2015 Draft Thread "McEichel" Part 3

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Paxon

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I don't think its automatic because of some arbitrary rankings. I think it is extremely likely because McDavid is a much better offensive player than Mack. Outside of pure power shooting I think McDavid is better offensively at everything than Mack. One of the big ways Mack scored last year was thru his fantastic skating, well McDavid has that level of skating, plus better hands, vision, passing, etc. I think 75-80 pts is a pretty reasonable number for him to score. He certainly could dip 10 pts in either direction without it being surprising.

The only reason this kept going was I found it interesting that Zeropt had McDavid at 50-55 range, which I just can't imagine him producing at such a low rate short of a major injury.

I think 80 points is a fantastic number for him to score. That'd be the best rookie season in a long time. The last player to score more than low 60's in his rookie season was Kane with 72 in 2008. Malkin had 85 the year before. The year before that, Crosby had 102 and Ovechkin 106. Those were different times. McDavid scoring 20 points over the norm for the top rookie scorer would the most anyone could ask of him. Yeah, one would hope he'd score above the norm (say, 70 points) because he's better than all those prospects since the ones I mentioned, but situation is important as well. His linemates are either going to be guys like Moulson and Ennis vs. top competition or guys I shudder to mention vs. easier competition.
 

sabrebuild

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MacKinnon's top two most common forward linemates last season by 5 on 5 ice time: Landeskog and ROR. The third and fourth? Stastny and Duchene. He moved up the line-up as the season went on. It's not a given that McDavid gets more ice time if he's with us. Do you think they're going to give an 18 year old forward 20 minutes a game? Are you really going to hold up 10 points in 7 playoff games as if that was sustainable? So now you expect McDavid to score 1.43 PPG which is 117.26 points over 82 games? Jeez.

Forget "accepting". I'd "accept" 50 points from him. Why would we position ourselves to make demands of an 18 year old rookie?

Haha come on I didn't imply that. My prediction for the last two pages has been 75-80 pts. I only used that to show what a guy like Mack was capable of both in the regular season, and the harder scoring environment of the playoffs. I do not think he will be putting up 90, let alone 117.26, tho watching him get the .26 would be entertaining.

As to 20 minutes a night, ya I think he gets close to that if we had him. For example Crosby played a little over 20 minutes a game as a rookie. I don't mean to make this a McDavid will do exactly what Crosby did narrative, but look at Buffalo and tell me who is going to keep him from those minutes? Nobody. He will immediately step on the ice and be by far the most dangerous offensive option we have. And they can protect him by putting him on the wing, but he is still going to get top two line minutes bare minimum, and top pp time. I mean if McDavid is not on the top pp this board will melt down, and for good reason. For another example Tavares had a little over 18 minutes a game, despite his skating being an issue his rookie year. So I have a hard time thinking McDavid will get less than 19-20 minutes a game.
 

dotcommunism

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As to 20 minutes a night, ya I think he gets close to that if we had him. For example Crosby played a little over 20 minutes a game as a rookie. I don't mean to make this a McDavid will do exactly what Crosby did narrative, but look at Buffalo and tell me who is going to keep him from those minutes? Nobody. He will immediately step on the ice and be by far the most dangerous offensive option we have. And they can protect him by putting him on the wing, but he is still going to get top two line minutes bare minimum, and top pp time. I mean if McDavid is not on the top pp this board will melt down, and for good reason. For another example Tavares had a little over 18 minutes a game, despite his skating being an issue his rookie year. So I have a hard time thinking McDavid will get less than 19-20 minutes a game.

Crosby played 20 minutes a game as a rookie, yes. 13:49 per game at even strength, 5:40 per game on the power play (and 0:38 per game short handed). This season, the player with the most power play time per game is Erik Karlsson at 4:43. Crosby, back in 2005-2006, wasn't even his team's leader in PP time per game. There was a lot more power play time that season. There are over 100 players who averaged more PP time per game that season than the leader in PP ice time per game leader this year.

Now, Crosby's even strength ice time from his rookie year is depressed to a degree because there simply was not as much even strength ice time period. Still, a rookie nowadays is simply not going to see the sort of time on the power play as a rookie could during the 2005-2006 season, and is going to find himself with less opportunities to produce
 

sabrebuild

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I think 80 points is a fantastic number for him to score. That'd be the best rookie season in a long time. The last player to score more than low 60's in his rookie season was Kane with 72 in 2008. Malkin had 85 the year before. The year before that, Crosby had 102 and Ovechkin 106. Those were different times. McDavid scoring 20 points over the norm for the top rookie scorer would the most anyone could ask of him. Yeah, one would hope he'd score above the norm (say, 70 points) because he's better than all those prospects since the ones I mentioned, but situation is important as well. His linemates are either going to be guys like Moulson and Ennis vs. top competition or guys I shudder to mention vs. easier competition.

