Line Combos: 2018-19 Starting Roster II

[Psych0dad]

Maybe, but I think Little could work well with so called checking line.

Either that or give him north-south guys to play with. Wheeler could get more out of Little. Other than that, I would also see him as a defensive 3rd line center because the offense isn't really there but the defense is.

 

[Maukkis]

Either that or give him north-south guys to play with. Wheeler could get more out of Little. Other than that, I would also see him as a defensive 3rd line center because the offense isn't really there but the defense is.

He's third among all Jets in 5v5 point production.

If the offense is not there, then it isn't there with quite a lot of other Jets either. He's behind Scheifele and Wheeler and them only, mind you.

 

[Psych0dad]

He's third among all Jets in 5v5 point production.

If the offense is not there, then it isn't there with quite a lot of other Jets either. He's behind Scheifele and Wheeler and them only, mind you.

Yeah, with these combinations Little might still remain the 3rd but if the lines were juggled, others would get more out of themselves and Little would be 5th or 6th even if he kept the pace he has now. The point is to get more out of the team.

 

[Maukkis]

Yeah, with these combinations Little might still remain the 3rd but if the lines were juggled, others would get more out of themselves and Little would be 5th or 6th even if he kept the pace he has now. The point is to get more out of the team.

Considering Little has never put up points at this pace, I reckon Maurice is fine having him carry Laine and Connor.

 

[scelaton]

Yeah, with these combinations Little might still remain the 3rd but if the lines were juggled, others would get more out of themselves and Little would be 5th or 6th even if he kept the pace he has now. The point is to get more out of the team.

OK, coach, how would you juggle the lines to get more out of the team?
Keep in mind the Jets are 3rd in the entire league in Points %.

 

[Psych0dad]

OK, coach, how would you juggle the lines to get more out of the team?
Keep in mind the Jets are 3rd in the entire league in Points %.

Connor/Ehlers-Scheifele-Laine
Ehlers/Connor-Little-Wheeler
Perreault-Lowry-Tanev

For the first 3 lines. Something like that. Unite the best pair in Scheifele-Laine, and see where Little-Wheeler pair is today, how they can contribute together since they did fine before.

Sure they are 3rd but they could be 1st and knowing your line combinations is great preparation for the playoffs. Last playoffs we had no backup plan and when the scoring went dry against Vegas, no changes were made because there had been no testing of plan B during the season. Wouldn't want to see us go into playoffs again without knowing what the optimized lineup is. Apparently though, some (including the coach) are just fine with not knowing. Not how I operate. Knowledge is power and advantage.

 

[Psych0dad]

Considering Little has never put up points at this pace, I reckon Maurice is fine having him carry Laine and Connor.

He isn't carrying them. He is more the reason they are dry.

I don't know how many years of straight up evidence you need that Little-Laine combination doesn't work for either one. Away from Little, Laine is the most productive forward in the team. With Little, his production drops to 1/3 of what it is with others. Even Copp got plenty more out of Laine. EVERY time Laine is put in with someone else, he thrives.

It's a weird trick of the mind to convince yourself that under those conditions and facts, Little is somehow carrying them. He isn't, there is no sign of it. Stats comparison with any other combination shows you without a doubt that Little is a massive handbreak on Laine.

 

[Maukkis]

He isn't carrying them. He is more the reason they are dry.

I don't know how many years of straight up evidence you need that Little-Laine combination doesn't work for either one. Away from Little, Laine is the most productive forward in the team. With Little, his production drops to 1/3 of what it is with others. Even Copp got plenty more out of Laine. EVERY time Laine is put in with someone else, he thrives.

It's a weird trick of the mind to convince yourself that under those conditions and facts, Little is somehow carrying them. He isn't, there is no sign of it. Stats comparison with any other combination shows you without a doubt that Little is a massive handbreak on Laine.

I'm going to assume most of your points are backed up by nothing, as has been the case forever. I can already see one; for example, Connor-Wheeler-Laine and Tanev-Lowry-Laine sucked beyond all belief. Moreover, Perreault-Little-Laine works like a charm. Weird how having a play driver and a defensively great center works with a player who sucks at both playdriving and defense?

