Line Combos: 2018 -2019 Line/D Pairing discussions & proposals - II

[smack66]

Well if Wagner and Kuraly are doing their thing on the forecheck, the 3rd guy shouldn't be in there most of the time anyways, someone has to stay out high. JFK can do that just fine.

Doesn't matter I guess, the Bruins management team has their antiquated philosophy to roster composition so who am I to argue with those geniuses.

I dont think the problem is so much the antiquated philosophy, it's more the lack of philosophy and any clear identity on this team.
let's play Backes and Acciari because, well I'm not sure why, maybe our identity is bangers... but then lets get rid of quaider because his style is out date we need small fast mobile D like Gryz...
very confusing philosophy.

 

[BruinDust]

I dont think the problem is so much the antiquated philosophy, it's more the lack of philosophy and any clear identity on this team.
let's play Backes and Acciari because, well I'm not sure why, maybe our identity is bangers... but then lets get rid of quaider because his style is out date we need small fast mobile D like Gryz...
very confusing philosophy.

They seem to know how to build a modern day D-corps. Seems like they've gotten the program on needing two capable goaltenders.

It's their blue-print for their forward group that is behind the times.

 

[BruinDust]

That’s an issue. They draft these skill guys, then .....

Can’t play them on the 4th line heaven forfend. Bruins have done this forever it seems.

Can’t play them on the 3rd line, they are 100 foot players in the offensive end, can’t have them learn on the job.

Leaves top6

Wait, five of the top six is here 3 years minimum.

What's the point of continuing to draft skilled forwards when they've got their mind made up that it's either one of the top two lines or they don't have a place to play. If that's the plan time to start drafting some bigger players so at least then they can incorporate young guys into the line-up and the likes of Noel Acciari won't have their roster spots and one-way contracts handed to them on a silver platter.

 

[LouJersey]

Why play guys like Donato and JFK on the 4th line when they don’t have as big of an impact as the guys there now? The best thing for them is to get big minutes in Providence to work on those skills, because if they were ready they wouldn’t be sent down.

Donato had no impact on a game if he didn’t score.

JFK had a few points but didn’t show enough offense to justify a top 9 spot imo. That whole line couldn’t do much in the offensive zone outside a few great plays.

I understand and you make great points. But they will more than likely not play bottom 6 roles. They put all the pressure on the top line, Hope Krejci stays motivated, hope DeBrusk can pick up play and Cehlarik is all of a sudden legit top 6

 

[bob27]

Now that the entire bottom-6 sans Heinen is all size and grit, I expect them to win every game from here till the end of the season . Not that I mind guys like Fredric who is by most accounts talented hockey player first and gritty banger second.

 

[Mainehockey33]

I understand and you make great points. But they will more than likely not play bottom 6 roles. They put all the pressure on the top line, Hope Krejci stays motivated, hope DeBrusk can pick up play and Cehlarik is all of a sudden legit top 6

I think one way or another, the 3rd line will get fixed. In the meantime hopefully Frederic produces.

 

[LouJersey]

What's the point of continuing to draft skilled forwards when they've got their mind made up that it's either one of the top two lines or they don't have a place to play. If that's the plan time to start drafting some bigger players so at least then they can incorporate young guys into the line-up and the likes of Noel Acciari won't have their roster spots and one-way contracts handed to them on a silver platter.

Well that’s the reason they pass on guys like Barzal, Connor, DeBrincat and Vesalainen. It’s really a flawed philosophy in the long run IMO. They took a chance on Pasta and look how that turned out

 

[BruinDust]

Well that’s the reason they pass on guys like Barzal, Connor, DeBrincat and Vesalainen. It’s really a flawed philosophy in the long run IMO. They took a chance on Pasta and look how that turned out

It is, take the BPA and go from there. Pretty simple really.

