2015-16 Lineup Discussion

[Sojourn]

Didn't the 2007 Ducks have Huskins-Dipenta/Jackman as the third pairing? If you only play them 12-16 minutes, you'll be fine.

I'd be more worried about whether Vatanen could handle the extra time.

The 2007 Ducks also had three defensemen capable of playing 30 minutes a game. Two of them were Norris-contenders.

I'm not saying we couldn't try to protect the D pairing, but I don't think we have the players for that kind of sheltering.

 

[Kalv]

Headline on our website:
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''LESSON LEARNED

The Ducks used last night's OT loss as a reminder of the importance of playing 60-minute hockey.''
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Weellll, if the game goes into OT you have to play more than 60 minutes, don`t you. But we did play 60 minute game because that Getzlafs assist to Boedker was a play that is not acceptable even in practices. So there`s that.

But seeing how we played good first part of the game vs Yotes, maybe 60-minute game means including all the stopages and intermissions? Then 60 minutes ends in the first part of 2nd period or something like that. Kind of ''be careful what you wish for''

We need to play a solid well rounded 3 hour game boys!

 

[darkwingduck]

Can't wait for nate Thompson to come back. We need help in the face off circles, and he plays well with cogliano, I'd personally would put Santa on their right wing and you get sort of a ghost of the (saku,cog,winnik) line. When rakell comes back we'll have 6 potential centers, I'd like to try rakell at 1st line lw.

Rakell-getz-perry
Hags-kesler-silf
Cog-thompson-santa
Maroon-horcoff/wag-stew/wag

Maroon can play with the 1st line, but he's extremely effective in a limited role. Without Sekac, rakell doesn't have too many players he seems to have chemistry with.

 

[snarktacular]

Conversation started in the GDT, moved here and refined by me.

What do you, as a coach, do with Kevin Bieksa? Keeping in mind that we are probably stuck with him. We are being hurt by overaggressive play, whether that be through ill-advised pinches or poor passes.

Do you try to staple him to the blue line and mandate that he play conservatively? But that takes away from what used to be his strength, and he kind of has always played that way. The problem now is that he's slowing down and not able to execute on those high-risk plays as much any more.

Similarly, if you try to bench him and make him watch tape and use it as a learning experience, again it's trying to teach a guy something to do something that he hasn't really done historically.

Do you put him with a guy who can cover for him? And that may be on the 2nd pair if we get a solid 2nd pairing guy (Lindholm was supposed to be that, but he hasn't been) or on the 3rd pair to limit the mistakes.


One thing I wonder is if getting Bieksa was a conscientious move to try to deal with the already-decided loss of Vatanen. Basically Bob decided ahead of time that he wasn't going to keep Vatanen, so he got Bieksa to try to fill that role. Because he surely couldn't have expected that Bieksa would actually fill the Beauchemin role of being a solid defensive guy, could he? It almost makes sense, because sans Vatanen we don't really have an offensive guy.

 

[idiroft]

Get Despres healthy, demote Bieksa, call up Montour. Try to generate as much offense as possible from the blueline with

Fowler - Vatanen
Lindholm - Manson
Despres - Montour

 

[Exit Dose]

Bieksa isn't going to get demoted.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

Montour is not ready to play in the NHL.

 

[Goose of Reason]

Conversation started in the GDT, moved here and refined by me.

What do you, as a coach, do with Kevin Bieksa? Keeping in mind that we are probably stuck with him. We are being hurt by overaggressive play, whether that be through ill-advised pinches or poor passes.

Do you try to staple him to the blue line and mandate that he play conservatively? But that takes away from what used to be his strength, and he kind of has always played that way. The problem now is that he's slowing down and not able to execute on those high-risk plays as much any more.

Similarly, if you try to bench him and make him watch tape and use it as a learning experience, again it's trying to teach a guy something to do something that he hasn't really done historically.

Do you put him with a guy who can cover for him? And that may be on the 2nd pair if we get a solid 2nd pairing guy (Lindholm was supposed to be that, but he hasn't been) or on the 3rd pair to limit the mistakes.


One thing I wonder is if getting Bieksa was a conscientious move to try to deal with the already-decided loss of Vatanen. Basically Bob decided ahead of time that he wasn't going to keep Vatanen, so he got Bieksa to try to fill that role. Because he surely couldn't have expected that Bieksa would actually fill the Beauchemin role of being a solid defensive guy, could he? It almost makes sense, because sans Vatanen we don't really have an offensive guy.