Your criticism on Little is just lazy. Some takes are bad, but yours truly are a pathetic attempt of pinning a plethora of issues on one guy.

What Laine needs is a metric f***ton of work on his all-around game, a better work ethic and Mathieu Perreault. If you want to win now, give me the latter. For the future, the first two.

 

[Psych0dad]

I'm going to assume most of your points are backed up by nothing, as has been the case forever. I can already see one; for example, Connor-Wheeler-Laine and Tanev-Lowry-Laine sucked beyond all belief. Moreover, Perreault-Little-Laine works like a charm. Weird how having a play driver and a defensively great center works with a player who sucks at both playdriving and defense?

Your criticism on Little is just lazy. Some takes are bad, but yours truly are a pathetic attempt of pinning a plethora of issues on one guy.

What Laine needs is a metric ****ton of work on his all-around game, a better work ethic and Mathieu Perreault. If you want to win now, give me the latter. For the future, the first two.

Yeah, Perreault-Scheifele-Laine is the best tested combo we have so I am all for using it.

I think the issue comes more from your lack of understanding what I write. Little isn't a problem if used correctly with the guys he jives with. He is fine with guys who play his style of play. He is NOT fine for Laine as EVERYTHING indicates over 3 years of data. It's not lazy, it's honest analysis that considers changing factors. You like to ignore factors to drive a narrative. You ignore that Little-Laine brings both down. For what? To "teach Laine a lesson in work" or what? There is no point in trying to make pieces fit in holes they are not to designed to fit in. Use players to their abilities, don't try to change their natural fit to something you would rather prefer due to personal preference. I wish Maurice got that, used his players to their strengths instead of focusing on making them play to their weaknesses. It's idiotic coaching.

You can talk about play drivers until blue in the face, doesn't change the fact that hockey is a goal scoring game. I will take a play ender before a play driver because results matter, not amount of chances or whatever it is that you look for. Laine can outscore any other Jet when paired with a proper center..he can do much more damage in that spot than any other Jet. That is the sole reason why he should be used in that position. It is best for the team to get the most out of their best players. It's really not difficult to grasp that concept.

Unless you REALLY think that Wheeler is a bigger threat in that 1st line than Laine would be. Then I have a bridge to sell you!

You won't see the disconnected "lazy" Laine when his line works. Go figure, people look slow and clueless when they have no idea what their center is doing. Whoda thunk? Oh wait, everyone who has played a team sport and experienced what chemistry is.

 

[Maukkis]

Yeah, Perreault-Scheifele-Laine is the best tested combo we have so I am all for using it.

I think the issue comes more from your lack of understanding what I write. Little isn't a problem if used correctly with the guys he jives with. He is fine with guys who play his style of play. He is NOT fine for Laine as EVERYTHING indicates over 3 years of data. It's not lazy, it's honest analysis that considers changing factors. You like to ignore factors to drive a narrative. You ignore that Little-Laine brings both down. For what? To "teach Laine a lesson in work" or what? There is no point in trying to make pieces fit in holes they are not to designed to fit in. Use players to their abilities, don't try to change their natural fit to something you would rather prefer due to personal preference. I wish Maurice got that, used his players to their strengths instead of focusing on making them play to their weaknesses. It's idiotic coaching.

You can talk about play drivers until blue in the face, doesn't change the fact that hockey is a goal scoring game. I will take a play ender before a play driver because results matter, not amount of chances or whatever it is that you look for. Laine can outscore any other Jet when paired with a proper center..he can do much more damage in that spot than any other Jet. That is the sole reason why he should be used in that position. It is best for the team to get the most out of their best players. It's really not difficult to grasp that concept.

Unless you REALLY think that Wheeler is a bigger threat in that 1st line than Laine would be. Then I have a bridge to sell you!

You won't see the disconnected "lazy" Laine when his line works. Go figure, people look slow and clueless when they have no idea what their center is doing. Whoda thunk? Oh wait, everyone who has played a team sport and experienced what chemistry is.

Kind of feel like a Jets fan would acknowledge that there is an issue when one of your players has no chemistry with all but two players on the roster. Let me know when you clock that.

 

[nippanappa]

It is true that historic statistics suggest Scheifele-Laine and Wheeler-Little duos work. Who knows, maybe they don't work again but it just doesn't make any sense to not even try these combinations (more than 2 periods) in the past 2 years.

