2018 Management Discussion, Pt. III - Now with Less Trevor and More Mutiny

[Motte and Bailey]

Yeah, it was dark days in 2011 when nobody cared about the team and we were winning division title after division title to a half-empty building.

Nothing like now with the thousands-long season pass waiting list to watch Jay Beagle. Fans have never been more engaged than under Jim Benning!

Yeah, I'm sure Washington would trade their Stanley cup win for all those president's trophies that ended in playoff exits!

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

I am really not...

Haha of course you're not.

What I meant to say

 

[MS]

I must've struck a nerve for you to argue from authority like this. Please enlighten us all with the wisdom that would justify picking no namers with no NHL significant NHL futures by single spots or single digit draft spots over all stars and future hall of famers?

Gillis clearly had no idea how to scout players, nor did he know how to direct his scouting staff towards the right qualities in players that would lead to picking the right players that would perform well in the NHL, nor did he possess the ability to read a player's character the way a GM like Benning would employ an AGM like John Weisbrod to do.

In contrast, Benning possesses all of these abilities and will make off the board picks like Pettersson who was rated 9th, and because he knows how to do all those things. With the exception of Virtanen and McCann, which we can forgive because it was his first year and he didn't have all year to work with the scouts in developing the draft lists, he nailed every single first round pick and many more late round picks than nearly any other GM in the same time period. However you can still see in that 2014 draft him make some pretty nice picks in the later rounds which shows his residual draft skills taking over after a rough first round.

If Benning was the GM instead of Gillis in 2008, there's no doubt that he would've supplemented the Sedins, Kesler, and Luongo with several young stars like Karlsson, Rakell, and others. It's no use dwelling on the past but if we are going to go there it should be said and people should realize we should have won a cup if we had even halfway decent drafting during Gillis' tenure.

It's a good thing that Benning is the GM and hopefully he will remain with the organization in a significant capacity, perhaps he will be promoted from GM duties, because his impact on the scouting is night and day from the way it was without him and drafting is by far the most important aspect of team building in the new NHL by far.

Everything you say illustrates more and more that you have no idea how drafting works.

And Jim Benning is a terrible, godawful judge of talent who couldn't scout his way out of a paper bag. As his pro scouting record proves absolutely.

And why did Boston draft even worse than Gillis when Benning was supervising the amateur scouting arm of their organization?

Yeah, I'm sure Washington would trade their Stanley cup win for all those president's trophies that ended in playoff exits!

Winning a Stanley Cup is better than being an elite team that almost won one.

Being an elite team that almost won a Cup is >>>>>>>>>>>> being a laughingstock joke of an organization being run into the ground by a complete imbecile of a GM.

 

[Scott Stevens]

Yeah, I'm sure Washington would trade their Stanley cup win for all those president's trophies that ended in playoff exits!

Washington has both

 

[Grub]

Everything you say illustrates more and more that you have no idea how drafting works.

And Jim Benning is a terrible, godawful judge of talent who couldn't scout his way out of a paper bag. As his pro scouting record proves absolutely.

And why did Boston draft even worse than Gillis when Benning was supervising the amateur scouting arm of their organization?



Winning a Stanley Cup is better than being an elite team that almost won one.

Being an elite team that almost won a Cup is >>>>>>>>>>>> being a laughingstock joke of an organization being run into the ground by a complete imbecile of a GM.

Give him a break guys. Imagine becoming a Canuck fan in the Benning age. He would have never tasted the feeling of a winning team and competent management..

See how everything is hindsight with his arguments? Clearly it was from someone not following the Canucks during Gillis’ tenure. How he can even compare drafting between a top team in the NHL to a bottom feeder the past 5 season is laughable.

 

[MS]

JB still knows nothing about most of the prospects. It is pretty clear. It’s not just the table, but also the other videos.

It's amazing how people don't understand this.

Like, there are multiple examples where it's plainly obvious that he knows nothing about Gadjovich or doesn't even know what league Tryamkin was playing in and so on and people are still like GREAT GM HE DRAFTED PETTERSSON even though the team's president is in record as saying that Pettersson was drafted because he was targeted by Judd Brackett who pushed incredibly hard for him and (from the sounds of it) actually had to win an argument with Benning who wanted a different player.

