2015 Draft Thread "McEichel" Part 3

[Ethan Edwards]

I came here to post that. The last 4 months Eichel fan boys keep saying "its closer than you think." And "4 out of 10 of scouts said he's number 1 according to McKenzie." First of all, back in September, it was 3 out of 10 scouts. And since then, all 3 scouts have changed their minds to McDavid. For those who haven't realized it already, and keep insisting that 1-2 are "neck in neck" They're not, and the gap continues to grow between the 2.

McDavid has always been, and continues to be, #1 for me. So I agree with the scouts. Love the kid and I will be saying a few prayers in April he lands in blue and gold. But this is just ridiculous. Gap continues to grow? That's laughable and using the term "fanboys" tells me quite a bit.

With my background, I admit I'm biased, but what Eichel is doing, elevating his team as a Freshman in the NCAA, on a team that wasn't very good last year and in quasi rebuild mode, is nothing short of astounding. He's currently regarded in my circles as the best player in the NCAA, where the level of competition (not skill) is closer to the NHL than the OHL is. You can debate/disagree with that, and that's fine, but to say that anyone is pulling away is nonsense. #1 McDavid, #2 Eichel? Agreed. #1 McDavid, Far Distant or "By Far" #2 Eichel? Maybe in a few years, we'll see, but not from a current draft perspective.

 

[Ethan Edwards]

They were talking over on the Oilers board about Eichel and they said that he is expected to remain in college for the next 1-2 years. Is this true? Did I miss something?

To my knowledge there has been no public proclamation one way or the other (as you would expect), but I know a lot of people at and associated with BU and there's a pretty universal understanding that he's one and done. I have no inside scoopage, that's just what I've heard. And it's also what you'd expect. He's NHL-ready.

 

[UnleashRasmus]

McDavid has always been, and continues to be, #1 for me. So I agree with the scouts. Love the kid and I will be saying a few prayers in April he lands in blue and gold. But this is just ridiculous. Gap continues to grow? That's laughable and using the term "fanboys" tells me quite a bit.

With my background, I admit I'm biased, but what Eichel is doing, elevating his team as a Freshman in the NCAA, on a team that wasn't very good last year and in quasi rebuild mode, is nothing short of astounding. He's currently regarded in my circles as the best player in the NCAA, where the level of competition (not skill) is closer to the NHL than the OHL is. You can debate/disagree with that, and that's fine, but to say that anyone is pulling away is nonsense. #1 McDavid, #2 Eichel? Agreed. #1 McDavid, Far Distant or "By Far" #2 Eichel? Maybe in a few years, we'll see, but not from a current draft perspective.

From the game that I watched of Eichel, he plays well in all facets whether down the center or on the wing. He skates well, reads the puck and can play on the wall or off. The only thing that I would say about McDavid is he has the appeal for media that could revitalize a franchise. Eichel may very well be the same type of player. My opinions are partially flawed of course.

 

[FearTheBeard]

Fanboys? Plural? Who else are you lumping in with Stokes?

That said, I still think Eichel and Hall would be preferable to one McDavid.

There are a few. Kenny *** Powers among others. I can't remember names.

I also agree with the second statement. No argument there.

Gap continues to grow? That's laughable and using the term "fanboys" tells me quite a bit.

With my background, I admit I'm biased, but what Eichel is doing, elevating his team as a Freshman in the NCAA, on a team that wasn't very good last year and in quasi rebuild mode, is nothing short of astounding. He's currently regarded in my circles as the best player in the NCAA, where the level of competition (not skill) is closer to the NHL than the OHL is. You can debate/disagree with that, and that's fine, but to say that anyone is pulling away is nonsense. #1 McDavid, #2 Eichel? Agreed. #1 McDavid, Far Distant or "By Far" #2 Eichel? Maybe in a few years, we'll see, but not from a current draft perspective.

