Speculation: 2018-2019 Sharks Roster Discussion Part II

[TomasHertlsRooster]

And thank you.

I’ve gone well into the legitimate reasons why I’ve wanted DeBoer or Wilson fired plenty of times. You may or may not agree with them but you can’t deny that they’re legitimate and have been articulated plenty with far more civility towards other posters (on this forum) than Kurz shows to people that should be his target audience.

I’m also not paid for what I post on here and I don’t represent a large organization when I do so, and therefore you shouldn’t expect me to be as professional as Kurz. Yet I still don’t generally come across with anywhere near as smug of a tone as Kurz does with most of his statements. Saying “you can leave a comment about how wrong you were ” after an 18 game sample size where they’re 4th in points percentage is something.

In this case, I’m fine with keeping DeBoer as long as the team continues to play this way, but, I would still fire him if a top coach like Joel Quenneville were available.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

No they haven't.

And that is EXACTLY my point. Thank you.

Actually the point you just made is that you have absolutely no respect for people and their positions if they happen to differ from yours.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Kurz stirring things up is getting him clicks, eyes, and attention. Had he written something anodyne like many other journalists, it wouldn't get any attention. Can we blame him for doing what he has to do to survive in this media environment?

On top of that, I remember all the crap he had to take. There was that Sundstrom character who completely belittled him and straw-manned anything Kurz (or anyone had to say). If I remember correctly, Kurz had mentioned (pre-Jones) a list of SJ's best goaltenders and had put Irbe #2, ahead of Niemi. Sundstrom laughed at him and quoted Irbe's numbers; Kurz basically said "watch the games" and Sundstrom completely tore into him, insulting his age and intelligence, and basically ripping into pre-2000s hockey players.

There was a period between say 2013 and 2016 where analytics was worshipped as a religion, with it having all the answers with regards to hockey, and any other narrative about character, culture, or that other "c" word was fervently derided. It was particularly bad in Sharks-related circles because the fanbase is a bit more...mathematically-minded, and because analytics painted a rosy picture of those constantly failing Sharks teams. The fad naturally running its course and the Sharks's run to the finals shook people out of it, but I am sure Kurz hasn't gotten over some of the hot and vituperative takes he was constantly bombarded with.

 

[tiburon12]

Kurz stirring things up is getting him clicks, eyes, and attention. Had he written something anodyne like many other journalists, it wouldn't get any attention. Can we blame him for doing what he has to do to survive in this media environment?

On top of that, I remember all the crap he had to take. There was that Sundstrom character who completely belittled him and straw-manned anything Kurz (or anyone had to say). If I remember correctly, Kurz had mentioned (pre-Jones) a list of SJ's best goaltenders and had put Irbe #2, ahead of Niemi. Sundstrom laughed at him and quoted Irbe's numbers; Kurz basically said "watch the games" and Sundstrom completely tore into him, insulting his age and intelligence, and basically ripping into pre-2000s hockey players.

There was a period between say 2013 and 2016 where analytics was worshipped as a religion, with it having all the answers with regards to hockey, and any other narrative about character, culture, or that other "c" word was fervently derided. It was particularly bad in Sharks-related circles because the fanbase is a bit more...mathematically-minded, and because analytics painted a rosy picture of those constantly failing Sharks teams. The fad naturally running its course and the Sharks's run to the finals shook people out of it, but I am sure Kurz hasn't gotten over some of the hot and vituperative takes he was constantly bombarded with.

Great post (and great diction!). wasn't that sundstrom character behind FTF for a while? Better than that Bensch character.

I think you are spot on with Kurz. Being divisive on Twitter to generate clicks is not new ground, and it's pretty obvious to me what kurz is doing. He actually tweeted something recently like "i'm going to try to move conversations from Twitter to my Athletic story's comments sections". He's just doing it for the clicks.

Someone early posted about the smugness of the Athletic people, posting shit like "my top stories" and "why i chose the Athletic", but it's really clear those are directives from senior people in the company, compulsory social media posts to draw eyeballs. Media seems like a dog-eat-dog world right now, gotta do what you gotta do to keep your head above water. Give the Athletic credit though - startups live and die by human capital, and they stocked their cupboard with talent.

@JtR, your points are definitely valid about coaching/gm change, so please don't take this as criticism of them. Having said that, Kurz has a point that during the time people were clamoring for a change, PDB made a change with assistant coaches and it paid off. He doesn't have to be an ass about it, which i think is your overall point.