Amateur scouting comes primarily from your scouting director and staff. If you want to see what kind of scout Jim Benning is, you look at his pro scouting record. Pro scouting is easier and comes pretty much directly from the GM's office ... and we're the worst pro scouting team in the NHL. The notion that he could go 5 years without being able to identify a competent NHL defender to bring into the organization but is some sort of [MOD] amateur scouting savant is beyond ludicrous.

 

[CanaFan]

Are you KIDDING me?

He could’ve drafted Erik Karlsson instead of Cody Hodgson.

Then he could have drafted Evgeni Kuznetov with the 1st rounder he threw away for Keith Ballard.

Then he could’ve drafted Ryan O’Reilly instead of Jordan Schroeder.

Then he could’ve drafted Rickard Rakell, who literally was picked right after Nicklas Jensen.

Then he could’ve drafted Brady Skjei instead of Brendan Gaunce.

Then he could’ve drafted Shea Theodore instead of Hunter Shinkaruk.

How many years of blown first round picks in a row does it take for you to realize that Gillis was a bad at the most important part about being a GM?

Ah yes, if only he had a time machine and could travel to 2018 and look back at exactly which players were the correct picks.

Brilliant work as usual.

Btw, Gillis could also have picked Kyle Beach, Colton Teubert, or Zack Boychuk instead of Hodgson too; as they were all ranked closer to the #10 spot than Erik Karlsson was.

But hey, if you wanna play the hindsight game then let’s make sure to give Benning shit for passing on Larkin for Virtanen, Pastrnak for McCann, and Point for Demko.

It’s an easy game to play if you really want to.

 

[CanaFan]

I must've struck a nerve for you to argue from authority like this. Please enlighten us all with the wisdom that would justify picking no namers with no NHL significant NHL futures by single spots or single digit draft spots over all stars and future hall of famers?

Gillis clearly had no idea how to scout players, nor did he know how to direct his scouting staff towards the right qualities in players that would lead to picking the right players that would perform well in the NHL, nor did he possess the ability to read a player's character the way a GM like Benning would employ an AGM like John Weisbrod to do.

In contrast, Benning possesses all of these abilities and will make off the board picks like Pettersson who was rated 9th, and because he knows how to do all those things. With the exception of Virtanen and McCann, which we can forgive because it was his first year and he didn't have all year to work with the scouts in developing the draft lists, he nailed every single first round pick and many more late round picks than nearly any other GM in the same time period. However you can still see in that 2014 draft him make some pretty nice picks in the later rounds which shows his residual draft skills taking over after a rough first round.

If Benning was the GM instead of Gillis in 2008, there's no doubt that he would've supplemented the Sedins, Kesler, and Luongo with several young stars like Karlsson, Rakell, and others. It's no use dwelling on the past but if we are going to go there it should be said and people should realize we should have won a cup if we had even halfway decent drafting during Gillis' tenure.

It's a good thing that Benning is the GM and hopefully he will remain with the organization in a significant capacity, perhaps he will be promoted from GM duties, because his impact on the scouting is night and day from the way it was without him and drafting is by far the most important aspect of team building in the new NHL by far.

He’s nailed all his first round picks. Except the 2 he didn’t. And of course the 3 that aren’t in the NHL.

But definitely, he “nailed them all”.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Everything you say illustrates more and more that you have no idea how drafting works.

And Jim Benning is a terrible, godawful judge of talent who couldn't scout his way out of a paper bag. As his pro scouting record proves absolutely.

And why did Boston draft even worse than Gillis when Benning was supervising the amateur scouting arm of their organization?



Winning a Stanley Cup is better than being an elite team that almost won one.

Being an elite team that almost won a Cup is >>>>>>>>>>>> being a laughingstock joke of an organization being run into the ground by a complete imbecile of a GM.

Jim Benning can't judge talent? I guess that's why he chose Pettersson who is one of the best talents Sweden has ever seen?

AGMs aren't hired to run scouting departments. That's what directors of scouting are, and the GM gets final say on the picks. AGMs might be go betweens for the media and whatnot and might play a role but aren't ultimately responsible as the director of scouting or GM's are. Was Gilman running the scouting or dealing with the cap, contracts, and CBA? Maybe if you were to blame Gilman and call him incompetent at his job (he was officially the AGM in charge of amateur scouting) then I might take your line of questioning in good faith. At this point, I don't think you have a principled stance against making bad picks because according to you Gillis' bad picks are excusable somehow if you know how drafting works.

