Speculation: 2017-18 Roster Discussion - Part 5

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Todd1a

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Jun 19, 2014
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And that happened because Lecavalier and Richards were the only noteworthy draft picks we had in that 10 year span. Our draft history pre-Yzerman is probably some of the worst in NHL history. We had nothing to fall back on.

Hose, normally I would agree with everyone here about not giving up too much but I would not be going off like this if I did not think we really, really are going to be okay. Any good shopper does not over pay but at the same time, we're asking for the most expensive thing there is.... a championship. The Cup isn't just paid for in blood, sweat and tears. Sometimes you have to be proactive.

Above all other things my fellow Lightning fans, we have fanbases in cities who have never won a Cup. How much do you think they wish they were in our position? They'd tell you glory is worth anything and that Tortorella was right. That safe is death.

These are the good years man! The kind of stuff you see happen for other teams and you say, "Why not us?"

Well it's happening!

The Cup can be had. So.... why not us?


Late edit: I hate to be "that guy" but one of these days Jeff Vinik is going to pass away and Yzerman isn't going to be our GM anymore. No one knows when that is going to be but I can assure each and every person here that it WILL eventually happen. There is nothing in the cards that says that we won't become the most inept franchise in the NHL by then. As for me, I don't want to look back on these years wishing we had not fallen short.
Vinik is like 58 years old it's not like he is 80 years old stick with yzerman's plan he has us on track for sure guys upgrades are coming is why guys like JT brown's and such are gone now.
 

These Are The Days

Oh no! We suck again!!
May 17, 2014
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Vinik is like 58 years old it's not like he is 80 years old stick with yzerman's plan he has us on track for sure guys upgrades are coming is why guys like JT brown's and such are gone now.

That's not how I meant it but you are correct that we should stay the course.

I'm a patient person, I never got upset when we didn't make the playoffs last year and I didn't get upset when we didn't win the Cup in any of our playoff appearances before that. But this is yet another time in the Jon Cooper and Steve Yzerman era that I can boldly declare that my team is ready to win it all. In this particular time we're a move away from having our best chance ever in a season that I thought was going to be a learning year. But it didn't happen that way. We've dominated. We're clearly one of the best teams in the NHL but even the best teams still need some help.

It's been 10 years since Brad Richards was traded and 10 years since I first hatched dreams of Steven Stamkos in a Lightning uniform because the best I could hope for was that we'd win the lottery pick to get him. It's time for him to finally hold the Cup over his head.
 

HoseEmDown

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Mar 25, 2012
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Why does it have to be Karlsson or McDonagh for us to win the Cup? Why do we have to move a good young roster player who's only going to be getting better in Sergachev plus several top prospects and picks? Why can't we get a Green or Johnson for much less and still win? We are near the top of the league with this group, we should be good enough to make the ECF at least, add a good piece or two and we could win it all. We don't have to go for it all to have a chance to win.
 

HoseEmDown

Registered User
Mar 25, 2012
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Would you give up the cup for 5-7 straight years of playoff runs?

Kinda like the Rays......

How is it a given we will win the Cup? We also could win the Cup in any of those 7 years. Once you get in you have as good a chance as anybody at winning. Pittsburg hasn't always been the 1 seed when they've won it all.
 
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Flat Ronnie

Registered User
Feb 11, 2014
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How is it a given we will win the Cup? We also could win the Cup in any of those 7 years. Once you get in you have as good a chance as anybody at winning. Pittsburg hasn't always been the 1 seed when they've won it all.
You COMPLETELY missed the point...
 

Flat Ronnie

Registered User
Feb 11, 2014
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Why does it have to be Karlsson or McDonagh for us to win the Cup? Why do we have to move a good young roster player who's only going to be getting better in Sergachev plus several top prospects and picks? Why can't we get a Green or Johnson for much less and still win? We are near the top of the league with this group, we should be good enough to make the ECF at least, add a good piece or two and we could win it all. We don't have to go for it all to have a chance to win.
If you think a Green or Johnson will fix a lot of our problems on the back end then so be it. There's a lot of people that would disagree with you.