Having said that, don't entertain his stuff if you dont agree. He's just trolling, and you know trolls feed of people who get "triggered" by trolling. Your posts above just fuel his fire. Personally, i think he's funny because he totally get's people riled up (that's my kind of humor too). approach him from a different angle / don't waste energy on him if it get's you going.

 

[KarlssonsGroin]

Idk what you are talking about. I didnt even post on this board during that time.....

i should of been clearer, you werent one of those guys saying that, but there was a significant portion of people here who thought Schlemko was worth going to 4-4 for.

There was a period between say 2013 and 2016 where analytics was worshipped as a religion, with it having all the answers with regards to hockey, and any other narrative about character, culture, or that other "c" word was fervently derided. It was particularly bad in Sharks-related circles because the fanbase is a bit more...mathematically-minded, and because analytics painted a rosy picture of those constantly failing Sharks teams. The fad naturally running its course and the Sharks's run to the finals shook people out of it, but I am sure Kurz hasn't gotten over some of the hot and vituperative takes he was constantly bombarded with.

hit the nail on the head right here.

 

[Barrie22]

i should of been clearer, you werent one of those guys saying that, but there was a significant portion of people here who thought Schlemko was worth going to 4-4 for.



hit the nail on the head right here.

It was worth going 4 and 4 though to keep schlemko. He at the time was more important then tierney, karlsson, carpenter.

 

[Patty Ice]

Now that Karlsson is comfortable with the team, is it time to revisit pairing him with Vlasic?

Just something I'm asking myself this morning.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Kurz stirring things up is getting him clicks, eyes, and attention. Had he written something anodyne like many other journalists, it wouldn't get any attention. Can we blame him for doing what he has to do to survive in this media environment?

On top of that, I remember all the crap he had to take. There was that Sundstrom character who completely belittled him and straw-manned anything Kurz (or anyone had to say). If I remember correctly, Kurz had mentioned (pre-Jones) a list of SJ's best goaltenders and had put Irbe #2, ahead of Niemi. Sundstrom laughed at him and quoted Irbe's numbers; Kurz basically said "watch the games" and Sundstrom completely tore into him, insulting his age and intelligence, and basically ripping into pre-2000s hockey players.

There was a period between say 2013 and 2016 where analytics was worshipped as a religion, with it having all the answers with regards to hockey, and any other narrative about character, culture, or that other "c" word was fervently derided. It was particularly bad in Sharks-related circles because the fanbase is a bit more...mathematically-minded, and because analytics painted a rosy picture of those constantly failing Sharks teams. The fad naturally running its course and the Sharks's run to the finals shook people out of it, but I am sure Kurz hasn't gotten over some of the hot and vituperative takes he was constantly bombarded with.

Kurz stirring things up would be acceptable if he had established any sense of credibility but he never has and likely never will. If your argument is basically watch the games, you deserve to have that torn into because it's not an actual argument. And quite honestly when you use language like analytics being worshiped as a religion, it's hard to take your point seriously because you are purposely exaggerating the situation because of your view on that particular subject already being biased against it coming into it. It again denotes a complete lack of respect for people who hold those views. Can people use the data inappropriately? Yeah but you're making no distinction between those that do and those that don't and lumping them all together and telling them in so many words that they're wrong or idiots for having that influence their opinion. If you want to bitch and moan about people tearing into others then essentially do the same, why should I take your opinion on it seriously? At least the analytics crowd is offering data to support their opinion. The alternative is cliches and fluff but both sides tend to have an attitude behind it. You want to call it worshiping analytics. The other crowd would look at you and say you just worship the people that make the decisions. I don't see a difference.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Now that Karlsson is comfortable with the team, is it time to revisit pairing him with Vlasic?

Just something I'm asking myself this morning.

No.

 

[Alaskanice]

Kurz stirring things up is getting him clicks, eyes, and attention. Had he written something anodyne like many other journalists, it wouldn't get any attention. Can we blame him for doing what he has to do to survive in this media environment?