Not winning a cup as a team that gets to pick high and rebuild their aging core > Not winning a cup as the president's trophy team with an aging, declining core

Were the Canucks really an elite team if they could only maintain it for a couple years? Seems like Sedins, Burrows, and Kesler overachieved. Don't get me wrong, I think they were all players you win with. But not players that could've carried a team to the cup by themselves obviously. They needed help in the form of a Karlsson, O'Reilly, Rakell, and a whole bunch of other young stars who were sitting right there available to us if Gillis had a clue.

 

[CanaFan]

Jim Benning can't judge talent? I guess that's why he chose Pettersson who is one of the best talents Sweden has ever seen?

AGMs aren't hired to run scouting departments. That's what directors of scouting are, and the GM gets final say on the picks. AGMs might be go betweens for the media and whatnot and might play a role but aren't ultimately responsible as the director of scouting or GM's are. Was Gilman running the scouting or dealing with the cap, contracts, and CBA? Maybe if you were to blame Gilman and call him incompetent at his job (he was officially the AGM in charge of amateur scouting) then I might take your line of questioning in good faith. At this point, I don't think you have a principled stance against making bad picks because according to you Gillis' bad picks are excusable somehow if you know how drafting works.

Not winning a cup as a team that gets to pick high and rebuild their aging core > Not winning a cup as the president's trophy team with an aging, declining core

Were the Canucks really an elite team if they could only maintain it for a couple years? Seems like Sedins, Burrows, and Kesler overachieved. Don't get me wrong, I think they were all players you win with. But not players that could've carried a team to the cup by themselves obviously. They needed help in the form of a Karlsson, O'Reilly, Rakell, and a whole bunch of other young stars who were sitting right there available to us if Gillis had a clue.

Dont ya mean if only Gillis and 13 other GMs has a clue about Karlsson?

And 28 other GMs has a clue about O Reilly?

But ya, Gillis is the only GM who should have known these guys would be studs. Just as I can’t believe Benning passed on Larkin, Pastrnak, and Point in 2014. Just ridiculous misses by both GMs!!

 

[y2kcanucks]

He isn’t overpaid if he will bring value to your kids through mentor ship, you maybe pay him a million dollars more than he would’ve gotten on a contender who is under the cap crunch but if you get him to help some young kids find their way then you’re potentially getting back many more millions in cap savings if those young kids developed into better players on those cheap entry contracts.

According to you every old player will "mentor" the "young kids."

He's not a good player. You don't overpay players like Jay Beagle long-term. Especially at his age. That's such an awful contract, but like I've said before there's nothing Benning can do that would make you ever criticize him. If he traded Boeser tomorrow for Ryan Reeves you'd either make up some shit about Boeser having a bad attitude or say something like we have enough youth and need more mentors and tough guys.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Jim Benning can't judge talent? I guess that's why he chose Pettersson who is one of the best talents Sweden has ever seen?

Tomas Gradin pushed for Pettersson, not Jim Benning.

AGMs aren't hired to run scouting departments. That's what directors of scouting are, and the GM gets final say on the picks. AGMs might be go betweens for the media and whatnot and might play a role but aren't ultimately responsible as the director of scouting or GM's are. Was Gilman running the scouting or dealing with the cap, contracts, and CBA? Maybe if you were to blame Gilman and call him incompetent at his job (he was officially the AGM in charge of amateur scouting) then I might take your line of questioning in good faith. At this point, I don't think you have a principled stance against making bad picks because according to you Gillis' bad picks are excusable somehow if you know how drafting works.

Not winning a cup as a team that gets to pick high and rebuild their aging core > Not winning a cup as the president's trophy team with an aging, declining core

Were the Canucks really an elite team if they could only maintain it for a couple years? Seems like Sedins, Burrows, and Kesler overachieved. Don't get me wrong, I think they were all players you win with. But not players that could've carried a team to the cup by themselves obviously. They needed help in the form of a Karlsson, O'Reilly, Rakell, and a whole bunch of other young stars who were sitting right there available to us if Gillis had a clue.