 

[wintersej]

What's the point of continuing to draft skilled forwards when they've got their mind made up that it's either one of the top two lines or they don't have a place to play. If that's the plan time to start drafting some bigger players so at least then they can incorporate young guys into the line-up and the likes of Noel Acciari won't have their roster spots and one-way contracts handed to them on a silver platter.

Did they not go into the year hoping that JFK, Frederic, Studnicka, Donato, and Bjork would all be making runs at the top 9? Instead none of those guys has secured a top 9 role. You can argue that they overrated their young skill guys. But it wasn’t the plan to run two 4th lines. Come on.

As far as drafting? The plan looks pretty obvious from here. They have drafted a lot of d-men. They take longer to develop and they badly needed to rebuild the D. And they clearly have done a great job with that.

They have drafted a lot of two way centers. We call all piss and moan about Barzal, which was a clear miss by several teams, but Chicago, Boston, and LA won a lot of Cups based off a strong top 4 and two way centers.

At the wing, they drafted potential goal scorers like Pasta, DeBrusk, Donato, Bjork, Lauko, etc.

This team knows they need more talent up front. Hence going for Tavares. Or Kovi, the least defensively responsible guy of his generation. Or all the names we are hearing now. And the ones we are not.

I get the frustration with the plugs trying to win 0-0 by being gritty. But despite the JFK line getting more than 75% of their starts on the offensive side of the red line (taking away those shifts from 37 or 46 mind you) I would argue they were clearly out played by Kulary and company these last few weeks.

Cassidy said that they always wanted to get a look at Frederic but that him getting injured early kinda messed up the timing. 10 points in 12 games while being far more physically ready than JFK makes a peek here seem like a good idea.

 

[wintersej]

Well that’s the reason they pass on guys like Barzal, Connor, DeBrincat and Vesalainen. It’s really a flawed philosophy in the long run IMO. They took a chance on Pasta and look how that turned out

I was under the impression they liked Connor on ice, but they didnt like the interview and got the impression he didn’t want to be there. Right after having to trade Hamilton for not wanting to be there.

Barzal sure, he was Rondo in junior and they (and a lot of teams) misjudged. Even more teams misjudged on Cat.

I’d still take Vaak over Vesalainen. Point is they have certainly drafted more d-men and centers the last few drafts. And they need some more scoring wingers to hit. And Senyshyn, Bjork, Donato, Lauko have not hit like Pasta and DeBrusk did. Huh, that’s a lot of potential scoring wingers they have drafted. I thought they didn’t do that? Weird.

 

[BruinDust]

Did they not go into the year hoping that JFK, Frederic, Studnicka, Donato, and Bjork would all be making runs at the top 9? Instead none of those guys has secured a top 9 role. You can argue that they overrated their young skill guys. But it wasn’t the plan to run two 4th lines. Come on.

As far as drafting? The plan looks pretty obvious from here. They have drafted a lot of d-men. They take longer to develop and they badly needed to rebuild the D. And they clearly have done a great job with that.

They have drafted a lot of two way centers. We call all piss and moan about Barzal, which was a clear miss by several teams, but Chicago, Boston, and LA won a lot of Cups based off a strong top 4 and two way centers.

At the wing, they drafted potential goal scorers like Pasta, DeBrusk, Donato, Bjork, Lauko, etc.

This team knows they need more talent up front. Hence going for Tavares. Or Kovi, the least defensively responsible guy of his generation. Or all the names we are hearing now. And the ones we are not.

I get the frustration with the plugs trying to win 0-0 by being gritty. But despite the JFK line getting more than 75% of their starts on the offensive side of the red line (taking away those shifts from 37 or 46 mind you) I would argue they were clearly out played by Kulary and company these last few weeks.

Cassidy said that they always wanted to get a look at Frederic but that him getting injured early kinda messed up the timing. 10 points in 12 games while being far more physically ready than JFK makes a peek here seem like a good idea.

Well most of the wingers in question were here prior to Sweeney's ascension to the throne.

The plan wasn't to run two 4th lines. But they clearly believe in a defined Top 6/Bottom 6.