On top of that, I remember all the crap he had to take. There was that Sundstrom character who completely belittled him and straw-manned anything Kurz (or anyone had to say). If I remember correctly, Kurz had mentioned (pre-Jones) a list of SJ's best goaltenders and had put Irbe #2, ahead of Niemi. Sundstrom laughed at him and quoted Irbe's numbers; Kurz basically said "watch the games" and Sundstrom completely tore into him, insulting his age and intelligence, and basically ripping into pre-2000s hockey players.

There was a period between say 2013 and 2016 where analytics was worshipped as a religion, with it having all the answers with regards to hockey, and any other narrative about character, culture, or that other "c" word was fervently derided. It was particularly bad in Sharks-related circles because the fanbase is a bit more...mathematically-minded, and because analytics painted a rosy picture of those constantly failing Sharks teams. The fad naturally running its course and the Sharks's run to the finals shook people out of it, but I am sure Kurz hasn't gotten over some of the hot and vituperative takes he was constantly bombarded with.

Did you really use the word, vituperative? Bravo!

 

[Patty Ice]

No.

Why not? Right now you want to see if splitting Vlasic and Braun pairing will improve both. Why not give EK and Pickles another shot?

 

[KarlssonsGroin]

It was worth going 4 and 4 though to keep schlemko. He at the time was more important then tierney, karlsson, carpenter.

Schlemko was traded for a 5th after being taken. Do you think we can sub that 5th in for tierney to make the EK trade?

if not Tierney was more valuable.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Why not? Right now you want to see if splitting Vlasic and Braun pairing will improve both. Why not give EK and Pickles another shot?

Because Vlasic has not shown commitment to playing defense this year. Not sure what is going on but he is just not there mentally this year. All he has done, in limited showings of that pairing, is dragged EK65 down. The reward at the chance of improving both Vlasic and Braun is not worth the potential cost of negatively impacting EK65, who has been arguably the best Sharks player for the last 15+ games.

 

[Patty Ice]

Because Vlasic has not shown commitment to playing defense this year. Not sure what is going on but he is just not there mentally this year. All he has done, in limited showings of that pairing, is dragged EK65 down. The reward at the chance of improving both Vlasic and Braun is not worth the potential cost of negatively impacting EK65, who has been arguably the best Sharks player for the last 15+ games.

I'm of the belief that the only person that could affect a generational talent like EK is himself while he can boost the players around him. I'd want to get Vlasic going and confident come playoff time.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I'm of the belief that the only person that could affect a generational talent like EK is himself while he can boost the players around him. I'd want to get Vlasic going and confident come playoff time.

And I don't think playing with EK65 necessarily does anything for Vlasic's confidence. Sounds cliche, but only Vlasic can help Vlasic right now. Once he goes back to playing his steady Eddie style of hockey, he will be fine and we can re-visit the Vlasic-EK65 pairing at that time. You want to get him the confidence back, you play Vlasic-Braun as our 3rd D pairing right now, which they really are on our team and don't give them shutdown minutes against the top lines of other teams.

I, like many others, had already decided before the season started that Vlasic-EK65 was going to be the best NHL pairing. It has been a major disappointment to say the least.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Why not? Right now you want to see if splitting Vlasic and Braun pairing will improve both. Why not give EK and Pickles another shot?

For one, Dillon and Karlsson are working well; if it isn't broke and everything. For two, Vlasic is dragging down Braun this year and could do the same for Karlsson.

On top of that, Dillon-Braun really isn't a great pairing since both players are best in complementary roles.

 

[Patty Ice]

For one, Dillon and Karlsson are working well; if it isn't broke and everything. For two, Vlasic is dragging down Braun this year and could do the same for Karlsson.

On top of that, Dillon-Braun really isn't a great pairing since both players are best in complementary roles.

That is the only legitimate reason in my eyes. To have 3 legit pairings hoping that Vlasic and Braun get back on track under sheltered minutes. Vlasic is not going to drag Karlsson down. That notion is just ridiculous.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

For one, Dillon and Karlsson are working well; if it isn't broke and everything. For two, Vlasic is dragging down Braun this year and could do the same for Karlsson.

On top of that, Dillon-Braun really isn't a great pairing since both players are best in complementary roles.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too. Who do you really pair Braun with? Simek may actually work better than Dillon to be honest if we did go that route.

Vlasic-EK65
Dillon-Burns
Simek-Braun

But that would completely destroy any chemistry that our D has. Honestly, there is no room for both Braun and Vlasic on our team. One of the main issues with that pairing has always been that they are not the best puck movers. You try Vlasic with Heed or Roy or DeSimone. Players that can actually move the puck. But again, to make that pairing work, Vlasic has to be ok with not driving the play every time he gets the puck on his stick.