Well, at first I scream my head off at him for being a "veteran" that doesn't understand how to play defense, and how if he's supposed to be a leader he doesn't play like one. Then I bench him for a game. If he comes back and doesn't fix those mistakes I bench him again. Holzer has readily outplayed him. If he complains, great, give him the Lecavalier treatment. Make him want to waive his clause. Will Kesler get mad and not want to play for us? I doubt it, he's a professional. Is Carter giving up on the Kings after the Richards situation? Of course not because he's there to win. I don't think Murray would do anything (in terms of firing the coach), he's realized and fixed his mistakes before.

I mean, ideally he'd be sent to Utah where he can play with players of his caliber, but we're stuck with him. Unless Columbus takes him, they need defense and love terrible contracts.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

Well, at first I scream my head off at him for being a "veteran" that doesn't understand how to play defense, and how if he's supposed to be a leader he doesn't play like one. Then I bench him for a game. If he comes back and doesn't fix those mistakes I bench him again. Holzer has readily outplayed him. If he complains, great, give him the Lecavalier treatment. Make him want to waive his clause. Will Kesler get mad and not want to play for us? I doubt it, he's a professional. Is Carter giving up on the Kings after the Richards situation? Of course not because he's there to win. I don't think Murray would do anything (in terms of firing the coach), he's realized and fixed his mistakes before.

I mean, ideally he'd be sent to Utah where he can play with players of his caliber, but we're stuck with him. Unless Columbus takes him, they need defense and love terrible contracts.

 

[CrazyDuck4u]

Stoner has more goals than Getzlaf and Silverberg, Thats all im going to say at the moment.. This team is in dire trouble..

 

[Getzmonster]

There is no easy answer while Despres is out, so for now I'd probably go with the lesser of two evils and go with a Bieksa-Stoner pairing. That keeps the same dynamic as Vats-Stoner with Clayton being SAH knowing his partner will wander, and if Bruce was willing to adjust their minutes accordingly I think they could be a serviceable 3rd pair.

Cam is the best babysitter on the back end at the moment, so I'd put Manson with him (also adds some toughness needed alongside Fowler). Lindholm is struggling a little this season, and Vats has been playing as well as normal, if not a little better so far. To me that is a pretty balanced pair waiting to happen, neither really carrying the other. So:

Fowler - Manson
Lindholm - Vats
Stoner - Bieksa

Holzer

 

[bumperkisser]

There is no easy answer while Despres is out, so for now I'd probably go with the lesser of two evils and go with a Bieksa-Stoner pairing. That keeps the same dynamic as Vats-Stoner with Clayton being SAH knowing his partner will wander, and if Bruce was willing to adjust their minutes accordingly I think they could be a serviceable 3rd pair.

Cam is the best babysitter on the back end at the moment, so I'd put Manson with him (also adds some toughness needed alongside Fowler). Lindholm is struggling a little this season, and Vats has been playing as well as normal, if not a little better so far. To me that is a pretty balanced pair waiting to happen, neither really carrying the other. So:

Fowler - Manson
Lindholm - Vats
Stoner - Bieksa

Holzer

tbh this would make me happy. even holzer in for bieksa if its in a sheltered role would also make me happy.

 

[Sean Garrity]

Load the top 4, and play Bieksa with Stoner. He's our only true stay at home dman afterall.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

This team is done. The chemistry is not there, the best players are going downhill faster than most of us expected, young guys like Silf and Hampus are regressing instead of progressing, and the supporting cast just isn't good enough.

But the bigger issue is that the salary structure of this team is based on being a cup contender for another 2-3 years at least. And that isn't reality any more. This team will be lucky to battle for a playoff spot this year and the next couple of years. Under those circumstances we are royally screwed.

Kesler is on his way to having a worse contract than Dustin Brown. Getzlaf and Perry will always show flashes of brilliance, but not consistently enough to be the leaders we need them to be.

This year just needs to play out and see where the chips fall. But this summer it's time for a real housecleaning. BM and BB need to go. A new GM can try and figure out what to do with the roster. Everybody (and I mean everybody) should be available, but preferable the biggest anchors should go first. The sooner the team realizes the need to rebuild, the sooner it can begin. The last thing we need is to be pretenders for another couple of years and just delay the rebuild. Hopefully Getz and Perry will be willing to play somewhere else for a cup and waive their NMC.

 

[AngelDuck]

This team is done. The chemistry is not there, the best players are going downhill faster than most of us expected, young guys like Silf and Hampus are regressing instead of progressing, and the supporting cast just isn't good enough.

But the bigger issue is that the salary structure of this team is based on being a cup contender for another 2-3 years at least. And that isn't reality any more. This team will be lucky to battle for a playoff spot this year and the next couple of years. Under those circumstances we are royally screwed.

