Speculation: 2017-18 Roster Discussion - Part 5

[Todd1a]

People are starting to see the big picture now. I’m pretty sure when we began this season that most of us were expecting something of a rebuilding year. We knew we had talent but Vasy was expected to struggle more adjusting to a starter’s workload, Sergachev wasn’t a given to stay up with the big club much less start as hot as he did, and I don’t think anyone predicted that Point or Gourde would be as good as they have been. Don’t get me wrong, we still had enough high end talent to be a playoff team, but I very much doubt anybody here expected us to be leading the league by a huge margin for most of the season the way we did.

As good as we’ve been this season the fact is we’re ahead of schedule. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t make the most of it and pursue opportunities to make the team better for the upcoming playoff run, but it does mean that we don’t need to panic and make moves that don’t make sense in the big picture. We came close a few times over the last several years but I think you can make a good case that none of those teams was truly built to win a Cup - if you don’t believe me just look at our scoring depth now compared with then. Not only is our window not about to slam shut, I would argue that it’s just now starting to open. So let’s make the necessary moves to resolve our weaknesses now AND for the next several years, because Werewolf isn’t kidding when he says we could have a potential dynasty on our hands if we play our cards right.

I expected us to be a playoff team this year but I did not think we would be in the running for the presidents trophy. I expected point to be this good but gourde has really shocked me how good he has been this year for sure. I’m not saying yzerman shouldn’t make a trade but giving up foote, howden and a 1st rounder for Ryan McDonagh? A guy we probably won’t be able to resign? That’s 3 first round draft picks for McDonagh when you look at it that way ? Should we look at mike green if we can get him for a 1st rounder sure . Should we get maroon if we could get him for say a 3rd rounder and Erne or a low end prospect sure. But I would not pay a premium price unless I’m getting Erik Karlsson and some type of agreement with his agent that he would sign long term here. look at the Blackhawks now you can see there core is older and dealing picks and prospects in the past is hurting them now for even just being a playoff team.

 

[Sky04]

To be fair, impulsively pouncing on a big name at the deadline is a pretty Capitals/Rangers thing to do.

It's also a Chicago and Pittsburgh thing to do, how many cups to they have again? Did rutherford not just state he's all in for a 3rd cup? Guy has back to back cups and still willing to mortage the future because he understands the goal is to win and they have nowhere near the pool we have.

It's almost like the top contenders are trying to get better.

 

[Bolt 45]

It's also a Chicago and Pittsburgh thing to do, how many cups to they have again? Did rutherford not just state he's all in for a 3rd cup? Guy has back to back cups and still willing to mortage the future because he understands the goal is to win and they have nowhere near the pool we have.

It's almost like the top contenders are trying to get better.

Okay. But you don't have to question the heart of guys like Crosby and Toews. You spend what it takes because you know it'll make a difference. It's a calculated risk versus an outright gamble.

Nothing about the effort level I'm seeing from a lot of our guys leaves me feeling good about trading away components of our future for a Cup run now. The team would have to look like they really want it. Right now they don't.

 

[Sky04]

Okay. But you don't have to question the heart of guys like Crosby and Toews. You spend what it takes because you know it'll make a difference. It's a calculated risk versus an outright gamble.

Nothing about the effort level I'm seeing from a lot of our guys leaves me feeling good about trading away components of our future for a Cup run now. The team would have to look like they really want it. Right now they don't.

Seeing as how we're a cup favorite with multiple deep runs, a loaded roster and a GM like Yzerman I think we fall into "calculated risk" there Chief. It's a calculated risk for any contending team - it's an outright gamble if you're a bubble team trying to make the playoffs through deadline acquisitions.