Obviously we can't know what will happen, but I would bet that some better offensive talent might be brought in if McDavid comes to us. But even without that I would actually expect McDavid to play either on Girgs wing with Ennis, or centering on a second line with Moulson. If he gets Girgs I think that line is going to give other teams top lines trouble, not against elite top lines, but against say most of the teams in the East. If he gets Moulson, Moulson no longer is the slow useless possession player we don't care for now, he is the sniper that picks up 30 goals again because McDavid serves up bombs for him repeatedly all season. Would that be shocking? I don't think so.

I totally agree that the league is not as wide open as it was for Crosby or Malkin, though it is not that much tighter than it was for Kane. And to be honest McDavid is a far superior player to Kane.
 

EichHart

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I think 50 pts is a lock for a player of his caliber. 70+ would be tough but I can see it happening. Nolans system is usually not conducive for high point totals though.
 

sabrebuild

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Crosby played 20 minutes a game as a rookie, yes. 13:49 per game at even strength, 5:40 per game on the power play (and 0:38 per game short handed). This season, the player with the most power play time per game is Erik Karlsson at 4:43. Crosby, back in 2005-2006, wasn't even his team's leader in PP time per game. There was a lot more power play time that season. There are over 100 players who averaged more PP time per game that season than the leader in PP ice time per game leader this year.

Now, Crosby's even strength ice time from his rookie year is depressed to a degree because there simply was not as much even strength ice time period. Still, a rookie nowadays is simply not going to see the sort of time on the power play as a rookie could during the 2005-2006 season, and is going to find himself with less opportunities to produce

Absolutely, the pp time is not going to be there, but as you mentioned the increase in es time will make up a lot of that difference. The lack of pp production is definitely a factor and why I think McDavid will put 20+ pts less than Crosby, amongst other reasons.

Look at Zemgus last year. Zemgus averaged 15 minutes a game, with almost no pp time, and getting basically 3-4th line minutes for the first half of the season. He's at 19+ this year, with limited pp time for most of this season. I would bet McDavid gets similar ice time next year as Girgs got this year.
 

Paxon

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Obviously we can't know what will happen, but I would bet that some better offensive talent might be brought in if McDavid comes to us. But even without that I would actually expect McDavid to play either on Girgs wing with Ennis, or centering on a second line with Moulson. If he gets Girgs I think that line is going to give other teams top lines trouble, not against elite top lines, but against say most of the teams in the East. If he gets Moulson, Moulson no longer is the slow useless possession player we don't care for now, he is the sniper that picks up 30 goals again because McDavid serves up bombs for him repeatedly all season. Would that be shocking? I don't think so.

I totally agree that the league is not as wide open as it was for Crosby or Malkin, though it is not that much tighter than it was for Kane. And to be honest McDavid is a far superior player to Kane.

McDavid may be a superior prospect to Kane but Kane had everything to step in and produce right away in spite of his lack of strength. So does McDavid (perhaps to a slightly lesser degree because he relies on physicality in puck protection more often), but I am saying it'd be good if he matches Kane's production from a different period, which seems pretty fair to both players to me. Let's not forget Kane put up 2.50 points per in his draft year, which was his first season in the OHL.

McDavid is almost certainly not going to be used on the PK next year. I really doubt he averages more than 18 minutes on the balance of the season if he plays for us. Like dotcommunism said, the league, much less the Sabres, does have the amount of powerplays that boosted the ice time of rookies like Crosby. I wouldn't expect McDavid to get top minutes at even strength, especially not in the first half of the season.
 

Zip15

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For those predicting 70 for McDavid: Who do you think he'll be playing with to get him to those numbers? Or does it not matter because he's #generational?

I'll say 54 in 74 if McDavid is in Buffalo. For Eichel, I'll say 49 in 78.
 

sabrebuild

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McDavid may be a superior prospect to Kane but Kane had everything to step in and produce right away in spite of his lack of strength. So does McDavid (perhaps to a slightly lesser degree because he relies on physicality in puck protection more often), but I am saying it'd be good if he matches Kane's production from a different period, which seems pretty fair to both players to me. Let's not forget Kane put up 2.50 points per in his draft year, which was his first season in the OHL.

McDavid is almost certainly not going to be used on the PK next year. I really doubt he averages more than 18 minutes on the balance of the season if he plays for us. Like dotcommunism said, the league, much less the Sabres, does have the amount of powerplays that boosted the ice time of rookies like Crosby. I wouldn't expect McDavid to get top minutes at even strength, especially not in the first half of the season.