We are in a fortunate position right now and the path to winning it all is WIDE OPEN. Let's not pretend that this team couldnt use a serious upgrade on the backend to give us the best chance. I don't see many people talking Karlsson - most of this conversation is about McD.

The counter arguments have been hyperbolic at best: "going to GUT our farm", "going to mortgage the future", "there is NO CHANCE we extend him."

^ This is all nonsensical. Nobody has ever suggested destroying our farm, nor has that EVER really been an option. And not one person on here knows that we can't extend McD.

Some of us are simply arguing that we view our situation as a perfect opportunity to go for it in a wide open playing field. And we are willing to lose some valuable assets for the best chance.
 

Todd1a

Kucherov or prospect
Jun 19, 2014
16,389
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orlando, fl
That's not how I meant it but you are correct that we should stay the course.

I'm a patient person, I never got upset when we didn't make the playoffs last year and I didn't get upset when we didn't win the Cup in any of our playoff appearances before that. But this is yet another time in the Jon Cooper and Steve Yzerman era that I can boldly declare that my team is ready to win it all. In this particular time we're a move away from having our best chance ever in a season that I thought was going to be a learning year. But it didn't happen that way. We've dominated. We're clearly one of the best teams in the NHL but even the best teams still need some help.

It's been 10 years since Brad Richards was traded and 10 years since I first hatched dreams of Steven Stamkos in a Lightning uniform because the best I could hope for was that we'd win the lottery pick to get him. It's time for him to finally hold the Cup over his head.
I would not go all in this team is not ready to win the cup like the 2004 team was. Vasy is too up and down still is only 23 years old he will get better and more steady. Stamkos and Hedman will get a cup soon but it's not likely to happen this season. If the cost is correct I'd look at Maroon and Mike green it could give us a chance at the ECF and you never know what can happen on a deep run. The price for Ryan McDonagh is insane and if I was yzerman I would not pay that price let the Rags hang on to him and watch his value drop in the offseason. Feaster stuck at the right time Sydor was the final guy we needed for the cup and I knew it then. there is not one guy who we can get now that will give us a legit chance at the cup know we got tooo many problem area's lots of guys still need to grow more.
 

Bolt 45

Registered User
Oct 19, 2015
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Who the **** cares about picks and prospects? Let's sit down and evaluate what it's TRULY going to cost this team to improve. We're talking Sergachev, a 1st rounder one year, a 2nd rounder another year, a top prospect like Katchouk or Raddysh and a player we aren't going to miss like Koekkoek or Dotchin. Now let's digest it.

We're just gonna sit back and watch another team get the best players because we don't want to part with a struggling 19 year old, a disposable roster player, a prospect who won't be ready for 2 years and picks 31 and 62 provided we win it all?'

Sergachev+1st+Katchouk/Raddysh = McDonough

Koekkoek/Dotchin+2nd round pick = Hjalmarsson

And if we really, REALLY want to get greedy

3rd round pick = Maroon

We're seriously going to NOT make the best move possible "cuz 4 years from now" as opposed to thinking 4 months from now?

If this team doesn't win it all then it falls squarely on the shoulders of Steve Yzerman not icing a team good enough to do it because God knows Coop has been making chicken salad out of Dotchin playing 1st pairing for almost 11 months now and only just a few weeks ago did the chicken finally expire and start to smell bad. Any and every coach in the NHL can stand to be better but he has not been the problem this year.

The reason teams like the Rangers failed to sustain a contender after going all in is because they suck at drafting. Since 2008 (10 years ago) they've managed to draft Miller, Fast, Skeji and Kreider. 4 guys worth a **** in 10 drafts when the Lightning have been finding that many almost yearly since Yzerman took over

Let me reiterate. WE. ARE. FINE. We are the gold standard of drafting and developing in the NHL and nothing about that is going to change. The only thing stopping us from being the team that wins it all and drafts great players is having the courage to win it all.

