2018 Management Discussion, Pt. II

[CanaFan]

I think its pretty obvious that a bottom 5 team will have to pay a premium..The Canucks can afford to have a bottom heavy lineup for a few years..In 3-4 years they will most likely have to buck up for Petterson/Hughes...Works out fine.

I thought the premium was the term and the aav. Now it’s on NMC/NTC’s as well? Have many different “premiums” does a bottom 5 team have to pay for marginal talent? Gillis at least got good value on the AAV’s in exchange for the NMC/NTC’s. Benning seems to lose on every front.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Its in response to ryppers question....How much longer.....etc...Then you barged in.

Yup, because your response didn't really address reality. I proved you wrong. You want to ignore Benning's NTC's/NMC's that have moved on, fine. Then ignore Gillis's NTC's that have moved on.

Gillis NTC's inherited by Benning:

-Kesler
-Burrows
-Sedin
-Sedin
-Higgins
-Hamhuis
-Bieksa
-Garrison

That's 8.

Benning has given out 7 of his own.

None of Gillis's NTC's refused to waive, while we know Vrbata basically refused (by listing teams that wouldn't be interested in him), and Miller refused to waive for any non-Californian team.

The issue is how the Benning Bro's paint this picture that Gillis's NTC's handcuffed Benning. They didn't. The other issue is how people act like Gillis gave these out like candy, while ignoring that Benning has done the same thing. At least Gillis got discounts on the contracts he gave out NTC's in. Benning has paid full price (or in some cases overpaid) for players while giving them NTC's.

Maybe stop ignoring reality in order to justify supporting Jim Benning, and come to terms with the reality that we are faced with. He simply is a very bad GM.

 

[pgj98m3]

Yup, because your response didn't really address reality. I proved you wrong. You want to ignore Benning's NTC's/NMC's that have moved on, fine. Then ignore Gillis's NTC's that have moved on.

Gillis NTC's inherited by Benning:

-Kesler
-Burrows
-Sedin
-Sedin
-Higgins
-Hamhuis
-Bieksa
-Garrison

That's 8.

Benning has given out 7 of his own.

None of Gillis's NTC's refused to waive, while we know Vrbata basically refused (by listing teams that wouldn't be interested in him), and Miller refused to waive for any non-Californian team.

The issue is how the Benning Bro's paint this picture that Gillis's NTC's handcuffed Benning. They didn't. The other issue is how people act like Gillis gave these out like candy, while ignoring that Benning has done the same thing. At least Gillis got discounts on the contracts he gave out NTC's in. Benning has paid full price (or in some cases overpaid) for players while giving them NTC's.

Maybe stop ignoring reality in order to justify supporting Jim Benning, and come to terms with the reality that we are faced with. He simply is a very bad GM.

I know I’m being repetitive but apparently some on here have very limited capacity to learn.....
I simply ask the Benning supporters to compare the records of the 2 GM’s and then claim Benning is anything but a pile of burning feces.

 

[Kryten]

I know I’m being repetitive but apparently some on here have very limited capacity to learn.....
I simply ask the Benning supporters to compare the records of the 2 GM’s and then claim Benning is anything but a pile of burning feces.

It would likely be easier for them if both GMs had a similar goal, players, etc. Its been a while since we have had to rebuild. Id guess most of them dont have the time or interest in following other teams closely and that is a huge mental block affecting them.

As for contracts, trades, asset management? I have no f***ing idea what their problem is

 

[MS]

Botchford made this point a while ago, but how is there such a disconnect between the pro scouting and the amateur scouting?

Because most of the amateur scouting is done and headed up by Brackett and Gradin, and the pro scouting is straight outta the office of the GM (with significant input from the head coach).

 

[MS]

Sure...but I was initially responding to another poster who was talking about all the NTC's Benning is handing out.?..(which he isn't..there's a considerable difference between a full NTC and a LNTC)...I mean,lets just make a mountain out of a mole hill..Obviously,its just more peeps trying to find a crisis where there isn't one.

So you're admitting the Gillis NTCs for actual good players at actual good value were a fake crisis, then?

 

[pgj98m3]

So you're admitting the Gillis NTCs for actual good players at actual good value were a fake crisis, then?

Logic alert (I have lost the privilege of liking posts)

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Yup, because your response didn't really address reality. I proved you wrong. You want to ignore Benning's NTC's/NMC's that have moved on, fine. Then ignore Gillis's NTC's that have moved on.

Gillis NTC's inherited by Benning:

-Kesler
-Burrows
-Sedin
-Sedin
-Higgins
-Hamhuis
-Bieksa
-Garrison

That's 8.