 

[The Gongshow]

People are starting to see the big picture now. I’m pretty sure when we began this season that most of us were expecting something of a rebuilding year. We knew we had talent but Vasy was expected to struggle more adjusting to a starter’s workload, Sergachev wasn’t a given to stay up with the big club much less start as hot as he did, and I don’t think anyone predicted that Point or Gourde would be as good as they have been. Don’t get me wrong, we still had enough high end talent to be a playoff team, but I very much doubt anybody here expected us to be leading the league by a huge margin for most of the season the way we did.

As good as we’ve been this season the fact is we’re ahead of schedule. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t make the most of it and pursue opportunities to make the team better for the upcoming playoff run, but it does mean that we don’t need to panic and make moves that don’t make sense in the big picture. We came close a few times over the last several years but I think you can make a good case that none of those teams was truly built to win a Cup - if you don’t believe me just look at our scoring depth now compared with then. Not only is our window not about to slam shut, I would argue that it’s just now starting to open. So let’s make the necessary moves to resolve our weaknesses now AND for the next several years, because Werewolf isn’t kidding when he says we could have a potential dynasty on our hands if we play our cards right.

But why do we (we meaning the organization) have to wait for Stamkos and Heddy to be in their 30's and more of the kids to come up before we become this "dynasty" We have a solid depth pool. Why not trade a few pieces away to help the team, which is capable of winning a cup now?! It wouldn't cripple us to lose a few prospects.

Sure we make a trade and it doesn't pay off but why not go "all in" (so to speak) for a run or two with this core while we have it and can afford it.

I get about keeping the future in mind but don't waste the present.

 

[Bolt 45]

Seeing as how we're a cup favorite with multiple deep runs, a loaded roster and a GM like Yzerman I think we fall into "calculated risk" there Chief. It's a calculated risk for any contending team - it's an outright gamble if you're a bubble team trying to make the playoffs through deadline acquisitions.

You could be describing the Sharks or Caps in recent years, too. President's trophies, star power, highlights, accolades... all meaningless. To be pefectly frank, when I look at Stammer right now, I have no choice but to put him level with a Thornton or an Ovechkin —captains who kind of go dark when it matters most— rather than a Crosby or a Toews. Maybe this is the year when that changes. Maybe. Not absolutely. Not certainly. Maybe.

You're right about Yzerman. He'll make the right call. He's got a better feel for his roster than either of us.

 

[Sky04]

You could be describing the Sharks or Caps in recent years, too. President's trophies, star power, highlights, accolades... all meaningless. To be pefectly frank, when I look at Stammer right now, I have no choice but to put him level with a Thornton or an Ovechkin —captains who kind of go dark when it matters most— rather than a Crosby or a Toews. Maybe this is the year when that changes. Maybe. Not absolutely. Not certainly. Maybe.

You're right about Yzerman. He'll make the right call. He's got a better feel for his roster than either of us.

So because they tried to win it's meaningless? In that case lets pack up and wait till we draft a Crosby.

Stamkos is not the ideal player to build a team around - but we have a good supporting cast with him and he's here for 6 more years for better or worse.

 

[Sky04]

But why do we (we meaning the organization) have to wait for Stamkos and Heddy to be in their 30's and more of the kids to come up before we become this "dynasty" We have a solid depth pool. Why not trade a few pieces away to help the team, which is capable of winning a cup now?! It wouldn't cripple us to lose a few prospects.

Sure we make a trade and it doesn't pay off but why not go "all in" (so to speak) for a run or two with this core while we have it and can afford it.

I get about keeping the future in mind but don't waste the present.

Nah, gotta make sure every single prospect hits full potential while on their ELC's then we can be a 1-2 year dynasty before these prospects start leaving for $$ because we sure aren't affording them all.

Not hard to see that we can be even more dangerous this year and next while still be contenders 4-5 years from now at the cost of a couple picks and players.

 

[Bolt 45]

So because they tried to win it's meaningless? In that case lets pack up and wait till we draft a Crosby.

Stamkos is not the ideal player to build a team around - but we have a good supporting cast with him and he's here for 6 more years for better or worse.