You think Fan Boys tells you something? Have you been around here long? Seen Stokes post ever? Go check the WJC thread and check out some of those posts RE: Eichel v McDavid.
Also why are you putting "by far" in quotes? I never said that. My post is about there being a clear cut number 1 and 2 now. No 1A 1B, and not that they are light years apart. Don't misquote me. I too think they are both tremendous players. And theres a huge drop off from 2-3, as opposed from 1-2.
And third, gap continues to grow is laughable? So 7 out 10 scouts thought McDavid goes 1 in September. There's an actual debate there, some push on each side. After 4 months of play, the 3 scouts who chose Eichel then changed their mind, and gave McDavid the #1 spot giving him a unanimous 10 out of 10. This wouldn't be considered widening the gap? And thats actually laughable? Ok.

 

[Ethan Edwards]

Im surprised that one scout who switched from Eichel to McDavid actually used the WJC as the reason.

I agree with you, though it's not unique to this year and is a pet peeve of mine. This year, for instance, you can have McDavid at #1 without having to dip into the WJC well. And you shouldn't dip into that well for draft purposes, at least not too deeply. It's a short tourney wholly out of seasonal context. It should have some value, sure, but not THAT much.

The justifications I read in the McKenzie report are that McDavid is playing brilliantly despite all the expectations. I agree he's brilliant, but I don't see how that "elevates" him any further than he's been elevated already. I don't want to come across as an Eichel "fanboy", because I'm not, but I find much of the reasoning for this "now 10/10 prefer McDavid" to be pretty specious. I think both players started the year #1 and #2, they've both been as advertised, two teams are going to be very, very happy this June, and nothing overly radical has occurred to change things from September. Very little has changed in my mind, with McJesus still #1 for me, though I get some are fully aboard the Hype Train to McDavidville and want to see it leave everyone in the dust. I get it. The kid is electric. But the value of McKenzie's list comes after #2 (or really #3), IMO.

 

[Ethan Edwards]

You think Fan Boys tells you something? Have you been around here long? Seen Stokes post ever? Go check the WJC thread and check out some of those posts RE: Eichel v McDavid.

Use of the term fanboys tells me quite a bit, yes. I believe you, and get what you're saying, about the Eichel v. McDavid debate going on elsewhere, but I only visit this forum.

Also why are you putting "by far" in quotes? I never said that.

The post above mine used that phrase.

My post is about there being a clear cut number 1 and 2 now. No 1A 1B, and not that they are light years apart. Don't misquote me. I too think they are both tremendous players. And theres a huge drop off from 2-3, as opposed from 1-2.

Huge drop off from 2 to 3? I would agree with that considering who 1 and 2 are. Huge from 1 to 2? I wouldn't aree with that. 1A v. 1B? I'm not necessarily saying that's the case myself, but I see no widening gap between the two. Whatever gap you feel was there to start the season is up to you, and that's a separate discussion, but I've seen nothing from either player to indicate there's any sort of widening. If anything, to me, Eichel's accomplishments are more unexpected (in a good way), but I'm fine with those who feel differently. Either way, they are who we thought they were.

And third, gap continues to grow is laughable? So 7 out 10 scouts thought McDavid goes 1 in September. There's an actual debate there, some push on each side. After 4 months of play, the 3 scouts who chose Eichel then changed their mind, and gave McDavid the #1 spot giving him a unanimous 10 out of 10. This wouldn't be considered widening the gap? And thats actually laughable? Ok.

I gave my response to this in my previous post. Including why the idea is laughable. Particularly using the WJCs as justification. That's something I considered laughable long ago, not just this year, and for a variety of reasons. In those reports you referenced, from scouts, there is an almost nonchalance to what Eichel is doing at BU. It really makes me wonder who these scouts are and what they know, or don't know, about a Freshman in the NCAA. They even acknowledged Hanifin's struggles as a Freshman. It's a HUGE adjustment coming into college as a Freshman, with everything that entails on and off the ice. Kids struggle, even elite talents. Eichel went on a tear from day one. It's hard to explain how impressive that is to a lot of folks.

 

[FearTheBeard]

Use of the term fanboys tells me quite a bit, yes. I believe you, and get what you're saying, about the Eichel v. McDavid debate going on elsewhere, but I only visit this forum.

