Prospect Info: 2018-19 Prospects Thread II (CHL, NCAA, Junior A, Europe)

[Foppa2118]

...so does Samwise & he's still undersized

There's so many comments that don't match reality with Makar. This undersized narrative has been beaten into the ground since he was drafted.

It was said here that he needed to be great offensively just to stick in the NHL because of his size. That's simply ridiculous. He's 6'0" 192 lbs now, and will add 5-10 more lbs of muscle in the next few years.

He's not a one dimensional defender, and his size wouldn't be the reason for that anyway. Girard is much smaller than Barrie for example, but that didn't stop him from being better defensively since game 1 in the NHL.

Also, as we see regularly, Makar is willing to battle and give cross checks in front of his net, and dish out hits against older more physically mature young men in the NCAA, than some of the counter examples given in the CHL.

He's probably not gonna be a defensive stud, or an overly physical player in the NHL, but I don't expect these elements to be missing from his game either.

 

[cgf]

There's so many comments that don't match reality with Makar. This undersized narrative has been beaten into the ground since he was drafted.

It was said here that he needed to be great offensively just to stick in the NHL because of his size. That's simply ridiculous. He's 6'0" 192 lbs now, and will add 5-10 more lbs of muscle in the next few years.

He's not a one dimensional defender, and his size wouldn't be the reason for that anyway. Girard is much smaller than Barrie for example, but that didn't stop him from being better defensively since game 1 in the NHL.

Also, as we see regularly, Makar is willing to battle and give cross checks in front of his net, and dish out hits against older more physically mature young men in the NCAA, than some of the counter examples given about how they played in the CHL.

He's probably not gonna be a defensive stud, or an overly physical player in the NHL, but I don't expect these elements to be missing from his game either.

I'm not saying I expect it to be a problem.

But national media types will mention that a guy is undersized until he proves that doesn't hold them back at the NHL level. Once Cale proves his size won't be an issue in the NHL then that narrative will start to die off

 

[Foppa2118]

I'm not saying I expect it to be a problem.

But national media types will mention that a guy is undersized until he proves that doesn't hold them back at the NHL level. Once Cale proves his size won't be an issue in the NHL then that narrative will start to die off

I think it's more an example of lazy journalism. They just regurgitate what others have said. That's the case among fanbases as well. I think it's probably a result of the immediacy of information out there. People comment about things now before they really look into them properly.

 

[cgf]

I think it's more an example of lazy journalism. They just regurgitate what others have said. That's the case among fanbases as well. I think it's probably a result of the immediacy of information out there. People comment about things now before they really look into them properly.

Laziness & lacking the time to research everything, are probably the root, but it’s a pretty common reservation national media types have against prospects of a certain size...not some anti-Avs narrative or big-market-bias, like I’ve seen some fans claim

...not saying you particularly, just a notion I’ve seen that I’m piggybacking off of my response to you to address.

 

[avsfan09]

It isn't that the undersized comments are unfounded or BS... Makar is simply going to be undersized in the NHL and will have to overcome it. Look at it this way, Ray Bourque was undersized even though he was as thick as they come. Heiskanen is undersized even though he is average NHL defensemen height. Undersized in different ways, but undersized nonetheless. What has to happen with an undersized player is their positive attributes have to outweigh their negative to a higher degree. In Cale's case, his skating, anticipation, and stick will have to be that much better than a player that is 6'2" to defend as well. When looking at these things, it isn't as simple as saying 5'11" can't play... but more of are the positive attributes a player brings enough to outweigh the fact they are 5'11"? When we were all circling around the Jost #2C drain... my main argument was that Jost's skating wasn't good enough to overcome his size. Not that a 5'11" player can't play center at a high two way level, but that their other skills need to make up for their lack of size. I've pointed to Brayden Point in the past... he is a very undersized center at ~5'10" 160lbs, but his skating are smarts are so good that he overcomes his lack of size plus a lot.

With Makar, you have a player that is fully engaged on every shift and has a very high skating (and skill) level... you start having a basis of a player that can overcome his size detriment. I personally don't see Makar being a 200+ guy, but 195 is probably where he settles without it impacting his skating. No doubt that is undersized in the NHL at the average defensemen height hovers around 6'1" to 6'2" and 205-210 lbs... Makar isn't going to reach that size unless somebody just flat out lies when submitting their height/weight to the NHL database (which is frequently wrong BTW). So give into the size argument, but understand that is just one part of it. Look at if his positives can overcome his negatives. IMO Makar is clearly showing they will at the college level, and that he will be a very solid NHL defensemen. What level is going to be what he has to prove when he gets into the NHL later this season or next season. I'd say the signs are trending very positively for him to be a high impact player. I know people like tossing around comparables... the one I've heard lately is a bigger and better Ryan Ellis. The more I think of it, the more I believe that is spot on.