No, I'm saying that we could end up like those teams if we're not careful. Our prospect pool is our hedge against that fate. We should dip into it sparingly.

Stammer's fine. He's not Crosby, but my point wasn't to trash him. All we need him to do is score, which he does. Between he and Point we get everything we need in the top-6 at center, and we have a lot of clutch guys who come up big in big moments... they've just looked lazy this year, which concerns me heading into the playoffs.

All I'm saying is that McD won't solve all of our problems, so we should weigh all of our options carefully, not that we shouldn't make a move at all.

 

[Todd1a]

But why do we (we meaning the organization) have to wait for Stamkos and Heddy to be in their 30's and more of the kids to come up before we become this "dynasty" We have a solid depth pool. Why not trade a few pieces away to help the team, which is capable of winning a cup now?! It wouldn't cripple us to lose a few prospects.

Sure we make a trade and it doesn't pay off but why not go "all in" (so to speak) for a run or two with this core while we have it and can afford it.

I get about keeping the future in mind but don't waste the present.

I would not go All in this year the way the team has played in it's last 16 games I don't think getting 1 player is going to make us a stanley cup champion right now boston would smoke us in the playoffs. Toronto i'm not sure we can beat them in a playoff match up right now also. Now if Erik Karlsson is truly on the market and we can find a way to sign him after his deal expires I'd jump on that asap.

 

[HoseEmDown]

When has Pittsburg or Chicago went all in? The Kessel trade was a 1st + prospect + 3rd + filler for Kessel + 2nd + filler with retention on Kessel. Kessel was a long term fix for them too not a rental. The deal is almost like the Coburn one too, 1st + 3rd + good piece(Gudas) for Coburn. Chicago has moved some late 1sts and average prospects for players, they've never had a top pool to trade from. Nobody here would be upset if we traded some picks, decent prospects or average NHLers like Dotchin, Koekkoek or Paquette types it's trading multiple top prospects, picks and more is not the way to go.

 

[AndreRoy]

But why do we (we meaning the organization) have to wait for Stamkos and Heddy to be in their 30's and more of the kids to come up before we become this "dynasty" We have a solid depth pool. Why not trade a few pieces away to help the team, which is capable of winning a cup now?! It wouldn't cripple us to lose a few prospects.

Sure we make a trade and it doesn't pay off but why not go "all in" (so to speak) for a run or two with this core while we have it and can afford it.

I get about keeping the future in mind but don't waste the present.

Like I said, we should make moves, but make them with the big picture in mind. Don’t gut our organization depth for short term luxuries when we should be addressing our biggest weaknesses both now AND longterm.

 

[These Are The Days]

Who the f*** cares about picks and prospects? Let's sit down and evaluate what it's TRULY going to cost this team to improve. We're talking Sergachev, a 1st rounder one year, a 2nd rounder another year, a top prospect like Katchouk or Raddysh and a player we aren't going to miss like Koekkoek or Dotchin. Now let's digest it.

We're just gonna sit back and watch another team get the best players because we don't want to part with a struggling 19 year old, a disposable roster player, a prospect who won't be ready for 2 years and picks 31 and 62 provided we win it all?'

Sergachev+1st+Katchouk/Raddysh = McDonough

Koekkoek/Dotchin+2nd round pick = Hjalmarsson

And if we really, REALLY want to get greedy

3rd round pick = Maroon

We're seriously going to NOT make the best move possible "cuz 4 years from now" as opposed to thinking 4 months from now?

If this team doesn't win it all then it falls squarely on the shoulders of Steve Yzerman not icing a team good enough to do it because God knows Coop has been making chicken salad out of Dotchin playing 1st pairing for almost 11 months now and only just a few weeks ago did the chicken finally expire and start to smell bad. Any and every coach in the NHL can stand to be better but he has not been the problem this year.