I wasn't referring to guys like you who put in reasonable analysis. Im talking about the people saying they'd much rather have Eichel, and McDavid is only 1st because he's Canadian and because of "hype"

Huge drop off from 2 to 3? I would agree with that considering who 1 and 2 are. Huge from 1 to 2? I wouldn't aree with that

.

Thats exactly what Im saying

1A v. 1B? I'm not necessarily saying that's the case myself, but I see no widening gap between the two. Whatever gap you feel was there to start the season is up to you, and that's a separate discussion, but I've seen nothing from either player to indicate there's any sort of widening. If anything, to me, Eichel's accomplishments are more unexpected (in a good way), but I'm fine with those who feel differently. Either way, they are who we thought they were.

I agree with that. In fact, I believe both have exceeded their ridiculously high expectations. In terms of the scouts and hockey minds though, it seems as though the gap as widened from 1 and 2. Its went from a debate to unanimous. Of course, small sample size.

I gave my response to this in my previous post. Including why the idea is laughable. Particularly using the WJCs as justification. That's something I considered laughable long ago, not just this year, and for a variety of reasons. In those reports you referenced, from scouts, there is an almost nonchalance to what Eichel is doing at BU. It really makes me wonder who these scouts are and what they know, or don't know, about a Freshman in the NCAA. They even acknowledged Hanifin's struggles as a Freshman. It's a HUGE adjustment coming into college as a Freshman, with everything that entails on and off the ice. Kids struggle, even elite talents. Eichel went on a tear from day one. It's hard to explain how impressive that is to a lot of folks.

McKenzie interviewed each scout, and only bits and pieces made the article. Perhaps some of the stuff quoted and used doesn't do justice to Eichel's performance, however, the reasoning and logic behind it may have been more sound if we had access to the full interview. Tough to say

 

[B U F F A L O]

Last season 80 points was 6th in scoring and there is no way McEichel puts up that many points in Buffalo next season.

Stamkos 46 Tavares 54 Toews 54 Kane 72 Hall 42 Duchene 55
Giroux first full season at 22 - 47pts 2 years later 93
Getzlaf first full season at 21 - 58 pts 2 years later 91

54 points as an 18-19 year old in Buffalo would be a fine rookie season
but I hope McEichel saves a couple of goals for when it actually matters.

Crosby went to the worst team in the league who finished the prior season with 190 goals. He scored 102 points (6th in the league) and raised his teams totals even though they still finished 29th.

McDavid will easily hit point per game next season.

 

[Ethan Edwards]

I wasn't referring to guys like you who put in reasonable analysis. Im talking about the people saying they'd much rather have Eichel, and McDavid is only 1st because he's Canadian and because of "hype".

Understood, but that's not exactly what I meant. I meant that use of the term "fanboy" gave me a hint that you had an emotional debate going on with another poster or posters and that much of your post was directed at them, not necessarily at me or others. I was simply saying I understood, though I should've fleshed it out better.

The rest of your reply makes everything perfectly clear. I think we disagree slightly with the gap between 1 and 2, but otherwise are in the same ballpark.

McKenzie interviewed each scout, and only bits and pieces made the article. Perhaps some of the stuff quoted and used doesn't do justice to Eichel's performance, however, the reasoning and logic behind it may have been more sound if we had access to the full interview. Tough to say.

Could be, sure, but I still respectfully disagree with much of the analysis he laid out (from scouts). If there's more to it, I would be all ears.

 

[sabrebuild]

I think you're overrating McEichel's ability to walk into the situation and score over 50 points.

Would you not agree that McDavid is a superior prospect to MacKinnon? I don't think its even close.

So ya McDavid might not break 80 but he absolutely should put up more than the 63 that Mack did. I mean to people putting up other rookies numbers in the 40s, he is just better than those guys and much more nhl ready. Tavares didn't have the skating, Stamkos didn't have the physique and the resy had dimilar flaws. Theres a reason the kid is getting Crosby hype. He is a scoring machine. Look up his nhle number. his numbers must translate to stupid production.