 

[Psych0dad]

Kind of feel like a Jets fan would acknowledge that there is an issue when one of your players has no chemistry with all but two players on the roster. Let me know when you clock that.

I don't know which player you are referring to. Can't really tell from the description. Little only has chemistry with 2 people is what you mean? In that case he should probably be played with those 2 then. Logic would suggest that.

 

[Ukkosenjumala]

I don't think it's that much a matter of chemistry. When Laine is playing well and say, Ehlers breaks out of a sh% slump, you get Ehlers Stastny Laine that was very good. Even the supposedly horrible combo of Little Laine have had their hot streaks, one of them just last month. In fact, it's a big reason Little has the 3rd best 5v5 P/60 on the team followed up by Laine at 5th with just one less 5v5 point because they've been tied at the hip and they're involved in practicly every point they get 5v5 with each other.

He's just an inconsistant player playing with guys who also have their slumps and he needs to learn to be more effective on the nights he isn't scoring instead of letting it get to him.

 

[Duke749]

It is true that historic statistics suggest Scheifele-Laine and Wheeler-Little duos work. Who knows, maybe they don't work again but it just doesn't make any sense to not even try these combinations (more than 2 periods) in the past 2 years.

Then you’re not looking very carefully. Laine would drag Scheif down until he’s out of his funk. Then they’d be leathal for about two weeks to go through it again. And that’s not even discussing the defensive issues they would have.

 

[nippanappa]

I don't think it's that much a matter of chemistry. When Laine is playing well and say, Ehlers breaks out of a sh% slump, you get Ehlers Stastny Laine that was very good. Even the supposedly horrible combo of Little Laine have had their hot streaks, one of them just last month. In fact, it's a big reason Little has the 3rd best 5v5 P/60 on the team followed up by Laine at 5th with just one less 5v5 point because they've been tied at the hip and they're involved in practicly every point they get 5v5 with each other.

He's just an inconsistant player playing with guys who also have their slumps and he needs to learn to be more effective on the nights he isn't scoring instead of letting it get to him.

This is true as well, Laine needs to get more consistent and there's some nights where he can't get anything going. He talks a lot in media about being more useful on the ice when pucks aren't going in the net but most of those nights where he struggles he's not doing too much. Definitely would like to see him being more active and helping his line other ways too.

Then you’re not looking very carefully. Laine would drag Scheif down until he’s out of his funk. Then they’d be leathal for about two weeks to go through it again. And that’s not even discussing the defensive issues they would have.

Like I said, it could be the case or it could be not. However, there's no way knowing without trying, but past results say they are very productive together compared to other combinations.

To me, it would make sense to try it out. We are very likely to be in the situation where we need to shake our lineup, at least in playoffs. That's why we should try different combinations. If they don't work, move on and try something else.

 

[Zhamnov5GoalGame]

Yeah, Perreault-Scheifele-Laine is the best tested combo we have so I am all for using it.

I think the issue comes more from your lack of understanding what I write. Little isn't a problem if used correctly with the guys he jives with. He is fine with guys who play his style of play. He is NOT fine for Laine as EVERYTHING indicates over 3 years of data. It's not lazy, it's honest analysis that considers changing factors. You like to ignore factors to drive a narrative. You ignore that Little-Laine brings both down. For what? To "teach Laine a lesson in work" or what? There is no point in trying to make pieces fit in holes they are not to designed to fit in. Use players to their abilities, don't try to change their natural fit to something you would rather prefer due to personal preference. I wish Maurice got that, used his players to their strengths instead of focusing on making them play to their weaknesses. It's idiotic coaching.

You can talk about play drivers until blue in the face, doesn't change the fact that hockey is a goal scoring game. I will take a play ender before a play driver because results matter, not amount of chances or whatever it is that you look for. Laine can outscore any other Jet when paired with a proper center..he can do much more damage in that spot than any other Jet. That is the sole reason why he should be used in that position. It is best for the team to get the most out of their best players. It's really not difficult to grasp that concept.

Unless you REALLY think that Wheeler is a bigger threat in that 1st line than Laine would be. Then I have a bridge to sell you!