If Benning is such a great scout why wouldn't Boston take advantage of that? I would think a smart team would utilize the strengths of their management team. If Benning is as great as you say he is then I'm sure he would have had significant input. In fact, I recall him having his own pet player who he was super high on: Alexander Khokhlachev. Where's he?

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Dont ya mean if only Gillis and 13 other GMs has a clue about Karlsson?

And 28 other GMs has a clue about O Reilly?

But ya, Gillis is the only GM who should have known these guys would be studs. Just as I can’t believe Benning passed on Larkin, Pastrnak, and Point in 2014. Just ridiculous misses by both GMs!!

It's absolutely true that many GMs made mistakes by not drafting Karlsson and O'Reilly and others.

But I'm not saying that Gillis didn't have a clue in virtue of making a mistake on Karlsson alone.

It's the pattern you see develop over his entire body of work as a GM with respect to the drafting while he was here.

Very clearly shows he didn't have a clue.

If you want to compare him against other GM's, fine. Did the 12 or so GMs who passed on Karlsson also produce next to nothing in 6 drafts like Gillis did? I doubt it but if you want to go down that road feel free to do the research. It won't mean anything though because I'll just agree with you that the GM didn't have a clue, like Gillis clearly didn't.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

According to you every old player will "mentor" the "young kids."

He's not a good player. You don't overpay players like Jay Beagle long-term. Especially at his age. That's such an awful contract, but like I've said before there's nothing Benning can do that would make you ever criticize him. If he traded Boeser tomorrow for Ryan Reeves you'd either make up some **** about Boeser having a bad attitude or say something like we have enough youth and need more mentors and tough guys.

Why do you say that Jay Beagle isn't a good player when most fans around the league who have seen him play call him one of the best 4th line centers in the league?

 

[Peter10]

In contrast, Benning possesses all of these abilities and will make off the board picks like Pettersson who was rated 9th, and because he knows how to do all those things. With the exception of Virtanen and McCann, which we can forgive because it was his first year and he didn't have all year to work with the scouts in developing the draft lists, he nailed every single first round pick and many more late round picks than nearly any other GM in the same time period. However you can still see in that 2014 draft him make some pretty nice picks in the later rounds which shows his residual draft skills taking over after a rough first round.

Like who? Cant see any late round pick who has established himself in any shape or form on the team right now. Or are you talking about the picks that have potential and appear to look good. Did he "nail" them?

 

[Peter10]

Why do you say that Jay Beagle isn't a good player when most fans around the league who have seen him play call him one of the best 4th line centers in the league?

Paid like a top 3rd liner

 

[y2kcanucks]

Why do you say that Jay Beagle isn't a good player when most fans around the league who have seen him play call him one of the best 4th line centers in the league?

Because he's grossly overpaid and a bad fit on this team. His contract is 3 years too long. He has a NTC. He's 33 years old. And he's quite overrated. One of the big selling points for him was that he kills penalties; however, he was the worst PKer in the league among the 27 forwards who played 150 minutes or more on the PK. He's yet another bad signing by Benning among a long list of bad signings he's made.

Like I said, Benning gave out the 2 worst contracts given out on July 1. Beagle and Roussel's contracts are awful. Roussel scored 5 goals last year yet Benning gave him a 4-year deal worth $3M per year and NTC. It's quite hilarious to see you people criticize Mike Gillis yet praise Benning for bullshit like this.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Paid like a top 3rd liner

Since there are 93 third liners in the NHL, you should be able to find me 5-10 of these "top third liners" who are paid like Beagle who signed UFA contracts in the last year right?

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Because he's grossly overpaid and a bad fit on this team. His contract is 3 years too long. He has a NTC. He's 33 years old. And he's quite overrated. One of the big selling points for him was that he kills penalties; however, he was the worst PKer in the league among the 27 forwards who played 150 minutes or more on the PK. He's yet another bad signing by Benning among a long list of bad signings he's made.

