 3rd team to take on a cap dump according to Dreger (aka Tampa dumping Callahan for draft picks)....so much for there being no opportunities to weaponize cap space!

 

[me2]

Is Beagle even gritty? He doesn't fight and he's had 55 and 69 hits in total the last two years. That's below Brandon Sutter level, half the rate of Gaunce, even Granlund was credited with more hits per game last year.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

I really believe we will look back at this week as one of the darkest in a long time.

People I think, were ok with being bad this year, but now we are bad for at least 4 more years. Look at the contracts just signed. This is pretty much what our team is going to look like in 4 years, but 4 years older.

Gross.

 

[MS]

Is Beagle even gritty? He doesn't fight and he's had 55 and 69 hits in total the last two years. That's below Brandon Sutter level, half the rate of Gaunce, even Granlund was credited with more hits per game last year.

He had 16 PIM and one fight in his career.

He's 'hard-working' but has no physicality or bite to his game at all.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

In 2021 (3 years from now) half our roster is already set. And they include

Loui Erikson
Jay Beagle
Sven Baertschi
Antoine Roussell
Brandon Sutter
Erik Gudbranson

All of them 3 years older.


Yayyyyy to never being good again!

 

[northwestern comfort]

I don't know... I still don't like directly comparing Toronto and Vancouver as they were in pretty different situations despite what that article states.

• Canucks were 33 points better than them the year after Linden and Shanahan took the helm. While I get they should've recognized that they needed to start slowly rebuilding things at that point, they still had the talent to win hockey games and make the playoffs so that's the mandate. The Leafs were already a tire-fire and had been for many years.
• The Leafs did have some really nice core young pieces already in place who were acquired from sucking for quite some time. Kadri - Back to Back 30 goal scorer now. And Morgan Rielly a #1 defenseman (arguably).
• The "similar veteran core" is a little off as well because the most valuable guys on this team were life-long Canucks (Sedins, Kesler, Edler) as opposed to guys like Kessel who the team and fans had next to no loyalty for. While getting something of value (a few first rounders) for the Sedins would've been nice. I'm still happy the finished out their careers here. Kesler? We would've been completely fine with the return looking back now so long as they nailed that draft pick, which obviously they did not. Even at the time I was relatively happy with the return.

Clearly and I mean CLEARLY the Leafs have done a better job managing their team, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that's not the case. But I don't like the idea of comparing them side by side from the beginning. Just my 2 cents.

1) Willes somewhat addresses that. Linden clearly felt the 2013/2014 season was a blip. The Kesler trade was reflected that when they grabbed Bonino and Sbisa. I mean he also outright stated that they would be trying to make playoffs. Shanahan did not, and as Willes points out, Shanahan took most of the year to figure out what the management team would be. The Leafs hadn’t been as good as the Canucks, but they weren’t a tire fire for many years. They were a bubble team that made the playoffs several years. Who could forget the Bruins choke-job. Not that different from the LA sweep.

2) Leafs had Rielly and Kadri, but the Canucks had Horvat and theoretically the Canucks had more pieces to move.

3) The veteran core is a matter of perspective. If you value loyalty etc as Linden obviously did then you’ll see them as different situations. I think loyalty extends to obligations laid out in their contracts. The big Leaf players had similar NTCs to the Canucks; they weren’t massively different. The Leafs management team made it pretty clear to those players they were rebuilding. They could have refused to be traded or made it extremely difficult, but most players are willing to move on. If Linden and Benning wanted to, I feel like they could have convinced the Sedins in 2014 to move on. Edler’s refusal seems to suggest otherwise though.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Hate to disappoint you but the same guys report the same thing.

It's not the same thing, Ed Willes is reporting back on 5 drafts and 4 and a half years. He's comparing two franchises during that time, both of which on clearly different paths. It's a marker. This conversation sparked when Tavares signed with TOR.

-----------------------

Question for everyone: How long do you think this management group can stymie team progress? I want to gauge how many kicks this team has at the #1 overall pick, realistically.

- MTL should be worse. They've lost Weber and Pacioretty is getting dealt. I don't think they'll graduate Kotkaniemi either.

- ARZ finished the year on a good pace. I see them as being just as strong as the Canucks.

- BUF have gained Dahlin and have lost Kane and O'Reilly. I think they're at the bottom again this year.

- DET I see getting better. They tied VAN for 5th worse last year, but VAN had to finish on a streak to catch them.

- OTT is in shambles. They lost Hoffman and will lose Karlsson very soon. It's possible they also trade off Duchene as well. With BUF, I see them as one of the worst teams in the league.

So is VAN the 3rd worst? If you add together potential goal totals, I think VAN has a chance to be hovering at 200 goals scored. Only BUF got less last year with 199 goals for. Van had 218 goals.