Kesler is on his way to having a worse contract than Dustin Brown. Getzlaf and Perry will always show flashes of brilliance, but not consistently enough to be the leaders we need them to be.

This year just needs to play out and see where the chips fall. But this summer it's time for a real housecleaning. BM and BB need to go. A new GM can try and figure out what to do with the roster. Everybody (and I mean everybody) should be available, but preferable the biggest anchors should go first. The sooner the team realizes the need to rebuild, the sooner it can begin. The last thing we need is to be pretenders for another couple of years and just delay the rebuild. Hopefully Getz and Perry will be willing to play somewhere else for a cup and waive their NMC.

This is the very sad truth and exactly what I feared when we gave Kesler that contract.

We're seemingly at a crossroads as an organization. They can either continue to fool themselves or they can start rebuilding things. It'll be interesting but I certainly don't trust Murray's decision making at this point

Attendance is going to continue to sink, and the Samueli's are already losing money(even when we were good). Would it surprise anyone if they sold the team? Not saying they will but I wonder how bad it has to get for them to consider it.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

This is the very sad truth and exactly what I feared when we gave Kesler that contract.

We're seemingly at a crossroads as an organization. They can either continue to fool themselves or they can start rebuilding things. It'll be interesting but I certainly don't trust Murray's decision making at this point

Attendance is going to continue to sink, and the Samueli's are already losing money(even when we were good). Would it surprise anyone if they sold the team? Not saying they will but I wonder how bad it has to get for them to consider it.

I knew Kesler wasn't good for 7 more years, but I really thought we had a good 2-3 year opportunity for a cup or two, in which case I could have accepted it. To realize everybody turned to **** so quickly is devastating to the organization.

 

[Sean Garrity]

Kesler's contract didn't cause this.

We lost a lot of skill and chemistry in the offseason among other things.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Kesler's contract didn't cause this.

We lost a lot of skill and chemistry in the offseason among other things.

Nobody said it did. Read it again.

 

[Sean Garrity]

Nobody said it did. Read it again.

Wasn't directed at anyone specifically, but people continuously bring up his contract. I think 95% of us thought the term was horrible, but that it was intended to buy us a 2-3 year window as you stated. The problem with the current team is irrelevant to the Kesler contract was my only point.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Wasn't directed at anyone specifically, but people continuously bring up his contract. I think 95% of us thought the term was horrible, but that it was intended to buy us a 2-3 year window as you stated. The problem with the current team is irrelevant to the Kesler contract was my only point.

OK, I agree.

 

[snarktacular]

This team is done. The chemistry is not there, the best players are going downhill faster than most of us expected, young guys like Silf and Hampus are regressing instead of progressing, and the supporting cast just isn't good enough.

But the bigger issue is that the salary structure of this team is based on being a cup contender for another 2-3 years at least. And that isn't reality any more. This team will be lucky to battle for a playoff spot this year and the next couple of years. Under those circumstances we are royally screwed.

Kesler is on his way to having a worse contract than Dustin Brown. Getzlaf and Perry will always show flashes of brilliance, but not consistently enough to be the leaders we need them to be.

This year just needs to play out and see where the chips fall. But this summer it's time for a real housecleaning. BM and BB need to go. A new GM can try and figure out what to do with the roster. Everybody (and I mean everybody) should be available, but preferable the biggest anchors should go first. The sooner the team realizes the need to rebuild, the sooner it can begin. The last thing we need is to be pretenders for another couple of years and just delay the rebuild. Hopefully Getz and Perry will be willing to play somewhere else for a cup and waive their NMC.

Offseason 2014, trade deadline 2015, knocked out 2015: It's OK that we didn't go for it, guys. Our window is just opening!

What if the GM had had some balls and moved Palmieri, Etem, etc out for rental help before their values started dropping?

I also remember arguing that Kesler was in danger of regressing soon and listing other guys like Mike Richards who had similar trajectories. Age, physical style while being smaller, etc. And was told that those multiple people were exceptions. The twins regressing offensively should also not be too much of a surprise, offensive primes for forwards is about 27.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Offseason 2014, trade deadline 2015, knocked out 2015: It's OK that we didn't go for it, guys. Our window is just opening!

What if the GM had had some balls and moved Palmieri, Etem, etc out for rental help before their values started dropping?

I also remember arguing that Kesler was in danger of regressing soon and listing other guys like Mike Richards who had similar trajectories. Age, physical style while being smaller, etc. And was told that those multiple people were exceptions. The twins regressing offensively should also not be too much of a surprise, offensive primes for forwards is about 27.