 

[Estlin]

Did they not go into the year hoping that JFK, Frederic, Studnicka, Donato, and Bjork would all be making runs at the top 9? Instead none of those guys has secured a top 9 role. You can argue that they overrated their young skill guys. But it wasn’t the plan to run two 4th lines. Come on.

Boston, which already had Kuraly and Acciari, also signed Wagner and Nordstrom. It also picked up Gemel Smith on waivers. Those moves sure seem like the Bruins wanted two fourth lines.

As for the young players that you mentioned, I don’t think that the Bruins seriously expected JFK, Studnicka and Frederic to make the team out of camp, and Bjork was just coming off long-term rehab for his injured shoulder.

 

[LouJersey]

I was under the impression they liked Connor on ice, but they didnt like the interview and got the impression he didn’t want to be there. Right after having to trade Hamilton for not wanting to be there.

Barzal sure, he was Rondo in junior and they (and a lot of teams) misjudged. Even more teams misjudged on Cat.

I’d still take Vaak over Vesalainen. Point is they have certainly drafted more d-men and centers the last few drafts. And they need some more scoring wingers to hit. And Senyshyn, Bjork, Donato, Lauko have not hit like Pasta and DeBrusk did. Huh, that’s a lot of potential scoring wingers they have drafted. I thought they didn’t do that? Weird.

Other than Donato, all of those guys were viewed as 200 ft players. I'm not even saying they should do it every time, I think their draft record is very good overall, but a mix wouldn't kill them at times. I love the players taken as well, but it's easier to teach defense then transplant God given offensive ability.

 

[BruinDust]

Boston, which already had Kuraly and Acciari, also signed Wagner and Nordstrom. It also picked up Gemel Smith on waivers. Those moves sure seem like the Bruins wanted two fourth lines.

As for the young players that you mentioned, I don’t think that the Bruins seriously expected JFK, Studnicka and Frederic to make the team out of camp, and Bjork was just coming off long-term rehab for his injured shoulder.

I think what the Bruins were going for was they were going to leave 2 of the 13 forward roster spots for two of the young guys. They figured out of Frederic, JFK, Studnicka, Bjork, Donato, and Cehlarik, two of them might make it, and they were hoping one would be a winger and one would be a center. 11 of the 13 spots were accounted for regardless of training camp performance. Noel Acciari could of pee'd in Cassidy's morning coffee and he was still making this team no matter what, as was the rest of the 4th liners. This organization has it's mind made up what type of 4th line they desire, to the point where they go out of their way to make it so.

This was also impacted by both one-way contracts and waiver eligibility. If you look at their line-ups from pre-season this seems pretty clear the initial plan.

Marchand - Bergeron - Pastrnak

Debrusk - Krejci - Heinen or Young Winger

Heinen or Young Winger - Young Center - Backes

4th line - combination of Nordstrom - Kuraly - Wagner - Acciari

So a young guy had really zero chance of a 4th line spot.

The problem began with no young winger stepping up and really grabbing that spot alongside Krejci and Debrusk. Heinen was tried there but it really never worked.

Then no young C looked ready coming out of camp. JFK was underwhelming in pre-season/camp. Frederic looked a bit overmatched against pre-season line-ups with mostly NHLers. Studnicka was always up against it with him having to go back to the OHL if he wasn't in Boston.

The hair in the soup was Backes didn't and doesn't look like a Top 9 player anymore, and really is just one more veteran 4th liner to add to a roster that already was carrying four 4th line players.

Then Heinen wasn't producing so it amplified the issue with Backes.

So it all snowballed into a perfect storm of issues putting together the 2nd and 3rd lines.

@LSCII hit the nail on the head when he said these recent moves are all about Backes. The experiment IMO with Backes w/ Debrusk and Krejci I think changed their thoughts on what to do. Backes looked like a fish out of water with those two. Backes himself talked about predictability and playing with two guys who play "simpler" games like Acciari and Kuraly should make it easier on him. You could see with Debrusk/Krejci he wasn't sure where to go and did a lot of puck watching.