Benning has given out 7 of his own.

None of Gillis's NTC's refused to waive, while we know Vrbata basically refused (by listing teams that wouldn't be interested in him), and Miller refused to waive for any non-Californian team.

The issue is how the Benning Bro's paint this picture that Gillis's NTC's handcuffed Benning. They didn't. The other issue is how people act like Gillis gave these out like candy, while ignoring that Benning has done the same thing. At least Gillis got discounts on the contracts he gave out NTC's in. Benning has paid full price (or in some cases overpaid) for players while giving them NTC's.

Maybe stop ignoring reality in order to justify supporting Jim Benning, and come to terms with the reality that we are faced with. He simply is a very bad GM.

Nice rant...!

After next season,the only full NTC's we have will be Eriksson and Edler...everyone else will have LNTC's..no biggie.
Plus we have $12.8M of cap space available..Not worried at all.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I know I’m being repetitive but apparently some on here have very limited capacity to learn.....
I simply ask the Benning supporters to compare the records of the 2 GM’s and then claim Benning is anything but a pile of burning feces.

[MOD].....One GM inherited an elite group of players entering their prime years ,the other did not...Far from an even playing field there.

and you talk about logic?..lmao.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Nice rant...!

After next season,the only full NTC's we have will be Eriksson and Edler...everyone else will have LNTC's..no biggie.
Plus we have $12.8M of cap space available..Not worried at all.

Sure, some of those NTC's are limited; however, the contracts are so bad they are practically untradeable anyway.

 

[Kryten]

Nice rant...!

After next season,the only full NTC's we have will be Eriksson and Edler...everyone else will have LNTC's..no biggie.
Plus we have $12.8M of cap space available..Not worried at all.

Actually we dont know what Edler will have since its his contract year upcoming. LNTCs dont matter? Another dumb distraction phrase you have been pushing lately. We have 10.5m cap space with Virtanen yet to sign and before Dorsetts Relief. Hurr durr

 

[pgj98m3]

Nice rant...!

After next season,the only full NTC's we have will be Eriksson and Edler...everyone else will have LNTC's..no biggie.
Plus we have $12.8M of cap space available..Not worried at all.

Of course, Benning has shown no ability to make a meaningful trade but......no worries......
Can you hook me up with whatever drugs are giving you such a complacent outlook???

 

[MS]

Arguing about this Gillis move vs. that Benning move is such a waste of time, even if it wasn't obvious how superior individual moves and cap management was under Gillis.

The main difference between the two is pretty simple.

Gillis was a leader. Same as Quinn and (much as I hate him) Burke. The guy was in charge and set a tone of excellence throughout the organization. Clear plans. High expectations, both for the team and individuals. Performance was rewarded. Surrounded himself with quality people who he didn't necessarily agree with. Didn't suffer fools. Looked for every competitive advantage.

And when you have clear leadership and direction, you're setting up a framework for success and for people to overachieve. And this is pretty intuitive - you learn more in a well-planned class with a great teacher, you perform better at your job when you have a great boss with ambition and plans. And it's not surprising that all this so-called 'inherited talent' which had missed the playoffs twice in 3 years under a bad manager and were mostly closer to 30 than 20 all had these weird development curves and got so much better when the organization was given structure.

Benning is a dithering moron with the leadership skills of a potato. No direction, no plan. Surrounds himself with yes-men. Performance is seemingly irrelevant to compensation and icetime. No expections of success. Is on the cutting edge of nothing.

The public persona of the guy is that of somebody's dementia-addled grandpa standing in the middle of the street with no pants on wondering what's happening. It's embarrassing to see him represent the team. In the draft clips, it's pathetic to see this guy look completely lost while deferring to everyone else.

Everything about the guy, who he is, and how he does his job screams 'LOSER'. And this franchise will be a loser franchise until this sad-sack moron is punted to the curb and replaced with someone with some intelligence, ideas, and ambition, and the force of personality to act on them.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Actually we dont know what Edler will have since its his contract year upcoming. LNTCs dont matter? Another dumb distraction phrase you have been pushing lately. We have 10.5m cap space with Virtanen yet to sign and before Dorsetts Relief. Hurr durr

Edler will either be traded to a contender or take a pay cut..No problem there.I hope he stays...LNTC's do matter,they are specifically set up so teams can move on from contracts that they they no longer want..Hurr dur.
In the next 3 years Sutter,Gudbranson,Baertschi,MDZ,Nillsson,Tanev,Markstrom..will all be off the books..