 

[FearTheBeard]

Understood, but that's not exactly what I meant. I meant that use of the term "fanboy" gave me a hint that you had an emotional debate going on with another poster or posters and that much of your post was directed at them, not necessarily at me or others. I was simply saying I understood, though I should've fleshed it out better.

The rest of your reply makes everything perfectly clear. I think we disagree slightly with the gap between 1 and 2, but otherwise are in the same ballpark

Could be, sure, but I still respectfully disagree with much of the analysis he laid out (from scouts). If there's more to it, I would be all ears.

Thats exactly right. And to be honest, living in Ontario I've seen a ton of McDavid live. In London I've seen a ton of talent play in this city on or against the knights: Kane, Nash, Tavares, Hall, Stamkos, Yakupov, Galchenyuk etc. And McDavid has hands down stood out most to me, more than any of them. You don't even need to watch for him, you just watch the play and automatically know who he is and when he's on the ice. Its incredible.
My point is, I've been so wowed by this kid, and only ever seen Eichel on TV, i admit I have a small bias. And when I get reinforced by media (McKenzie's list) my mindset grows even further in that direction. Like you said, its not you who my fanboy comments are directed at. Its those who think McDavid is overhyped. He really isn't.
They play the same position, but are still very different players. I think it'll be interesting if the debate with these 2 goes on for years, or if one will pull away down the road. Buckle Up

 

[FearTheBeard]

Would you not agree that McDavid is a superior prospect to MacKinnon? I don't think its even close.

So ya McDavid might not break 80 but he absolutely should put up more than the 63 that Mack did. I mean to people putting up other rookies numbers in the 40s, he is just better than those guys and much more nhl ready. Tavares didn't have the skating, Stamkos didn't have the physique and the resy had dimilar flaws. Theres a reason the kid is getting Crosby hype. He is a scoring machine. Look up his nhle number. his numbers must translate to stupid production.

Completely different situation. It Depends where McDavid goes, and who he's playing with. Colorado finished 2nd in a very tough Western conference. He had Duchene, Landeskog, and other phenomenal talents around him. McDavid won't have that same luxury if he goes to Buffalo

 

[dotcommunism]

Crosby went to the worst team in the league who finished the prior season with 190 goals. He scored 102 points (6th in the league) and raised his teams totals even though they still finished 29th.

McDavid will easily hit point per game next season.

Crosby also did that in a completely different offensive environment than what we have today. That season 7 players broke 100 points, 14 broke 90. Also 7 players broke 50 PP points, with 24 hitting 40 (47 of Crosby's 102 points came on the power play). Last season, one player broke 100 points, who was also the only player to hit 90 points (that being Crosby). Only 7 players hit 80 points last year. Only one player hit 40 PP points, with only 8 getting 30.

Also, while Crosby's team the prior season scored 190 goals, the Penguins were also a year removed from that season (due to the lockout) so a direct comparison with next year's Sabres team to this year's is flawed. That's before we even get to the fact that this team is on pace to score 144 goals (and aren't guaranteed to even reach that).

Leaguewide productivity is way lower in the present NHL than it was the season after the lockout. McDavid may very well be a point per game player right off the bat, but taking it as a given because of Crosby's rookie season requires ignoring the overall downturn in scoring throughout the league as well as the singularly awful offense of the team that McDavid would be stepping into (if the Sabres were to draft McDavid, of course, which seems to be the assumption we're operating under here).

 

[Selanne00008]

Hypothetical:

If McDavid is a notch over Eichel (some say it much more but lets pretend), how much does interviews and personality come into play when drafting (or even the strength and coniditoning?

If Jack looks like he has a much more sound personality, wants to be the best he can possibly be, work ethic is above everyone. How much does that sway the pick?

 

[Montag DP]

Considering our rather high odds of getting the #2 overall pick, I decided it was time for an avatar change. However, I would be more than happy to have to cross out the "Eich" in mid-April and put McDavid instead.

 

[FearTheBeard]

Hypothetical:

If McDavid is a notch over Eichel (some say it much more but lets pretend), how much does interviews and personality come into play when drafting (or even the strength and coniditoning?