You won't see the disconnected "lazy" Laine when his line works. Go figure, people look slow and clueless when they have no idea what their center is doing. Whoda thunk? Oh wait, everyone who has played a team sport and experienced what chemistry is.

Laine needs play drivers on his line because 95% of the time he can't create chances himself.
That's why it's important.
Laine could be even twice the goal scoring machine that he is and it wouldn't matter if he spent every shift buried in our end standing around waving his stick.

Laine is great on the back check but close to useless once the other team sets up in our zone.

The blame Little game is tired and proven wrong.
The problem with the line is usually
A) who the 3rd player is
B) is Laine playing well?

Last March it wouldn't matter who is center was he was actually winning board battles and creating his own chances. My guess is that we'll see another hot streak like that in the near future and whether it's Little or someone else playing center Laine will look great. And at some point that will end and we'll get a stretch of ineffective Laine who looks like he is regressing.
Rinse repeat.

Wheeler is among the best if not THE best at puck protection on our team.
Scheifele and him cycle well together with either Connor or Ehlers so they create a lot of zone time and chances that way. Laine is by far the worst player on our team at puck protection / retrieval so my guess is that Maurice doesn't like the looks of a top line that will mainly be a rush only threat with very little zone time.

As soon as Laine gets consistently better at that then I would really beat the drum to play him and Scheif together. Until then we'd be putting our 2 best shooters on the same line and make it easier for other teams to load up their top line and top d pair to shut that line down.

In games we are down and not looking good I would certainly try some type of 55-29 line.
But I would also revert back to 55-26 the next game.
There's no reason not to try 55-29 when we are shuffling the deck to find offense in a game that we are losing.
There are a lot of reasons not to run with 55-29 as a perma line.

WE ALL HOPE THAT LAINE WILL PROGRESS HIS OVERALL GAME IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS TO CHANGE THAT STORY.

 

[Psych0dad]

There are a lot of reasons not to run with 55-29 as a perma line.

Those reasons do not show up in real statistics though, so those reasons are subjective, eye test. Opinion rather than analysis.

In real actualized statistics those two together permanently is exactly what they should do (unless they have somehow lost the connection in 2 years apart, one way to find out). As it bumps both of their productivity up and makes almost no change in defensive numbers compared to the current configuration.

And yeah I expect Laine to become better at "line driving" when his physical tools allow him to do that. His stickwork is excellent and his size is great, just needs to have the tenacity and strength, stamina to keep doing it all for 22 minutes a game at relatively 100% effort. Can't expect that at a veteran level, when he is so far removed from his physical prime still. Still shouldn't stop him from being used to the maximum he can bring, and even if that at this point means mainly the trigger man, so be it...it's still the best result for the team if he is scoring at the rate he CAN score. The way he is utilized now, we are leaving 15-20 goals on the bench just because "reasons". That can't be but a negative in overall team performance, even if they are one of the top teams. There's more to get out of this group.

And the "blame little" thing...it's not about Little but about chemistry. People who see a different play, do not make a very good line. People who see the same plays are able to execute them and it makes the whole line look a lot faster. It's not surprising in the least that Laine just disappears when he is put in with Little and explodes and looks 100x better when without. He can position instinctively with the others, but with Little he has to guess and often guesses wrong. Their whole fundamental idea of offense is from different pages. Someone like Chef or Stastny or even Copp was able to read Laine and vice versa. That's why it looks great. It doesn't look great when you have to over think it. Like if you attempted to speak a language by learning the language rules and vocabulary and then try to form sentences....it takes a long time to form them because you go by an order. When you conversate in your own language with someone who also knows it, it's fluent, fast and natural. It happens with hockey chemistry as well. Laine and Little do not "speak the same language" when it comes to hockey. One is more classically trained, regimented, and the other one plays jazz. Doesn't mix too well.

 

[Zhamnov5GoalGame]

Those reasons do not show up in real statistics though, so those reasons are subjective, eye test. Opinion rather than analysis.

In real actualized statistics those two together permanently is exactly what they should do (unless they have somehow lost the connection in 2 years apart, one way to find out). As it bumps both of their productivity up and makes almost no change in defensive numbers compared to the current configuration.