What do you mean he was the worst PKer in the league? What statistic are you using that shows that? You're saying that out of a carefully chosen sample of 27 players he was scored on the most? That doesn't prove your claim. You would have to get video on those goals and show that they were the result of defensive errors on his part. I doubt you'll be able to do that though because if it was the case the coach of the stanley cup winning Washington Capitals would've taken him off the PK instead of giving him some of the highest PK minutes in the league. It suggests the opposite of what you're saying. It suggests that he was and is a good PKer.

The rest of what you said has nothing to do with his performance on the ice. Signing a contract that makes him "overpaid" doesn't say whether he's a good or bad player. Neither does having a NTC or being 33 years old or being overrated.

 

[y2kcanucks]

What do you mean he was the worst PKer in the league? What statistic are you using that shows that? You're saying that out of a carefully chosen sample of 27 players he was scored on the most? That doesn't prove your claim. You would have to get video on those goals and show that they were the result of defensive errors on his part. I doubt you'll be able to do that though because if it was the case the coach of the stanley cup winning Washington Capitals would've taken him off the PK instead of giving him some of the highest PK minutes in the league. It suggests the opposite of what you're saying. It suggests that he was and is a good PKer.

The rest of what you said has nothing to do with his performance on the ice. Signing a contract that makes him "overpaid" doesn't say whether he's a good or bad player. Neither does having a NTC or being 33 years old or being overrated.

That's what the analytics suggest. Go look them up for yourself. I'm not going to go around this block again with you because anytime I do you just ignore them anyway. Reality is lost on you. Logic is lost on you. You don't care about reality. In your mind anything Benning does is great. That's why the team has been so great during his tenure here.

 

[y2kcanucks]

For sure my views are seen through (homer) rose coloured glasses. It’s helpful for me to read views (like yours) that help clear my
lenses.
I was a very angry fan back during the Gillis era. I was happy with how well the team was doing (of course) but very disappointed with Gillis. I wanted us to rebuild black in 2013. I think that’s why Kessler demanded a trade; he saw our team’s fall coming.
Now I’m more excited for our future than ever. We finally have a great looking young core.

You wanted a rebuild back in 2013, yet are happy with Benning despite the fact he still hasn't started rebuilding?

Oh right...you're the guy who doesn't care about context. All you see are prospects while ignoring that Benning has just been a massive failure at the job he was trying to do, and not understanding that the NHL is a league that rewards failure.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

That's what the analytics suggest. Go look them up for yourself. I'm not going to go around this block again with you because anytime I do you just ignore them anyway. Reality is lost on you. Logic is lost on you. You don't care about reality. In your mind anything Benning does is great. That's why the team has been so great during his tenure here.

You're right about one thing. I do think the Canucks have been doing great things since Benning has started here. The franchise looks like it will soon be set for the next decade and excitement will be at an all time high when Boeser, Peterson, and Hughes share the same ice. The new core that Benning is putting together looks like it will rival and likely be better than any other core group of players the Canucks have ever had in 50 years. That's something real, based in reality, that's logical no matter how many times you say it isn't. You say you have arguments but you really don't. It's okay, we're all Canucks fans and I'll personally open the bandwagon door for you this time next year

 

[82Ninety42011]

Benning is a great scout bad GM and incompetent contract negotiator. The worst part is we had Laurence Gillman who was fired by Linden who was a genius capolagist. Not sure who negotiated contracts under Gillis tenure be it Gillis or Gillman but whoever it was they did a much better job then Benning.

 

[pgj98m3]

You're right about one thing. I do think the Canucks have been doing great things since Benning has started here. The franchise looks like it will soon be set for the next decade and excitement will be at an all time high when Boeser, Peterson, and Hughes share the same ice. The new core that Benning is putting together looks like it will rival and likely be better than any other core group of players the Canucks have ever had in 50 years. That's something real, based in reality, that's logical no matter how many times you say it isn't. You say you have arguments but you really don't. It's okay, we're all Canucks fans and I'll personally open the bandwagon door for you this time next year

You do realize that the column marked W means wins and the column marked L means losses don’t you????
And there is a column marked Pts which can be used to compare teams.
This is clearly a case of Kool-aid induced dementia.

 

[timbermen]

Why do you say that Jay Beagle isn't a good player when most fans around the league who have seen him play call him one of the best 4th line centers in the league?

You can't argue with that guy, don't even try.He's the only one here that missed the cup final apparently.