Vlasic is not the worst puck mover but that is most definitely not one of his strengths. Especially if he gets caught pinching and out of position in the offensive zone like he has been this year. I think if we do decide to go Vlasic-EK65 at some point, you need to pretty much sit (or trade Braun).

Vlasic-EK65
Simek-Burns
Dillon-Heed

 

[hockeyball]

I wouldn't mess with it, Dillon looks great out there, he's earned his spot until he hasn't. Vlasic hasn't earned any special consideration this year, and Simek and Burns had instant chemistry and also look great.

Honestly, I hope Braun gets healthy before Vlasic and get a game or two with one of Ryan/Heed and see how that goes. Vegas proved you don't need top end D to win, you just need good skaters and puck movers. Vlasic is a good skater, but he plays a slow game anyway, and he can't move the puck. We are winning these games without him for a good reason, even if Vlasic is better than Heed, Heed can move the damn puck.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Vlasic-EK65
Simek-Burns
Dillon-Heed

While I think that might work...were I a coach, I might be thinking...what does that get me? Dillon-Heed is just fluff. Players who at best get tertiary ES minutes and secondary special-teams minutes.

With the lineup the way it usually is, DeBoer has Burns AND Karlsson for the offense. When the team needs defense, he has Vlasic-Braun. I think he is killing them with their deployment and it isn't necessary, but Vlasic-Braun gives DeBoer a top PK pair and top shutdown pair when the Sharks are up by one with a minute to go. More options.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I wouldn't mess with it, Dillon looks great out there, he's earned his spot until he hasn't. Vlasic hasn't earned any special consideration this year, and Simek and Burns had instant chemistry and also look great.

Honestly, I hope Braun gets healthy before Vlasic and get a game or two with one of Ryan/Heed and see how that goes. Vegas proved you don't need top end D to win, you just need good skaters and puck movers. Vlasic is a good skater, but he plays a slow game anyway, and he can't move the puck. We are winning these games without him for a good reason, even if Vlasic is better than Heed, Heed can move the damn puck.

Yeah. The way Vlasic is playing right now, it seems like its trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. If he continues playing that way and is constantly matched up against the top-lines, it does not really matter who he is paired with.

 

[SjMilhouse]

I'm actually a little annoyed Vlasic got himself hurt after Braun went down. I've loved the Simek/Burns pairing so far and would have been really interested to see how Ryan or Heed with Vlasic would look as our 3rd pairing.

I think the main issue is that PDB is going to continue to ride Vlasic with whoever he's with against other teams top lines despite the fact that EK65 and Burns have shown over the last 3 games that they can handle those minutes and still score

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I'm for revisiting Vlasic-Karlsson but in the way that they utilize Burns-Karlsson to where it's sporadic shifts and not the predominant setup until one can feel confident that Vlasic has turned it around which I think he will with that sort of usage.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

While I think that might work...were I a coach, I might be thinking...what does that get me? Dillon-Heed is just fluff. Players who at best get tertiary ES minutes and secondary special-teams minutes.

With the lineup the way it usually is, DeBoer has Burns AND Karlsson for the offense. When the team needs defense, he has Vlasic-Braun. I think he is killing them with their deployment and it isn't necessary, but Vlasic-Braun gives DeBoer a top PK pair and top shutdown pair when the Sharks are up by one with a minute to go. More options.

Problem is that Vlasic-Braun have really not been a top shutdown pair this year. They certainly have not played like one.

 

[Herschel]

I'm for revisiting Vlasic-Karlsson but in the way that they utilize Burns-Karlsson to where it's sporadic shifts and not the predominant setup until one can feel confident that Vlasic has turned it around which I think he will with that sort of usage.

^^^^This is a much more likely option to explore.

Assumptions
- Vlasic is going to draw back in over Ryan at the earliest chance. You might not like it but it is going to happen
- Burns and EK65 shouldn't play more than 25-26 minutes per game as an average.

When healthy do you shift some of the Ozone starts to Vlasic and in turn shift the Dzone starts to EK65? Basically, do you stop treating the Vlasic pairing as a shutdown group and instead play them like a solid 3rd pairing that doesn't need sheltering?