And yeah I expect Laine to become better at "line driving" when his physical tools allow him to do that. His stickwork is excellent and his size is great, just needs to have the tenacity and strength, stamina to keep doing it all for 22 minutes a game at relatively 100% effort. Can't expect that at a veteran level, when he is so far removed from his physical prime still. Still shouldn't stop him from being used to the maximum he can bring, and even if that at this point means mainly the trigger man, so be it...it's still the best result for the team if he is scoring at the rate he CAN score. The way he is utilized now, we are leaving 15-20 goals on the bench just because "reasons". That can't be but a negative in overall team performance, even if they are one of the top teams. There's more to get out of this group.

And the "blame little" thing...it's not about Little but about chemistry. People who see a different play, do not make a very good line. People who see the same plays are able to execute them and it makes the whole line look a lot faster. It's not surprising in the least that Laine just disappears when he is put in with Little and explodes and looks 100x better when without. He can position instinctively with the others, but with Little he has to guess and often guesses wrong. Their whole fundamental idea of offense is from different pages. Someone like Chef or Stastny or even Copp was able to read Laine and vice versa. That's why it looks great. It doesn't look great when you have to over think it. Like if you attempted to speak a language by learning the language rules and vocabulary and then try to form sentences....it takes a long time to form them because you go by an order. When you conversate in your own language with someone who also knows it, it's fluent, fast and natural. It happens with hockey chemistry as well. Laine and Little do not "speak the same language" when it comes to hockey. One is more classically trained, regimented, and the other one plays jazz. Doesn't mix too well.

You are doing a lot of the bolded above yourself.

Since mid-October Little has brought a very consistent game to the ice.
He's had games and plays where he looked fantastic with Laine and more recent ones where they haven't. The biggest difference in those games isn't Little... it's Laine.
When Laine looks bad that is on him.

Not being able to read Little?
What?
Ehlers and Laine are the guys in our top 6 who are difficult to read.
Scheif, Wheeler, Connor, Little and MP (when he's there) are pretty straight forward.

The thing that made C-L-L have some dynamic games was mainly Connor.
When the line was formed he was on fire and doing a lot to

• Create offense
• Regain and Maintain possession
• Drive play

This is what created the zone time that led to the wonderful chances they had that resulted in a lot of scoring opportunities and many goals.

For whatever reason Connor has had much less success in recent games in these areas.
This leads to more and more time spent in the d-zone where Laine and Connor don't look very good.

I've noticed several plays where there is quite a bit of separation between the forward group.
Connor ends up entering the attacking zone alone. Little is at mid-ice and Laine is still in our zone way behind the play.
That leads to Connor dumping the puck (which they rarely regain) or he tries to hold onto it but he gets double or triple teamed and the puck is gone.

Laine and Scheifele would have a lot of hot streaks and good games but that would not prevent the cold streaks from happening. When Laine is off he would drag down that line and because we'd have most of our eggs in one basket it would make it VERY difficult to win.

It's very obvious when Laine is really trying and when he isn't.
He way too often isn't trying as hard as he could.
I'm not sure if that is an area he can ever really be strong in.
That drive to be the best that Scheifele has is not yet something you see in Laine with any kind of regularity. I'm not sure we ever will.
I'm not sure you can train "fire in the belly".
It's just in you or it isn't.
Laine will have to get by with his abundant skill.
That is what makes him an NHLer.
He wouldn't even be sniffing pro-hockey if not for the elite skills that he has.
Some guys get there by hard work, they beat the odds and outplay their lack of those skills.
Laine looks to be the other way.

He has physical tools (size, reach) and amazing world class skills (shooting) to go with some really good puck skills (hand eye, passing, puck handling) and a knack for finding spots to get his shot off.
But he'll never be mistaken for the "hardest working Jet".
Again because of the skill he has he can be very successful and potentially the best scorer in the league without working as hard as his peers.

Now before this degrades into a "crap" on Laine-fest it's important to note.
That I am a BIG fan of his.
I enjoy him scoring or playing well more than any other Jet.
The difference between a good game and a bad game often appears to be a couple of inches.
Even in his recent goalless streak... as bad as he's looked he has had some chances.
And often those chances go in for him.
Had they gone in the perception that he is playing better would be there.
More importantly he would feel he is playing better which some times seems to be the biggest factor in whether he actually is or isn't. In most cases it's all in his young head.
His line mates at times really don't matter... he's either super human or not ready for the AHL.
The variance in his play has to be one of the largest gaps of any player in hockey.