Every GM in the league is staying up at night trying to hatch a plan on how to be better than us and they can and WILL do it if we are not willing to do it ourselves.
I disagree about Yzerman deserving that kind of blame. In the last few years he's never failed to ice a roster capable of winning the Cup. Never. At a certain point it falls on the coach and the players to get it done, and at a certain point it just kind of comes down to luck. We lost to the eventual champs in consecutive years, and in both cases injuries were a factor; they were a factor in the outlier year in which we missed the playoffs, as well.
 

Todd1a

Kucherov or prospect
Jun 19, 2014
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We don't work hard enough for goals we rely on skill and passing to score goals thats why we are not ready to win a stanley cup this season.
 
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Flat Ronnie

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Feb 11, 2014
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I would not go all in this team is not ready to win the cup like the 2004 team was. Vasy is too up and down still is only 23 years old he will get better and more steady. Stamkos and Hedman will get a cup soon but it's not likely to happen this season. If the cost is correct I'd look at Maroon and Mike green it could give us a chance at the ECF and you never know what can happen on a deep run. The price for Ryan McDonagh is insane and if I was yzerman I would not pay that price let the Rags hang on to him and watch his value drop in the offseason. Feaster stuck at the right time Sydor was the final guy we needed for the cup and I knew it then. there is not one guy who we can get now that will give us a legit chance at the cup know we got tooo many problem area's lots of guys still need to grow more.
Todd, I love you but this is completely off. There is no dominant team in the league now. Yes Boston and Pitt are good but we can beat them on any given day. Adding a legit top pairing defenseman like McD would DEFINITELY help us. You can't deny that. Nothing is a guarantee, but he is an exponential upgrade for our defense. It won't fix all our problems but it would help out A LOT.

His price may be too high, and if that's the case Steve will walk. Most of this conversation on here has been around wanting or not wanting to move guys like Serg and Foote. There is no guarantee that we will win this year with McD just as there's no guarantee we win down the road like you are claiming. You can't predict the future, what we can predict is how amazing the current position we are in to get it this year.
 

Flat Ronnie

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Feb 11, 2014
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I disagree about Yzerman deserving that kind of blame. In the last few years he's never failed to ice a roster capable of winning the Cup. Never. At a certain point it falls on the coach and the players to get it done, and at a certain point it just kind of comes down to luck. We lost to the eventual champs in consecutive years, and in both cases injuries were a factor; they were a factor in the outlier year in which we missed the playoffs, as well.
Exactly, and this year we find ourselves in mid Feb with full home ice advatage, no dominant Chi or Pitt teams of the past and a roster that is COMPLETELY healthy once Palat returns.

This is the PERFECT time to go all in.
 

HoseEmDown

Registered User
Mar 25, 2012
17,452
3,681
If you think a Green or Johnson will fix a lot of our problems on the back end then so be it. There's a lot of people that would disagree with you.

We are in a fortunate position right now and the path to winning it all is WIDE OPEN. Let's not pretend that this team couldnt use a serious upgrade on the backend to give us the best chance. I don't see many people talking Karlsson - most of this conversation is about McD.

The counter arguments have been hyperbolic at best: "going to GUT our farm", "going to mortgage the future", "there is NO CHANCE we extend him."

^ This is all nonsensical. Nobody has ever suggested destroying our farm, nor has that EVER really been an option. And not one person on here knows that we can't extend McD.

Some of us are simply arguing that we view are situation as a perfect oppotunity to go for it in a wide open playing field. And we are willing to lose some valuable assets for the best chance.

I don't know if McDonagh is the cure we need either. Green should help our 2nd PP which is useless right now, or even the top one. He also is good in transition and skating the puck up ice which we are lacking outside of Hedman and Sergachev. Johnson depends on what role we use him at, he can help the PK right now and he has shown in the playoffs he can put up points too.

Getting McDonagh is gonna cost us some stuff we don't want to lose, not saying the farm but pieces we could use in a couple of years. Everyone says we need to move on from Killorn soon, we'll we move Katchouk there goes that player and we have to plug a lesser prospect in there. We are still in need of a 2nd line RW, Radddysh should be that player. We have crap on the right side besides an aging Stralman, Foote is one of those answers. We need a better bottom 6 too. We are far from a perfect team, a small fix to see where this group can go and if we don't win mostly all come back next year and we know what needs to be added to try again. We can do that without McDonagh in my opinion.
 