Isnt Ryan Ellis's skating quite poor?

 

[Foppa2118]

What you're not impressed by.. "tries to think of a bottom pairing D or a bottom six forward we actually developed"

Never mind..

I think Cumiskey and Galiardi from the 05 and 07 drafts might literally be the last ones.

Cumsikey might not even qualify but I can't think of another defenseman. Maybe Kurt Sauer from the 2000 draft but they only had him for two post draft years before he signed with Anaheim.

 

[avsfan09]

At this point, the only concern I have for Makar next season is going to be endurance. How is he going to hold up going from the NCAA schedule to an 82 game (hopefully longer) NHL schedule. Seems like most rookies get hit after the holidays with a wall of some sort.

I'm sure it'll be alot easier when hes not in college playing hungover and tired from laying on top of ladies.

 

[avsfan09]

I think Cumiskey and Galiardi from the 05 and 07 drafts might literally be the last ones.

Cumsikey might not even qualify but I can't think of another defenseman. Maybe Kurt Sauer from the 2000 draft but they only had him for two post draft years before he signed with Anaheim.

Brad Malone is still effective from what I've seen. Honestly wouldnt have given up on him. Hes atleast as good as Bourque.

 

[Barklez]

Brad Malone is still effective from what I've seen. Honestly wouldnt have given up on him. Hes atleast as good as Bourque.

Only one ginger at a time. JTC is all we need.

 

[avsfan09]

Only one ginger at a time. JTC is all we need.

Gingers get a bad rap! ever been with a redhead

 

[henchman21]

Isnt Ryan Ellis's skating quite poor?

It is quite good... he isn't a burner post surgery (still way above average speed wise), but is very strong and agile which is the most important aspect.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I think Cumiskey and Galiardi from the 05 and 07 drafts might literally be the last ones.

Cumsikey might not even qualify but I can't think of another defenseman. Maybe Kurt Sauer from the 2000 draft but they only had him for two post draft years before he signed with Anaheim.

I wanted to mention Graves, but we didn't select him and I'm not sure one year in the system qualifies. Also I cannot even remember where they got Borq from lol. Plus I'm not sure I agree that he should even be on an NHL roster.

Galiardi was at least useful, and I guess you could qualify Jones and Stewy as bottom six guys in the end lol.

I do think they should get credit for Compher though if we're being nice.

 

[McMetal]

I wanted to mention Graves, but we didn't select him and I'm not sure one year in the system qualifies. Also I cannot even remember where they got Borq from lol. Plus I'm not sure I agree that he should even be on an NHL roster.

Galiardi was at least useful, and I guess you could qualify Jones and Stewy as bottom six guys in the end lol.

I do think they should get credit for Compher though if we're being nice.

Gork was a PTO a few years back, same year as Rene Bourque. He came up in the Preds system, although I'm not sure I consider him an NHL player anymore. He used to be speedy and a good PKer but now IDK WTF he's good for anymore.

And Compher is a good point, he had a pretty much ideal development curve since we acquired him. He spent most of a season in the AHL and came out fine as a multi-dimensional bottom nine forward.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Gork was a PTO a few years back, same year as Rene Bourque. He came up in the Preds system, although I'm not sure I consider him an NHL player anymore. He used to be speedy and a good PKer but now IDK WTF he's good for anymore.

And Compher is a good point, he had a pretty much ideal development curve since we acquired him. He spent most of a season in the AHL and came out fine as a multi-dimensional bottom nine forward.

He gets in his teammates way. He also has one of the worst sticks for a so called defensive minded forward I have ever seen. Its always out of position. Its either in his feet or someone else feet almost constantly.

 

[Foppa2118]

Brad Malone is still effective from what I've seen. Honestly wouldnt have given up on him. Hes atleast as good as Bourque.

True, I thought he was solid for a 4th liner as well. Same draft as Galiardi. Wasn't really a regular with the Avs like Gali though.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Brad Malone is still effective from what I've seen. Honestly wouldnt have given up on him. Hes atleast as good as Bourque.

I would welcome Malone back with open arms if it means no more Ghetto or Bork. Malone isn't the guy I wish we hadn't given up on. That guy is Johnny Boychuck for me and Radim Vrbata. Wish we kept both of them.

 

[Pokecheque]

Ehhhhh...Brad Malone never impressed me. I've never seen a hockey player do more to flat-out ignore the puck. If that's the kind of player we're regretting letting go that shows what a sad state of affairs the Avs are in right now.

Galiardi was a very good two-way forward/utility guy whose career was derailed completely by one injury. Bad coaching didn't help matters.