So I think they've decided that if Backes is in the line-up they need to play him with somewhat similar players. And if they aren't using him on the 4th line, they need similar players to Backes on the 3rd line.

Hence the recall of Frederic.

The fallacy of this method IMO is having such a pre-disposition to what they want each line to look like, it really hand-cuffs them in terms of roster and line-up decisions. Personally I don't think that works but that's what they do.

 

[PlayMakers]

Boston, which already had Kuraly and Acciari, also signed Wagner and Nordstrom. It also picked up Gemel Smith on waivers. Those moves sure seem like the Bruins wanted two fourth lines.

As for the young players that you mentioned, I don’t think that the Bruins seriously expected JFK, Studnicka and Frederic to make the team out of camp, and Bjork was just coming off long-term rehab for his injured shoulder.

I don't think the Bruins wanted two fourth lines. We know for a fact the plan was for one of JFK/Frederic/Studnicka to win the 3rd line center role, and Kuraly was the worst case scenario/figure it out at the deadline plan D. Sweeney said so on many occasions leading up to camp.

They added Wagner to play on the 4th line and Nordstrom to be that swiss army spare. They only claimed Gemel Smith on waivers because they were ravaged by injuries and put him right back on waivers as soon as they got healthy.

Unfortunately, the worst case scenario was the reality. JFK and Frederic weren't quite ready, then Frederic got injured. Kuraly struggled early on and looks a little lost when he plays with talent. And here we are, still auditioning JFK and Frederic and/or planning to figure it out at the deadline.

 

[wintersej]

I think what the Bruins were going for was they were going to leave 2 of the 13 forward roster spots for two of the young guys. They figured out of Frederic, JFK, Studnicka, Bjork, Donato, and Cehlarik, two of them might make it, and they were hoping one would be a winger and one would be a center. 11 of the 13 spots were accounted for regardless of training camp performance. Noel Acciari could of pee'd in Cassidy's morning coffee and he was still making this team no matter what, as was the rest of the 4th liners. This organization has it's mind made up what type of 4th line they desire, to the point where they go out of their way to make it so.

This was also impacted by both one-way contracts and waiver eligibility. If you look at their line-ups from pre-season this seems pretty clear the initial plan.

Marchand - Bergeron - Pastrnak

Debrusk - Krejci - Heinen or Young Winger

Heinen or Young Winger - Young Center - Backes

4th line - combination of Nordstrom - Kuraly - Wagner - Acciari

So a young guy had really zero chance of a 4th line spot.

The problem began with no young winger stepping up and really grabbing that spot alongside Krejci and Debrusk. Heinen was tried there but it really never worked.

Then no young C looked ready coming out of camp. JFK was underwhelming in pre-season/camp. Frederic looked a bit overmatched against pre-season line-ups with mostly NHLers. Studnicka was always up against it with him having to go back to the OHL if he wasn't in Boston.

The hair in the soup was Backes didn't and doesn't look like a Top 9 player anymore, and really is just one more veteran 4th liner to add to a roster that already was carrying four 4th line players.

Then Heinen wasn't producing so it amplified the issue with Backes.

So it all snowballed into a perfect storm of issues putting together the 2nd and 3rd lines.

@LSCII hit the nail on the head when he said these recent moves are all about Backes. The experiment IMO with Backes w/ Debrusk and Krejci I think changed their thoughts on what to do. Backes looked like a fish out of water with those two. Backes himself talked about predictability and playing with two guys who play "simpler" games like Acciari and Kuraly should make it easier on him. You could see with Debrusk/Krejci he wasn't sure where to go and did a lot of puck watching.

So I think they've decided that if Backes is in the line-up they need to play him with somewhat similar players. And if they aren't using him on the 4th line, they need similar players to Backes on the 3rd line.