If Jack looks like he has a much more sound personality, wants to be the best he can possibly be, work ethic is above everyone. How much does that sway the pick?

I think that kind of stuff only really sways a pick if it is a substantial difference in attitude, and/or 2 players are dead even according to the org.
I mean if McDavid has the upper hand but has a cocky interview and Eichel's interview goes outstanding then yes, maybe. However, from what we've seen from McDavid that certainly isn't the case.

I think this kind of stuff comes in to play more for players deeper in the draft where there is a lot more questions surrounding players. You'll see interviews making a difference between who to pick at #20, but unlikely at #1

 

[1972]

Hypothetical:

If McDavid is a notch over Eichel (some say it much more but lets pretend), how much does interviews and personality come into play when drafting (or even the strength and coniditoning?

If Jack looks like he has a much more sound personality, wants to be the best he can possibly be, work ethic is above everyone. How much does that sway the pick?

It doesn't, because Connor has the demenior of a Toews or Crosby. I don't think you can find a more mature level headed 17 year old. McDavid is going to be a captain in the NHL very quickly.

 

[Jame]

Crosby went to the worst team in the league who finished the prior season with 190 goals. He scored 102 points (6th in the league) and raised his teams totals even though they still finished 29th.

McDavid will easily hit point per game next season.

it's not the 2005-06 NHL anymore... 26 guys score 80+ points that year.

 

[Sabre the Win]

Last season 80 points was 6th in scoring and there is no way McEichel puts up that many points in Buffalo next season.

Stamkos 46 Tavares 54 Toews 54 Kane 72 Hall 42 Duchene 55
Giroux first full season at 22 - 47pts 2 years later 93
Getzlaf first full season at 21 - 58 pts 2 years later 91

54 points as an 18-19 year old in Buffalo would be a fine rookie season
but I hope McEichel saves a couple of goals for when it actually matters.

Your comparing apples to oranges.. Not one of those players were considered generational. They were superstar status with Eichel and I was going to post something in regards to this below. Except Duchene, Giroux, Getzlaf and Toews. They were never considered superstar.

EDIT: Not considered superstar aka "must have" prior to their respected drafts

Crosby went to the worst team in the league who finished the prior season with 190 goals. He scored 102 points (6th in the league) and raised his teams totals even though they still finished 29th.

McDavid will easily hit point per game next season.

Bingo. Although maybe not so many points but we should see something along these lines.

 

[Zip15]

To think I was starting to hate the debates over the word "elite" in years past. I now loathe "generational" and the definition of "superstar"--apparently all superstars are about the same level.

 

[Paxon]

Hypothetical:

If McDavid is a notch over Eichel (some say it much more but lets pretend), how much does interviews and personality come into play when drafting (or even the strength and coniditoning?

If Jack looks like he has a much more sound personality, wants to be the best he can possibly be, work ethic is above everyone. How much does that sway the pick?

None of that stuff matters with this pick, but if it did McDavid scores 100/100 on work ethic and personality anyhow.

it's not the 2005-06 NHL anymore... 26 guys score 80+ points that year.

Yeah but he said PPG not 100 points. I'm sure 82 points today is less than 100 points in that year. I certainly don't think he's a shoe-in to score at a PPG but I think it is possible at the top end. I don't agree with people who think he'll automatically put up more than MacKinnon just because he's a better prospect.

 

[sabrebuild]

Completely different situation. It Depends where McDavid goes, and who he's playing with. Colorado finished 2nd in a very tough Western conference. He had Duchene, Landeskog, and other phenomenal talents around him. McDavid won't have that same luxury if he goes to Buffalo

Agreed, as I noted before it depends on what team he is on to some degree, but your example of Mack goes both ways. Say McDavid is on Buffalo. Unlike Mack, he gets to play against the East, which in general is a less competitive tight checking conference compared to the West. That benefits his potential point totals more than Mack. And while Colorado did have Duchene, Landeskog and ROR to play with, no one else is a "phenomenal" talent, that also resulted in Mack getting less than first line minutes and not a priority on the pp. Mack averaged about 17 minutes a game last year. McDavid will get a lot more ice time than that on the Sabres next year if we were so lucky to get him.