Here are the facts--we don't need to pine for Brad Malone. There are quality defensive forwards all across the world that could be had for cheap. A guy like Dwight King couldn't find work anywhere in the NHL and had to go overseas and could've filled a 3rd/4th line role for the Avs EASILY. Quality 4th liners are not that hard to find...but they do have a short shelf life.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Ehhhhh...Brad Malone never impressed me. I've never seen a hockey player do more to flat-out ignore the puck. If that's the kind of player we're regretting letting go that shows what a sad state of affairs the Avs are in right now.

Galiardi was a very good two-way forward/utility guy whose career was derailed completely by one injury. Bad coaching didn't help matters.

Here are the facts--we don't need to pine for Brad Malone. There are quality defensive forwards all across the world that could be had for cheap. A guy like Dwight King couldn't find work anywhere in the NHL and had to go overseas and could've filled a 3rd/4th line role for the Avs EASILY. Quality 4th liners are not that hard to find...but they do have a short shelf life.

Something something and not having to pay them 1-2M instead of 750k when they're your own product coming in on ELCs?

 

[Pokecheque]

Something something and not having to pay them 1-2M instead of 750k when they're your own product coming in on ELCs?

Well, I never said don't develop players, just saying that the league as a whole overvalues certain players who bring nothing to the table while others who actually play quality defense are left out in the cold. Those players don't command a lot of $$$ either, but I honestly think a guy like King gets nothing and a guy like Bourque still finds spot duty in the NHL because Bourque has that one game out of twenty where he's a whirling dervish on the ice, hitting everything in sight and even chipping on a highlight-reel goal, whereas you barely notice a quality defensive forward like King or McClement because they're just quietly doing their jobs without any sort of flair. This league is still way too much into the eye test and "grit" factor. I also think they overrate a given player's presence in the locker room. Those guys are easy to find.

 

[avsfan09]

Ehhhhh...Brad Malone never impressed me. I've never seen a hockey player do more to flat-out ignore the puck. If that's the kind of player we're regretting letting go that shows what a sad state of affairs the Avs are in right now.

Galiardi was a very good two-way forward/utility guy whose career was derailed completely by one injury. Bad coaching didn't help matters.

Here are the facts--we don't need to pine for Brad Malone. There are quality defensive forwards all across the world that could be had for cheap. A guy like Dwight King couldn't find work anywhere in the NHL and had to go overseas and could've filled a 3rd/4th line role for the Avs EASILY. Quality 4th liners are not that hard to find...but they do have a short shelf life.

I don't think we're pining for Brad Malone but wondering why we dont keep our prospects a little longer.

 

[Pokecheque]

I don't think we're pining for Brad Malone but wondering why we dont keep our prospects a little longer.

Well, with the exception of Johnny Boychuk I don't think many of them were all that good, were they?

But Henchy touched upon it before--the organization seems to pass judgment pretty quickly, if you don't show some major signs of development during your ELC, you're out! But of course the problem with that is that the organization doesn't invest nearly enough in the development of those prospects.

 

[avsfan09]

Well, with the exception of Johnny Boychuk I don't think many of them were all that good, were they?

But Henchy touched upon it before--the organization seems to pass judgment pretty quickly, if you don't show some major signs of development during your ELC, you're out! But of course the problem with that is that the organization doesn't invest nearly enough in the development of those prospects.

Agreed. The wings give prospects time to Marinate and because of that they get players turned around. I know its a cliche but thats the type of develpment we should emulate imo.

 

[Alex Jones]

Agreed. The wings give prospects time to Marinate and because of that they get players turned around. I know its a cliche but thats the type of develpment we should emulate imo.

Has the wings development been good recently?

 

[avsfan09]

Has the wings development been good recently?

I think considering draft position it has but I'd have to look deeper.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Well, I never said don't develop players, just saying that the league as a whole overvalues certain players who bring nothing to the table while others who actually play quality defense are left out in the cold. Those players don't command a lot of $$$ either, but I honestly think a guy like King gets nothing and a guy like Bourque still finds spot duty in the NHL because Bourque has that one game out of twenty where he's a whirling dervish on the ice, hitting everything in sight and even chipping on a highlight-reel goal, whereas you barely notice a quality defensive forward like King or McClement because they're just quietly doing their jobs without any sort of flair. This league is still way too much into the eye test and "grit" factor. I also think they overrate a given player's presence in the locker room. Those guys are easy to find.

Yeah I agree with you for the most part, but there is some recognition that needs to be given to their failure in that aspect. Especially since ELCs contributing will only become more prevalent. I think we all want Kam to be more than a #4C, same with Bowers, but their contributions moving forward will probably be very important. So it is frustrating to think about a lacking of development with the AHL team.

Not saying you were ignoring that, but more that the discussion prompts things unsaid to be brought up.