The reason teams like the Rangers failed to sustain a contender after going all in is because they suck at drafting. Since 2008 (10 years ago) they've managed to draft Miller, Fast, Skeji and Kreider. 4 guys worth a shit in 10 drafts when the Lightning have been finding that many almost yearly since Yzerman took over

Let me reiterate. WE. ARE. FINE. We are the gold standard of drafting and developing in the NHL and nothing about that is going to change. The only thing stopping us from being the team that wins it all and drafts great players is having the courage to win it all.

Every GM in the league is staying up at night trying to hatch a plan on how to be better than us and they can and WILL do it if we are not willing to do it ourselves.

 

[Todd1a]

Who the **** cares about picks and prospects? Let's sit down and evaluate what it's TRULY going to cost this team to improve. We're talking Sergachev, a 1st rounder one year, a 2nd rounder another year, a top prospect like Katchouk or Raddysh and a player we aren't going to miss like Koekkoek or Dotchin. Now let's digest it.

We're just gonna sit back and watch another team get the best players because we don't want to part with a struggling 19 year old, a disposable roster player, a prospect who won't be ready for 2 years and picks 31 and 62 provided we win it all?'

Sergachev+1st+Katchouk/Raddysh = McDonough

Koekkoek/Dotchin+2nd round pick = Hjalmarsson

And if we really, REALLY want to get greedy

3rd round pick = Maroon

We're seriously going to NOT make the best move possible "cuz 4 years from now" as opposed to thinking 4 months from now?

If this team doesn't win it all then it falls squarely on the shoulders of Steve Yzerman not icing a team good enough to do it because God knows Coop has been making chicken salad out of Dotchin playing 1st pairing for almost 11 months now and only just a few weeks ago did the chicken finally expire and start to smell bad. Any and every coach in the NHL can stand to be better but he has not been the problem this year.

The reason teams like the Rangers failed to sustain a contender after going all in is because they suck at drafting. Since 2008 (10 years ago) they've managed to draft Miller, Fast, Skeji and Kreider. 4 guys worth a **** in 10 drafts when the Lightning have been finding that many almost yearly since Yzerman took over

Let me reiterate. WE. ARE. FINE. We are the gold standard of drafting and developing in the NHL and nothing about that is going to change. The only thing stopping us from being the team that wins it all and drafts great players is having the courage to win it all.

Every GM in the league is staying up at night trying to hatch a plan on how to be better than us and they can and WILL do it if we are not willing to do it ourselves.

Sergachev+1st+Katchouk/Raddysh = McDonough that price is insane yzerman would never do that man. If we were all in then why did yzerman trade Drouin for a 19 year old defenseman in sergachev ? why would'nt he trade for a 25 year old defenseman ?

 

[These Are The Days]

Because there isn't a team saying "here take my 25 year old defenseman". Most 25 year olds are not as good as McDonagh. Hell, most players are not as good as him.

The whole "We need to be contenders for the future" logic does not apply to us Todd. We could lose Segachev and a top prospect and we STILL won't have room on the big team. Someone is gonna be Richard Panik all over again.

We'll recoup our losses in 2 years while winning the big shiny thing at the end and people will ask "How do they do it?"

 

[FinnLightning26]

Who the **** cares about picks and prospects?

Steve Yzerman, pretty clearly.

 

[These Are The Days]

Steve Yzerman, pretty clearly.

Let me re-phrase.

Who cares if we lose a few?

 

[HoseEmDown]

We won the Cup in 04 and were picking 1st overall 4 years later. I'd rather not have that happen again.

 

[Todd1a]

We won the Cup in 04 and were picking 1st overall 4 years later. I'd rather not have that happen again.

Yes I agree man

 

[Todd1a]

now a deal that would make sense would be oscar klefbom for Sergachev. Why it works for Tampa he is 24 years old and signed during his prime years already. Why it works for the oilers Sergachev will be in his prime the same time as mcdavid and there other core guys.

 

[AndreRoy]

now a deal that would make sense would be oscar klefbom for Sergachev. Why it works for Tampa he is 24 years old and signed during his prime years already. Why it works for the oilers Sergachev will be in his prime the same time as mcdavid and there other core guys.