Not to get crazy but per the bios, McDavid has the same build as Zemgus does. So I'm not worried about how his physicality will be a problem at all. I think it will be very confusing and hard to understand why McDavid will get less minutes than any forward on the team other than Girgs. Again, yes he is a rookie, but he will just be so much better than every other forward on the team next year. Even with Nolan's negative feelings on young guys, McDavid covers his work ethic needs in spades, and if there is a similar situation to the Reinhart limitations from this season, I would hope Murray fires Nolan on the spot.
 

Sabre the Win

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McDavid is already training with Gary Roberts, with his skill set and the strength conditioning hes doing, he will be able to step in and compete from the get go.
 

Zip15

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Not to get crazy but per the bios, McDavid has the same build as Zemgus does. So I'm not worried about how his physicality will be a problem at all. I think it will be very confusing and hard to understand why McDavid will get less minutes than any forward on the team other than Girgs. Again, yes he is a rookie, but he will just be so much better than every other forward on the team next year. Even with Nolan's negative feelings on young guys, McDavid covers his work ethic needs in spades, and if there is a similar situation to the Reinhart limitations from this season, I would hope Murray fires Nolan on the spot.

Pump the breaks there. Girgs looked like a man when he was drafted. McDavid, looks like a young man, but their builds aren't the same at the same stage.
 

Bps21*

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I watch McDavid get pushed off the play a lot...but he usually finds himself with another play shortly after. I have zero doubts he will tear up regular seasons throughout his career. Playoff hockey is tighter...and we've seen that good teams in the playoffs can make almost anyone invisible in this league now...but I'm sure he will figure it out.m his brain keeps up with his legs.
 

1972

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McDavid had 66 (Lemieux) points as a 15-16 year old in the OHL, and 99 (Gretzky) as a 16-17 year old in the OHL.

I'll go with a 66 point rookie season for McDavid. He is too skilled, too fast and to good not to crack 50 points next year.
 

1972

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For those predicting 70 for McDavid: Who do you think he'll be playing with to get him to those numbers? Or does it not matter because he's #generational?

I'll say 54 in 74 if McDavid is in Buffalo. For Eichel, I'll say 49 in 78.

I don't think around 70 points for McDavid is some outlandish proposition, our roster today probably isn't going to be close to the roster come next September. He is the best prospect we have seen in 10 years, as long as the team around him can improve and score around 210 goals I don't think it's crazy, if the team is still a 150 goal team that will not happen but with an actual NHL D and a couple solid adds up front it's not unreasonable.

I don't actually expect him to get 70 points, i think 50-60 is most probable.
 
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Paxon

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Not to get crazy but per the bios, McDavid has the same build as Zemgus does. So I'm not worried about how his physicality will be a problem at all. I think it will be very confusing and hard to understand why McDavid will get less minutes than any forward on the team other than Girgs. Again, yes he is a rookie, but he will just be so much better than every other forward on the team next year. Even with Nolan's negative feelings on young guys, McDavid covers his work ethic needs in spades, and if there is a similar situation to the Reinhart limitations from this season, I would hope Murray fires Nolan on the spot.

McDavid had a great summer of workouts but right now there's just no question in my mind that he doesn't have the strength to do everything he does in juniors. He gets pushed around at times in juniors, he certainly will in the NHL to start. Of course Kane was even smaller but he plays a different game. McDavid plays hard in the dirty areas, hangs on down low, etc. The main factors behind his play in those areas are the quickness of his hands and feet, his vision, and his IQ, but he also uses what size he does have more than he'll immediately be able to in the NHL. He will have to adjust to that until he gets stronger. He may be listed at a similar height and weight to Girgensons but there's no way he's as strong as Zemgus is.

I just think it's very hard to formulate expectations for what he could or should do if he's on this team next season. What kind of situation would he find himself in? What kind of strength does he add this offseason? Is he being told to let loose and provide the team with a spark or is he being told to play within the pace of the team, try his best defensively, etc. It's not a given that he'd start on the top PP unit. Reinhart didn't get any PP time at first.
 

sabrebuild

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Pump the breaks there. Girgs looked like a man when he was drafted. McDavid, looks like a young man, but their builds aren't the same at the same stage.

Don't get confused by McDavid having a baby face on his pic and Zemgus looking like an Eastern European mercenary.

McDavid is listed at 6'1" 189
Girgensons is at 6'1" 190

Girgs probably weighs closer to 195 if I had to guess, assuming NHL.com is way off. But I would guess McDavid comes to camp at around 190-195. While I wouldn't take major stock in WJC for telling you everything about a prospect, it does reveal a bit on how well you handle talented players with NHL lite size and speed. And McDavid stood out with a couple of other guys as incredible pure athletes.
 