Hence the recall of Frederic.

The fallacy of this method IMO is having such a pre-disposition to what they want each line to look like, it really hand-cuffs them in terms of roster and line-up decisions. Personally I don't think that works but that's what they do.

I find you a very reasonable poster that I agree with a lot. And I don't disagree with your analysis above. Heinen and Backes not producing like last year just destroyed them.

But, I don't understand why you are down on the idea of adding a guy who has had a better run the last dozen games than JFK ever did? And doesn't making Backes useful make them a better team? I don't know why you are freaking out about them trying some stuff a month before the TDL.

I also think it is silly to think that if the kids outplayed all the guys on the 4th line they would be kept out of the lineup because the team had already decided something. Gryz has knocked Moore out of the lineup. Cehlarik has moved Donato out of the lineup. They wanted to split 63/37/88 but decided they couldn't. They have been very open to trying stuff. The 4th line, even with 55, has been a very consistent line for them.

 

[BruinDust]

I find you a very reasonable poster that I agree with a lot. And I don't disagree with your analysis above. Heinen and Backes not producing like last year just destroyed them.

But, I don't understand why you are down on the idea of adding a guy who has had a better run the last dozen games than JFK ever did? And doesn't making Backes useful make them a better team? I don't know why you are freaking out about them trying some stuff a month before the TDL.

I also think it is silly to think that if the kids outplayed all the guys on the 4th line they would be kept out of the lineup because the team had already decided something. Gryz has knocked Moore out of the lineup. Cehlarik has moved Donato out of the lineup. They wanted to split 63/37/88 but decided they couldn't. They have been very open to trying stuff. The 4th line, even with 55, has been a very consistent line for them.

I just think they should of kept JFK in the line-up at least until his play tailed off. I have no problem with Frederic being given an opportunity, even as 3rd line C. If I'm developing a player such as JFK, I'm not doing anything to hurt his confidence when his play is on an upward swing. And if that means scratching another player or breaking up a 4th line, so be it. I think JFK gets lumped in with Donato too much, Donato has been very inconsistent. Lights out one game, a ghost the next. JFK has been consistently getting better since his recall, a little bit every day, each game.

But sorry from watching this management team and coaching staff, the believe in the traditional 4th line approach. Never say never, but the young forwards in camp had a 0.01% chance of breaking in on the 4th line. Even a guy like Frederic whose skill-set would be applicable to a 4th line center role had zero chance because this management group had their minds made up in July on who would comprise the 4th line. It was going to be Nordstrom-Acciari-Wagner-Kuraly. That was the plan since before July 1st when they prioritized Nordstrom and Wagner.

The 4th line has been good the last 6 weeks or so. It was dreadful before that. So I wouldn't say its been consistent.

Didn't matter, they believe an energy line is a necessity. I think they are wrong. It is to their detriment both short and long term to make this type of line and player a requirement for a successful team.

 

[Yeti34]

I'm leaning more and more to this team holding pat and not making a move mainly because we would need to move out one of our promising prospects at a low value and/or a first round pick.

I dont think selling low on Donato JFK, Heinen, Frederick, or any of the other promising young guys is the answer

 

[Estlin]

Didn't matter, they believe an energy line is a necessity. I think they are wrong. It is to their detriment both short and long term to make this type of line and player a requirement for a successful team.

I agree with this. I really wish that Boston would jettison the idea of an energy line comprised of low-skill (or no-skill) grinders. The fourth line should have players who have decent speed, are skilled and can put the puck in the net. They can also easily be taught how to kill penalties. The Bruins have enough young wingers in Boston or in Providence that they can almost all eventually be incorporated into the forward group if the organization chooses to rethink its vision of what a fourth line can be.