Todd1a

Kucherov or prospect
Jun 19, 2014
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orlando, fl
I don't know if McDonagh is the cure we need either. Green should help our 2nd PP which is useless right now, or even the top one. He also is good in transition and skating the puck up ice which we are lacking outside of Hedman and Sergachev. Johnson depends on what role we use him at, he can help the PK right now and he has shown in the playoffs he can put up points too.

Getting McDonagh is gonna cost us some stuff we don't want to lose, not saying the farm but pieces we could use in a couple of years. Everyone says we need to move on from Killorn soon, we'll we move Katchouk there goes that player and we have to plug a lesser prospect in there. We are still in need of a 2nd line RW, Radddysh should be that player. We have crap on the right side besides an aging Stralman, Foote is one of those answers. We need a better bottom 6 too. We are far from a perfect team, a small fix to see where this group can go and if we don't win mostly all come back next year and we know what needs to be added to try again. We can do that without McDonagh in my opinion.
Ya I agree RHD is where we need the help right away but other then karlsson there is no soultion out there right now other then renting green. McDonagh is good but he is a LHD ya he plays the right side some but we need a true RHD guy. Mike Green is not a great defenseman he has skill can help our pp but he is not a shut down type of defenseman we truly need.
 

Todd1a

Kucherov or prospect
Jun 19, 2014
16,389
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orlando, fl
Todd, I love you but this is completely off. There is no dominant team in the league now. Yes Boston and Pitt are good but we can beat them on any given day. Adding a legit top pairing defenseman like McD would DEFINITELY help us. You can't deny that. Nothing is a guarantee, but he is an exponential upgrade for our defense. It won't fix all our problems but it would help out A LOT.

His price may be too high, and if that's the case Steve will walk. Most of this conversation on here has been around wanting or not wanting to move guys like Serg and Foote. There is no guarantee that we will win this year with McD just as there's no guarantee we win down the road like you are claiming. You can't predict the future, what we can predict is how amazing the current position we are in to get it this year.
is all good man we all want to improve right away but again it all depends on what cost
 

CupsOverCash

Registered User
Jun 16, 2009
16,353
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We don't work hard enough for goals we rely on skill and passing to score goals thats why we are not ready to win a stanley cup this season.

I think this has been more of representation of our recent play than our play earlier this year. I don’t know if you have any of our games from October to December but we outworked the opposition and had the skill/great passing to go with it. That’s why we were so good. Also Vasi. If you are going to tell me that our biggest problem is our effort, then I wouldn’t be worried. It’s February in a 82 game season and long playoffs too.

I don’t know if you ever played hockey but it’s an exhausting sport. Plus these guys have long travel hours and bunch of other crap they deal with. It’s hard to put that effort in consistently. I think after the deadline we see our legs come back and we work harder. It’s all about getting hot going into the playoffs. Hell I remember when we lost to the Pens in the ECF we weren’t even that hot going into the playoffs. It’s just a different beast and I think we have a really clutch team.

We have the speed, skill, goaltending to beat anybody. My biggest worry going in is our health. I’m worried about these smaller guys getting roughed up in a long grueling playoffs. This is why I think we are rumored to go for a guy like Maroon. Having bigger guys like him and Killorn will help us. I think SY will make a deal. It’s just how big is the question.
 

Bolt 45

Registered User
Oct 19, 2015
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Exactly, and this year we find ourselves in mid Feb with full home ice advatage, no dominant Chi or Pitt teams of the past and a roster that is COMPLETELY healthy once Palat returns.

This is the PERFECT time to go all in.
You're talking like it's a sure thing, which is ridiculous. McD could go down with an injury in Game 2 of the first series. Then what? Sergachev's gone at that point, mind you. He's in New York. What do we do then?

There's a middle ground between going all-in and doing nothing, and that's where we should be looking. If it doesn't work, then we dump contract and use our picks/prospects to make a serious play for a difference-maker in the off season when we have more leverage.
 