 

[Kryten]

Edler will either be traded to a contender or take a pay cut..No problem there.I hope he stays...LNTC's do matter,they are specifically set up so teams can move on from contracts that they they no longer want..Hurr dur.
In the next 3 years Sutter,Gudbranson,Baertschi,MDZ,Nillsson,Tanev,Markstrom..will all be off the books..

If Edler stays I expect and would be fine with him getting a raise. Of that list you are so sure of being off the books I will 100% agree on is Nilsson and MDZ. LNTCs are a fancy way of distorting the fact that it is a full NTC for atleast half the league. Shit matters

Edit. Our LNTCs are actually closer to NMCs since no other team will touch them without us losing the trade bad. So we get the worst of all angles despite some people trying to spin it as a nothing burger.

 

[pgj98m3]

Edler will either be traded to a contender or take a pay cut..No problem there.I hope he stays...LNTC's do matter,they are specifically set up so teams can move on from contracts that they they no longer want..Hurr dur.
In the next 3 years Sutter,Gudbranson,Baertschi,MDZ,Nillsson,Tanev,Markstrom..will all be off the books..

You keep on using the word trade when Benning has shown no ability to do that with any competence.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Arguing about this Gillis move vs. that Benning move is such a waste of time, even if it wasn't obvious how superior individual moves and cap management was under Gillis.

The main difference between the two is pretty simple.

Gillis was a leader. Same as Quinn and (much as I hate him) Burke. The guy was in charge and set a tone of excellence throughout the organization. Clear plans. High expectations, both for the team and individuals. Performance was rewarded. Surrounded himself with quality people who he didn't necessarily agree with. Didn't suffer fools. Looked for every competitive advantage.

And when you have clear leadership and direction, you're setting up a framework for success and for people to overachieve. And this is pretty intuitive - you learn more in a well-planned class with a great teacher, you perform better at your job when you have a great boss with ambition and plans. And it's not surprising that all this so-called 'inherited talent' which had missed the playoffs twice in 3 years under a bad manager and were mostly closer to 30 than 20 all had these weird development curves and got so much better when the organization was given structure.

Benning is a dithering moron with the leadership skills of a potato. No direction, no plan. Surrounds himself with yes-men. Performance is seemingly irrelevant to compensation and icetime. No expections of success. Is on the cutting edge of nothing.

The public persona of the guy is that of somebody's dementia-addled grandpa standing in the middle of the street with no pants on wondering what's happening. It's embarrassing to see him represent the team. In the draft clips, it's pathetic to see this guy look completely lost while deferring to everyone else.

Everything about the guy, who he is, and how he does his job screams 'LOSER'. And this franchise will be a loser franchise until this sad-sack moron is punted to the curb and replaced with someone with some intelligence, ideas, and ambition, and the force of personality to act on them.

Too much anger here MS. Benning is a loser, I agree, but I'm taking the long view of things now: May as well reap the benefits of his ineptitude. While he's here, the team will draft high. They have a good chance to get Turcotte this year, assuming they finish bottom5 again.

When looking at power house teams in the league, you need about 4 forwards, 2 dmen and 1 goalie as a base. This team's core is about 2-3 players away. He's here and they are going to be bad. May as well get a top pick before he's shot out of a cannon.

That's the silver lining to Benning. He's so bad at his job that it almost ensures a better future. When the next, hopefully competent GM is hired, he will be responsible for actually dragging the team out of the ditch. Patience.

OT question: 1%er tag?

 

[MS]

Too much anger here MS. Benning is a loser, I agree, but I'm taking the long view of things now: May as well reap the benefits of his ineptitude. While he's here, the team will draft high. They have a good chance to get Turcotte this year, assuming they finish bottom5 again.

When looking at power house teams in the league, you need about 4 forwards, 2 dmen and 1 goalie as a base. This team's core is about 2-3 players away. He's here and they are going to be bad. May as well get a top pick before he's shot out of a cannon.

That's the silver lining to Benning. He's so bad at his job that it almost ensures a better future. When the next, hopefully competent GM is hired, he will be responsible for actually dragging the team out of the ditch. Patience.

OT question: 1%er tag?

Oh, absolutely, his abject incompetence might set the team up better in the long term (similar to Pulford and Wirtz in Chicago) by complete accident, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. And the time for him to have been gone is well past - we're at the point where he's going to screw up the young talent we have ready to break in.

The 1% thing was because one of the Benning fanclub was losing his marbles and calling the anti-Benning crowd 1%ers.

 

[Kryten]

Too much anger here MS. Benning is a loser, I agree, but I'm taking the long view of things now: May as well reap the benefits of his ineptitude. While he's here, the team will draft high. They have a good chance to get Turcotte this year, assuming they finish bottom5 again.