Marchand-Pastrnak
Debrusk-Bjork
Donato-Senyshyn
Heinen-Cehlarik

 

[BruinDust]

I agree with this. I really wish that Boston would jettison the idea of an energy line comprised of low-skill (or no-skill) grinders. The fourth line should have players who have decent speed, are skilled and can put the puck in the net. They can also easily be taught how to kill penalties. The Bruins have enough young wingers in Boston or in Providence that they can almost all eventually be incorporated into the forward group if the organization chooses to rethink its vision of what a fourth line can be.

Marchand-Pastrnak
Debrusk-Bjork
Donato-Senyshyn
Heinen-Cehlarik

Seriously though what are they going to do if by some chance most of their young forwards pop? Are they going to jettison some of them because they already have a group of 4th line pluggers occupying 3 spots on the 4th line and the young players are limited to spots on the top 3 lines, which long-term only looks like it has 3 winger spots available regardless.

Maybe, just maybe, the best approach is to play the 12 best players.

 

[Tbrady12]

Seriously though what are they going to do if by some chance most of their young forwards pop? Are they going to jettison some of them because they already have a group of 4th line pluggers occupying 3 spots on the 4th line and the young players are limited to spots on the top 3 lines, which long-term only looks like it has 3 winger spots available regardless.

Maybe, just maybe, the best approach is to play the 12 best players.

I think you both need to go take a look at the 5 vs 5 scoring for this team. Take away the PP goals and Kuraly and Wagner are the 3rd line. So to say they are pluggers, isn't close to reality. They also have close to 50% face-off percentage, are two of the top PK guys and are #1 and #3 in hits for this team. Playing close to 12 to 13 minutes a night. They also match up against the other teams top line on almost every D zone face off. This pairing and line is way more valuable than you give them credit for as PLUGS.

Toss in the fact that they are also not minus players at this point and i'd say they've done a great job.

 

[BruinDust]

I think you both need to go take a look at the 5 vs 5 scoring for this team. Take away the PP goals and Kuraly and Wagner are the 3rd line. So to say they are pluggers, isn't close to reality. They also have close to 50% face-off percentage, are two of the top PK guys and are #1 and #3 in hits for this team. Playing close to 12 to 13 minutes a night. They also match up against the other teams top line on almost every D zone face off. This pairing and line is way more valuable than you give them credit for as PLUGS.

Toss in the fact that they are also not minus players at this point and i'd say they've done a great job.

I don't need to go look at sweet &^&& all.

I like Kuraly (when used as a winger, he stinks in the middle), I like Wagner.

Kuraly is on pace for 10 goals and 13 A (23 pts).

Wagner is on pace for 11 goals and 9 A (20 pts)

Sorry to break it to you, that's 4th line production. Period, end of story, not even debatable.

It's actually pretty good production for 4th line players, but keep in mind Kuraly averages 14 mins. a night, Wagner 13 mins. So if they were getting true 4th line mins. (10-12 per night) those numbers drop a little bit.

You are right about one thing, they have been essentially functioning as a 3rd line under Cassidy.

Good &^&&& luck trying to compete in the NHL with two wingers on your 3rd line on pace for 10 goals and 20-odd points.

 

[rocketdan9]

Bruins praying Frederic turns out to be this seasons Riley Nash. Help rejuvenate Heinen/Backes games

Cehlarik has to keep playing with urgency

Bruins send down two smaller/slimmer players for two 6'2 forwards with some power in their games

Maybe Donny saw enough getting "pushed around"

Also last ditch effort to see if Frederic and Cehlarik are the answer before needing to resort to the trade deadline

 

[rocketdan9]

Unfortunately looks like Cehlarik/Frederic callups are not really working out

After a nice start Cehlarik is pointless (the 2nd line in general is stuck in mud). Frederic is clearly not ready. Can beatup Tanev and has a strong body for his age....but he looks lost (not his fault)

Callup JFK who looked like was progressing nicely ... can skate and was putting up points here and there, chipping in

I don't know if prior to the deadline Donny can give Senyshyn, Carey and maybe even Smith one more chance....before diving into the trade market

 

[The don godfather]

Danton stone cold hands heinen .