1972

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Don't get confused by McDavid having a baby face on his pic and Zemgus looking like an Eastern European mercenary.

McDavid is listed at 6'1" 189
Girgensons is at 6'1" 190

Girgs probably weighs closer to 195 if I had to guess, assuming NHL.com is way off. But I would guess McDavid comes to camp at around 190-195. While I wouldn't take major stock in WJC for telling you everything about a prospect, it does reveal a bit on how well you handle talented players with NHL lite size and speed. And McDavid stood out with a couple of other guys as incredible pure athletes.

Sam Reinhart 6-1 190
Zemgus Girgensons 6-1 190
 

sabrebuild

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McDavid had a great summer of workouts but right now there's just no question in my mind that he doesn't have the strength to do everything he does in juniors. He gets pushed around at times in juniors, he certainly will in the NHL to start. Of course Kane was even smaller but he plays a different game. McDavid plays hard in the dirty areas, hangs on down low, etc. The main factors behind his play in those areas are the quickness of his hands and feet, his vision, and his IQ, but he also uses what size he does have more than he'll immediately be able to in the NHL. He will have to adjust to that until he gets stronger. He may be listed at a similar height and weight to Girgensons but there's no way he's as strong as Zemgus is.

I just think it's very hard to formulate expectations for what he could or should do if he's on this team next season. What kind of situation would he find himself in? What kind of strength does he add this offseason? Is he being told to let loose and provide the team with a spark or is he being told to play within the pace of the team, try his best defensively, etc. It's not a given that he'd start on the top PP unit. Reinhart didn't get any PP time at first.

Obviously he will not be able to do everything that he can do in juniors. But we kind of take that into account since I don't think he will score anywhere near that level. Some of his individual hero hockey won't work, but his passing will work even better at this level with better team positional play and finishing ability. I think his game will translate excellently to the NHL.

Very few players are as brute force strong as Zemgus is at his weight, and I don't think Zemgus will be as powerful. But they have a similar frame and weight, which will let McDavid still use his puck protection skills excellently. There are many guys in the NHL who are not bigger than McDavid that excel in dirty goals.

I'm not having expectations of him that I will hold against him if he doesn't get there, I'm simply projecting what I think he is capable of him. It's the same as when everyone in the world looks at him and says he is one of the best prospects in over a decade. Except I am giving a hard number for what that great prospect talk translates into actual production.

He certainly could be told to play conservatively or within the team, but I mean come on. This team needs offense and they are not going to load him with pk time as has been agreed by everybody. They are not going to make him a part of some shutdown line, nor is he playing in the bottom six with Des, Kaleta, and Flynn. It is possible a worst case scenario of coaching stupidity could happen, but I don't think I should be overly conservative in a projection just to account for that possibility.

As to Reinhart not getting pp time. I think that was dumb by Nolan, but its irrelevant because I love Reinhart as a player, but McDavid is such a jump above him in terms of readiness for the NHL as an 18 year old that it's absurd.
 

sabrebuild

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Sam Reinhart 6-1 190
Zemgus Girgensons 6-1 190

And so is your neighbor in a cubicle. Did you miss the part were McDavid is a super athlete that can skate at an elite NHL level, better than Zemgus. Cute, but since Reinhart and McDavid show almost no resemblance as physical athletes, relatively pointless.
 

Moskau

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What does everyone think of Chabot? People either think he's a steal in the late 1st or it's too high. He was crazy bad defensively when I saw him at times last year and his defensive IQ was non existent. He started off okay this season but has gotten better as St John rolls on. He's improved leaps and bounds defensively without sacrificing his offensive game too much but players like him generally scare me. He will likely be the highest rated defensemen available when Buffalo picks with STL/NYI's pick.
 

Montag DP

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And so is your neighbor in a cubicle. Did you miss the part were McDavid is a super athlete that can skate at an elite NHL level, better than Zemgus. Cute, but since Reinhart and McDavid show almost no resemblance as physical athletes, relatively pointless.
I think that was the point. That you can't just look at the height and weight and say they are built similarly.
 

sabrebuild

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I think that was the point. That you can't just look at the height and weight and say they are built similarly.

And the point was rebutted. I have seen McDavid and Reinhart both play. The physiques needed for the pure physics of McDavid's game along with his height and weight combo requires him to be a physically strong kid. And as Moskau said above I said frame/build, not that he would be exactly as strong as Zemgus in the hitting department or pure upper body strength. I don't think it will be something that hurts his game hugely at the NHL level.
 
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