Definitely makes a lot more sense than trading him for a year and change of McDonagh or gimpy Karlsson. IMO it’d be worth considering if Klefbom played the right side, but if we fix our other defensive issues we can afford to shelter Sergachev behind Hedman while he goes through his growing pains and with his greater potential along with the offense he already provides I’d prefer to hang onto Serg.

 

[These Are The Days]

We won the Cup in 04 and were picking 1st overall 4 years later. I'd rather not have that happen again.

And that happened because Lecavalier and Richards were the only noteworthy draft picks we had in that 10 year span. Our draft history pre-Yzerman is probably some of the worst in NHL history. We had nothing to fall back on.

Hose, normally I would agree with everyone here about not giving up too much but I would not be going off like this if I did not think we really, really are going to be okay. Any good shopper does not over pay but at the same time, we're asking for the most expensive thing there is.... a championship. The Cup isn't just paid for in blood, sweat and tears. Sometimes you have to be proactive.

Above all other things my fellow Lightning fans, we have fanbases in cities who have never won a Cup. How much do you think they wish they were in our position? They'd tell you glory is worth anything and that Tortorella was right. That safe is death.

These are the good years man! The kind of stuff you see happen for other teams and you say, "Why not us?"

Well it's happening!

The Cup can be had. So.... why not us?


Late edit: I hate to be "that guy" but one of these days Jeff Vinik is going to pass away and Yzerman isn't going to be our GM anymore. No one knows when that is going to be but I can assure each and every person here that it WILL eventually happen. There is nothing in the cards that says that we won't become the most inept franchise in the NHL by then. As for me, I don't want to look back on these years wishing we had not fallen short.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I would not go All in this year the way the team has played in it's last 16 games I don't think getting 1 player is going to make us a stanley cup champion right now boston would smoke us in the playoffs. Toronto i'm not sure we can beat them in a playoff match up right now also. Now if Erik Karlsson is truly on the market and we can find a way to sign him after his deal expires I'd jump on that asap.

I don’t think you make a decision based on our last 16 games. I remember back in 2015 we had an awful February. We still won some games here and there but we looked bad doing it and the games we lost were worse. I know it’s different this year than that but we never looked as dominant that year compared to this year. I would argue our current stretch hasn’t been that bad either but compared to the beginning yes it’s a difference.

My point is it’s still too early to say how we will be once playoffs roll around. To me it looks like our guys have taken the foot off the gas a bit. This is a long season and that’s understandable. I bet Boston will take their foot off the gas a bit too. Even if they don’t, they are bound to hit a slump. Toronto is a dangerous team but they still strike me as a team that’s really young. They could be like us in 2015 but I consider us better than anything we had to face in 2015.

With that said the truth is we are close and whoever makes the right moves at this deadline could end up the winner in the end. It’s that competitive. I just want to see SY make the right move. If that is make a big move, do it. Because we are close. When you are this close you go for it. You may never be that close again. Too much can happen.

 

[RussianGuyovich]

We won the Cup in 04 and were picking 1st overall 4 years later. I'd rather not have that happen again.

id take the cup, even if it was guaranteed we'd be FOA pickers less than half a decade later. but you're right, nothing is guaranteed, even if we do shoot for the moon.

 

[CupsOverCash]

We won the Cup in 04 and were picking 1st overall 4 years later. I'd rather not have that happen again.

I just don’t see the same problems. Our drafting then was awful. Once Khabibulin and Richards left we were no longer a dangerous team. We didn’t have core guys locked up like we do now. Now we are loaded at center, depth scoring, and despite our recent D play I think we are deeper than most teams there too. So really the question isn’t whether if we make a move now and mortgage the future, it’s do we want to take a little from our uncertain future for now. The playoffs is an uncertain future too but you never know when you will be in this kind of position again.