I'll just wait for the next hot streak and have faith that the Jets can win games with or without Laine at the top of his game. If they can lead the conference with him playing poorly for a significant number of games then that shows how strong they are. If we get lucky he'll get a hot streak going in the spring. He could win us a series or two by himself if that happens. Unfortunately he could also become a massive non factor. We won't know until then.

But I have faith that he will improve some more over the course of the season. I know the "Feb-March" Laine is in there somewhere and I'll be super pleased when he makes an appearance again.

For the record I would be excited to see 55 & 29 play together but I certainly won't worry about it if they don't. I like them together and I also like spreading our 2 best shooters over two lines. We often only need one of those 2 lines going to win a game.

 

[Mud Turtle]

That drive to be the best that Scheifele has is not yet something you see in Laine with any kind of regularity. I'm not sure we ever will.
I'm not sure you can train "fire in the belly".
He wouldn't even be sniffing pro-hockey if not for the elite skills that he has.
Some guys get there by hard work, they beat the odds and outplay their lack of those skills.
Laine looks to be the other way.
But he'll never be mistaken for the "hardest working Jet".

That first interview laying down on the couch with his headphones really bothered me. Still does.
You would never ever have seen Scheifele do something like that.
Hopefully one day Laine gets somewhere near the same fire in his belly. If he does, he will go down in history as one of the best.
Does that come with maturity? Hopefully somewhat at least.

 

[Gil Fisher]

What I am coming to understand from all this bunk is that people hate Little because Maurice won't play Laine with Scheifele.

From my perspective, offensively, it doesn't matter who Laine plays with; when pucks are flying in for him, they look great (ie 18-81 from mid-Nov to early-Dec), and when pucks aren't going in for him, they look sh*t (18-81 early-Dec to now). Maybe nothing's changed but puck luck.

 

[Jack722]

It's very obvious when Laine is really trying and when he isn't.
He way too often isn't trying as hard as he could.
I'm not sure if that is an area he can ever really be strong in.
That drive to be the best that Scheifele has is not yet something you see in Laine with any kind of regularity. I'm not sure we ever will.
I'm not sure you can train "fire in the belly".
It's just in you or it isn't.

You can cut out the videogames and stop frying your dopamine. Just IMO.

 

[grieves]

Mo has explicitly said that he is developing the team to win close quarter battles. He doesn't want to unleash the full potential just yet. This is not really a contentious issue since it is from the mouth of the head coach. Feel free to show otherwise though.

 

[Halberdier]

I'm going to assume most of your points are backed up by nothing, as has been the case forever. I can already see one; for example, Connor-Wheeler-Laine and Tanev-Lowry-Laine sucked beyond all belief.

Tanev-Lowry-Laine was not expected to work, not a bit. It takes a record breaking coach to put Tanev and Laine into the same line.

Connor-Wheeler-Laine actually did fine. Look at their goals for, goals against. They were really effective offensively, meh defensively as expected, but after all net positive with a decent margin.

Sorry, but your claims do not match match reality, goals for vs. goals against. I'm on mobile (as usual) and in a hurry, so I'm not going to get you statistics from natural stat trick, but in short you are just wrong. It's not that those stats weren't repeated here over and over again.

And please, Perreault - Little - Laine was not a really bad line, but still I think they were either net negative or net neutral whereas Laine lines with Copp, Stastny or Scheifele (or Connor & Wheeler) were hugely net positive. Please don't make things up.

All long running Laine lines sans Little have been hugely net positive.

 

[boydkc]

I truly believe he is waiting for the playoffs to put together the top two lines that can compete for the cup;

Ehlers,Schiefele,Laine
Connor,Little,Wheeler

He has moved all over combinations around but this .

 

[Gil Fisher]

I truly believe he is waiting for the playoffs to put together the top two lines that can compete for the cup;

Ehlers,Schiefele,Laine
Connor,Little,Wheeler

He has moved all over combinations around but this .

You are right there is a reason he hasn't run with 55-26...but this isn't it.