Yeah, the last couple of years a lot of people kept trying to say our window was still to come. You can't just make an assumption like that when you're two best players are already past their physical prime.

Nobody knows how long it takes for players to fade but it isn't exactly rocket science to look at a few facts. Kesler, while still a big contributor last year was known to be on the downside of his career already. He plays a hard and physical game that doesn't lend itself to longevity. Getz and Perry are hugely talented. But they are big and slow and we have seen many dry spells that have been quite ugly in past years. Neither is know to be big on health and off season training. Talent alone does not keep you at the top when you are playing with the worlds best players every night.

Sure, these guys will not stay this bad all the rest of the year. But does anybody think when they pick it up, it will last the remainder of the season at that level? I don't think so. The inconsistencies in their game is here to stay and we don't have enough of a supporting cast to make it up.

We are in no mans land until somebody in management recognizes we need to change direction. I guess now we will see just what Henry's real objective is for this team. Do we want to try and win a cup, or just be good enough to come up with a new t-shirt slogan each year.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Offseason 2014, trade deadline 2015, knocked out 2015: It's OK that we didn't go for it, guys. Our window is just opening!

What if the GM had had some balls and moved Palmieri, Etem, etc out for rental help before their values started dropping?

I also remember arguing that Kesler was in danger of regressing soon and listing other guys like Mike Richards who had similar trajectories. Age, physical style while being smaller, etc. And was told that those multiple people were exceptions. The twins regressing offensively should also not be too much of a surprise, offensive primes for forwards is about 27.

Mike Richards and Kesler are awful comparables, in almost every way. Richards is a fairly exceptional case on his own, but trying to compare the two is laughable and fairly ignorant, especially when it comes to Richards.

Not saying Kesler is going to be an effective player into his late 30s or anything, but the Mike Richards comparison is just lazy, and again, largely ignorant.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Yeah, the last couple of years a lot of people kept trying to say our window was still to come. You can't just make an assumption like that when you're two best players are already past their physical prime.

Nobody knows how long it takes for players to fade but it isn't exactly rocket science to look at a few facts. Kesler, while still a big contributor last year was known to be on the downside of his career already. He plays a hard and physical game that doesn't lend itself to longevity. Getz and Perry are hugely talented. But they are big and slow and we have seen many dry spells that have been quite ugly in past years. Neither is know to be big on health and off season training. Talent alone does not keep you at the top when you are playing with the worlds best players every night.

Sure, these guys will not stay this bad all the rest of the year. But does anybody think when they pick it up, it will last the remainder of the season at that level? I don't think so. The inconsistencies in their game is here to stay and we don't have enough of a supporting cast to make it up.

We are in no mans land until somebody in management recognizes we need to change direction. I guess now we will see just what Henry's real objective is for this team. Do we want to try and win a cup, or just be good enough to come up with a new t-shirt slogan each year.

To be honest, I'm not even sure if Kesler's really regressed all that much. It's not what you think, I just think his "prime" was vastly overrated. 20-25 goals, 50ish points, that's really always been Kesler. The 70 point seasons were two different flukes IMO, one with 50 assists and the other the 40 goals. You look at the year to year comparisons in both columns, and those two years in those two categories really jump out. He went from like 30 to 50 to 30 assists and 25 to 40 to 25 goals.

 

[snarktacular]

Mike Richards and Kesler are awful comparables, in almost every way. Richards is a fairly exceptional case on his own, but trying to compare the two is laughable and fairly ignorant, especially when it comes to Richards.

Not saying Kesler is going to be an effective player into his late 30s or anything, but the Mike Richards comparison is just lazy, and again, largely ignorant.

So I actually took the time to look it up, and my argument was actually not for Kesler. It was for Phaneuf. But a lot of the underlying issues remain the same. And in fact this could also apply to Bieksa, who is 2 years older. The point was that physical guys from that draft are slowing down, meaning that other guys from that age group are probably approaching their best buy dates soon too. And you were one of the most vehemently anti cases then too. In fact I feel like you are very generally against ever using comparables.

To use only Richards would not be a strong case. That is true. But the case was bigger than that. a) Multiple guys from that draft are slowing down, with some looking like they are completely done b) The historical trend of all players is that this is the norm c) It feels like this downward trend is even more pronounced for physical players like these and d) It also feels like this trend is more of an issue for players whose main strengths were physical tools.

I'll make an visualization. Normally you expect a population (of pretty much anything) to be a normal bell-type curve. We are already seeing the far edge of people who are declining from that draft cohort. We don't know how far away the tail ends are from the main body of the population, but more likely than not the main body is coming.