When looking at power house teams in the league, you need about 4 forwards, 2 dmen and 1 goalie as a base. This team's core is about 2-3 players away. He's here and they are going to be bad. May as well get a top pick before he's shot out of a cannon.

That's the silver lining to Benning. He's so bad at his job that it almost ensures a better future. When the next, hopefully competent GM is hired, he will be responsible for actually dragging the team out of the ditch. Patience.

OT question: 1%er tag?

While hes here, we will draft high. The Oilers did for many years as well. There is no reason that a new GM couldnt come in with the balls to rebuild for a few extra years without giving out bad contracts and stockpiling draft picks. I fear that our window of stockpiling draft picks has passed since we lost them in trades, let players walk, and have little to no short contracts to get picks for now

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Arguing about this Gillis move vs. that Benning move is such a waste of time, even if it wasn't obvious how superior individual moves and cap management was under Gillis.

The main difference between the two is pretty simple.

Gillis was a leader. Same as Quinn and (much as I hate him) Burke. The guy was in charge and set a tone of excellence throughout the organization. Clear plans. High expectations, both for the team and individuals. Performance was rewarded. Surrounded himself with quality people who he didn't necessarily agree with. Didn't suffer fools. Looked for every competitive advantage.

And when you have clear leadership and direction, you're setting up a framework for success and for people to overachieve. And this is pretty intuitive - you learn more in a well-planned class with a great teacher, you perform better at your job when you have a great boss with ambition and plans. And it's not surprising that all this so-called 'inherited talent' which had missed the playoffs twice in 3 years under a bad manager and were mostly closer to 30 than 20 all had these weird development curves and got so much better when the organization was given structure.

Benning is a dithering moron with the leadership skills of a potato. No direction, no plan. Surrounds himself with yes-men. Performance is seemingly irrelevant to compensation and icetime. No expections of success. Is on the cutting edge of nothing.

The public persona of the guy is that of somebody's dementia-addled grandpa standing in the middle of the street with no pants on wondering what's happening. It's embarrassing to see him represent the team. In the draft clips, it's pathetic to see this guy look completely lost while deferring to everyone else.

Everything about the guy, who he is, and how he does his job screams 'LOSER'. And this franchise will be a loser franchise until this sad-sack moron is punted to the curb and replaced with someone with some intelligence, ideas, and ambition, and the force of personality to act on them.

So you're pumping Gillis' tires,and resuming your Benning trash talk..riveting stuff...

Duhatschek: Why Mike Gillis deserved to be fired

 

[MS]

So you're pumping Gillis' tires,and resuming your Benning trash talk..riveting stuff...

Duhatschek: Why Mike Gillis deserved to be fired

I've said a million times that it was perfectly fair to fire Gillis. His last couple years were not a success. I'd have preferred he was given a chance to turn things around, but it's a tough business.

Nothing to contribute aside from whining about NTCs that actually turned into an asset for the next GM?

 

[pgj98m3]

So you're pumping Gillis' tires,and resuming your Benning trash talk..riveting stuff...

Duhatschek: Why Mike Gillis deserved to be fired

Man this is so riveting.

 

[MS]

And one of the stupidest narratives here is that Gillis inherited the 2006 Penguins or 2009 Blackhawks or something like that.

These are the ages of our top players in 2008 and where their careers were at:

Sedins : 28. Considered average first-liners.
Kesler : 24. 30-something point checker after 5 years in the league. Most of the fanbase preferred taking a 2nd round pick to matching a $1.6 million contract offer the previous summer.
Burrows : 27. PK guy and nothing more.

Rest of forward group are pending UFAs and junky bit parts. Taylor Pyatt is our 3rd-leading scorer amongst returning players.

Salo : 34.
Ohlund : 32
Mitchell : 31
Bieksa : 27 and playing terribly.

Luongo : 29

This was a core that was closer to 30 (or over it) than 20, had been together for years, and accomplished zilch. Missed the playoffs twice in 3 years. Nobody thought we were going anywhere, most people thought we were just a bad team with a good goalie, and this was not a great situation for a GM to walk into.

This was a floundering team going nowhere that was completely revitalized and won 5 straight division titles once Gillis arrived and put a stamp and direction on things. To gloss over that as if it was pre-determined that this was a great group of players that was just bound to excel is nonsense.

 

[mossey3535]

Man this is so riveting.

I remember that terrible hack job of an article. The tone is just juvenile.

Good thing we brought in someone super competent after him right?

 

[Kryten]

I remember that terrible hack job of an article. The tone is just juvenile.

Good thing we brought in someone super competent after him right?

Turned a position of strength into our future captain and our current starting goalie despite being buried behind Miller for three years