These Are The Days

Oh no! We suck again!!
May 17, 2014
34,123
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Tampa Bay
I would not go all in this team is not ready to win the cup like the 2004 team was. Vasy is too up and down still is only 23 years old he will get better and more steady. Stamkos and Hedman will get a cup soon but it's not likely to happen this season. If the cost is correct I'd look at Maroon and Mike green it could give us a chance at the ECF and you never know what can happen on a deep run. The price for Ryan McDonagh is insane and if I was yzerman I would not pay that price let the Rags hang on to him and watch his value drop in the offseason. Feaster stuck at the right time Sydor was the final guy we needed for the cup and I knew it then. there is not one guy who we can get now that will give us a legit chance at the cup know we got tooo many problem area's lots of guys still need to grow more.

I just don't. We've been in the playoffs 4 out of 5 years and have been sitting at the top of the NHL for 2 months and you're telling me we're not only not ready to win it all but it's not time to go all in? These guys we want to hold on to like Segachev, our AHLer's juniors and future draft picks aren't gonna help us for another 2 years.

Todd we don't have 2 years to wait man.
 

Todd1a

Kucherov or prospect
Jun 19, 2014
16,389
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orlando, fl
I just don't. We've been in the playoffs 4 out of 5 years and have been sitting at the top of the NHL for 2 months and you're telling me we're not only not ready to win it all but it's not time to go all in? These guys we want to hold on to like Segachev, our AHLer's juniors and future draft picks aren't gonna help us for another 2 years.

Todd we don't have 2 years to wait man.

We have two years to wait we are fine our core is not that old man don't hit the panic button just yet
 

These Are The Days

Oh no! We suck again!!
May 17, 2014
34,123
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Tampa Bay
I disagree about Yzerman deserving that kind of blame. In the last few years he's never failed to ice a roster capable of winning the Cup. Never. At a certain point it falls on the coach and the players to get it done, and at a certain point it just kind of comes down to luck. We lost to the eventual champs in consecutive years, and in both cases injuries were a factor; they were a factor in the outlier year in which we missed the playoffs, as well.

I'm only talking about this particular season. I'm not gonna hold Cooper responsible if Boston beats the living hell out of us in 5 games because they went and decided to make their great team even better by adding someone like McDonagh for Carlo, a draft pick and prospect and here we are saying "Yeah but at least we got Erik Gudbranson!" or even worse we get told "We just couldn't find a trade that fit our vision" on Feb 26th as if the same price was just too much
 

JAY7791

Registered User
Jun 22, 2013
340
115
I don't get why some people insist on hoarding prospects that we won't even have room for or might not even pan out. Ideally, Howden, Stephens, Cirelli are going to be bottom 6er's. Raddysh and Katchouk might have top 6 upside but even then, our offense is pretty young and full. The fact that we won't move some we won't even notice missing to really enhance winning not 1 cup, but 2 with this roster before big contracts need to be signed, I simply don't agree with. Id rather try now than regret later when some of the prospects we saved don't pan out and we all regret not moving them to help win a cup that is on our finger tips.
 
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Todd1a

Kucherov or prospect
Jun 19, 2014
16,389
2,747
orlando, fl
So we need to wait to start winning championships until Stamkos and Hedman are 30?
Probably if that’s how long it take who knows we could win the cup this year or next year depends we could get lucky. Yzerman was 30 years old for his first cup and he ended up getting three it worked out for him
 

Todd1a

Kucherov or prospect
Jun 19, 2014
16,389
2,747
orlando, fl
I don't get why some people insist on hoarding prospects that we won't even have room for or might not even pan out. Ideally, Howden, Stephens, Cirelli are going to be bottom 6er's. Raddysh and Katchouk might have top 6 upside but even then, our offense is pretty young and full. The fact that we won't move some we won't even notice missing to really enhance winning not 1 cup, but 2 with this roster before big contracts need to be signed, I simply don't agree with. Id rather try now than regret later when some of the prospects we saved don't pan out and we all regret not moving them to help win a cup that is on our finger tips.
Ya and howden, Stephens and cirelli will be major upgrades to our bottom six guys we have now
 
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