Mack put up roughly .76 pts a game last year. Considering that Mack's best junior season never broke 2 pts a game, which was on a stacked Halifax team, and McDavid is comfortably putting up 2.5 +, I find it hard to understand why posters would accept anything less than a significant bump over Mackinnon.

As a side note Mack put up 10 points in 7 games in the playoffs. Is it so unbelievable that a more talented player in McDavid shouldn't be right around there during the regular season.

 

[sabrebuild]

None of that stuff matters with this pick, but if it did McDavid scores 100/100 on work ethic and personality anyhow.



Yeah but he said PPG not 100 points. I'm sure 82 points today is less than 100 points in that year. I certainly don't think he's a shoe-in to score at a PPG but I think it is possible at the top end. I don't agree with people who think he'll automatically put up more than MacKinnon just because he's a better prospect.

I don't think its automatic because of some arbitrary rankings. I think it is extremely likely because McDavid is a much better offensive player than Mack. Outside of pure power shooting I think McDavid is better offensively at everything than Mack. One of the big ways Mack scored last year was thru his fantastic skating, well McDavid has that level of skating, plus better hands, vision, passing, etc. I think 75-80 pts is a pretty reasonable number for him to score. He certainly could dip 10 pts in either direction without it being surprising.

The only reason this kept going was I found it interesting that Zeropt had McDavid at 50-55 range, which I just can't imagine him producing at such a low rate short of a major injury.

 

[flashsabre]

I have watched McDavid since he was 14 and he is the total package. Amazing talent who is driven and has a terrific demeanor and humbleness to him. I would jump for joy if the Sabres got him.

That being said, this is the perfect season to tank. Eichel is a phenomenal player. Number 1 franchise changing centre who by all accounts is a real quality kid as well. Finish 30th and you are golden.

I'm a huge McDavid supporter but I don't see a huge difference between the two talent wise. Both players have edges, McDavid is more tenacious away from the puck, Eichel is bigger and has an elite shot. Both have tremendous hockey sense and are superior skaters. This nonsense about "marketing" is ridiculous. The best marketing in the world is winning in pro sports and with Eichel-Reinhart as your 1-2 punch going forward this team will be set up to win for years.

Sadly, I think some of this "widening gap" between the two players talk on here is a small amount of Sabres fans trying to set up a "wow is us" scenario where they can complain about Buffalo never getting any breaks and having to "settle" for the inferior player in Eichel.

 

[Paxon]

Agreed, as I noted before it depends on what team he is on to some degree, but your example of Mack goes both ways. Say McDavid is on Buffalo. Unlike Mack, he gets to play against the East, which in general is a less competitive tight checking conference compared to the West. That benefits his potential point totals more than Mack. And while Colorado did have Duchene, Landeskog and ROR to play with, no one else is a "phenomenal" talent, that also resulted in Mack getting less than first line minutes and not a priority on the pp. Mack averaged about 17 minutes a game last year. McDavid will get a lot more ice time than that on the Sabres next year if we were so lucky to get him.

Mack put up roughly .76 pts a game last year. Considering that Mack's best junior season never broke 2 pts a game, which was on a stacked Halifax team, and McDavid is comfortably putting up 2.5 +, I find it hard to understand why posters would accept anything less than a significant bump over Mackinnon.

As a side note Mack put up 10 points in 7 games in the playoffs. Is it so unbelievable that a more talented player in McDavid shouldn't be right around there during the regular season.

MacKinnon's top two most common forward linemates last season by 5 on 5 ice time: Landeskog and ROR. The third and fourth? Stastny and Duchene. He moved up the line-up as the season went on. It's not a given that McDavid gets more ice time if he's with us. Do you think they're going to give an 18 year old forward 20 minutes a game? Are you really going to hold up 10 points in 7 playoff games as if that was sustainable? So now you expect McDavid to score 1.43 PPG which is 117.26 points over 82 games? Jeez.

Forget "accepting". I'd "accept" 50 points from him. Why would we position ourselves to make demands of an 18 year old rookie?