Salary Cap: 2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster Building / Proposal Thread Part XIII

[Vinny DeAngelo]

What is hanzal going to cost??

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

'Bout a hundred dollars.

 

[Tawnos]

People keep mentioning Miller. I'm not sure the organization sees him as a moveable piece. Remember they moved Dubinsky and Anisimov before Kreider. Cap space is an asset. Hagelin is soon going to be paid well. 3.5-3.75 per season pretty easily on any deal with any term. Can the Rangers pay a 3rd line winger on this team that kind of money? With the types of players who are rookies this year and those who seem on the way, I think it would be wiser to invest in either a true puck mover or a big bodied center.

The way I see it, Nash's ability to play both wings is going to give the Rangers some options in a situation where Hanzal is on the roster.

Hagelin and Zuccarello. Provided neither is dealt for Hanzal, whichever one takes less will be the one the Rangers look to keep. You term Hagelin a 3rd line player, but he's a player that you can plug into a top-6 role in stretches. He's more of a tweener who's best on the 3rd line. The idea being that once of you Duclair or Buchnevich on the team, you can spell them in the top-6 as they go through their bouts of inconsistency by utilizing Hagelin there. Or potentially Hayes, who I'm not 100% sold on as a center any way.

You keep Hagelin, you switch Nash back to RW. You keep Zuccarello, you keep Nash as an LW. There's flexibility to be had there.

I'm fine with whatever decision the Rangers would make there... but personally, I'd rather see the Rangers lose Zuccarello than Hagelin. I view Hags as a pace setter for the team and when you're team is based on speed, that's incredibly important. Intangibles are why I keep Hags over Zucc. But again, fine either way.

 

[Thirty One]

'Bout a hundred dollars.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

 

[Inferno]

I ain't give you no ******* tree fitty you god damn loch ness monster...get your own damn money!

 

[pld459666]

How can Hanzal not be redundant but Vermette is? The only thing that Hanzal brings that Vermette doesn't is a ton of size. And it's not like Vermette is undersized.

The big difference is cost. Hanzal requires a signifant roster structure change. Losing a winger for a stronger center group. Vermette would mean keeping the same basic team we have.

So it depends on what your philosophy is.

Yeah, I'm not understanding that either.

An undersized pass first winger? That would be redundant.

A defenceman that doesn't offer much offensive ability? Redundant.

A center that is better than average at both ends of the ice while winning more FO's than he loses and kills penalties? The only center we have that can do that (less the FO issue) is Stepan.

I think both Vermette and Hanzal are probably going to be to pricey to acquire.

One being a UFA meaning a slew of teams are going to look to add him meaning bidding war. The other being signed for 2 years after this at good cap hit.

Personally, I think Vermette is the better player, more consistent producer and a much more reliable player.

The issue for me with Hanzal is this:

2015
2/09/2015 Upper body injury, injured reserve.
1/31/2015 Upper body injury, day-to-day.
1/15/2015 Missed 4 games (upper body injury).
1/13/2015 Upper body injury, injured reserve.
1/06/2015 Upper body injury, day-to-day.
2014
11/25/2014 Missed 4 games (lower body injury).
11/18/2014 Lower body injury, day-to-day.
10/28/2014 Missed 3 games (lower body injury).

Not including the amount of games he is going to miss with his most recent injury, he already missed 11 due to various ailments.

He's not a trust worthy player to remain in the line up on a daily basis.

I'd take the more proven, consistent, healthy player in Vermette over Hanzal regardless of the advanced stats. Especially when I consider both players even defensively and in the face off circles and the deciding factors are offensive production and health.

To me it's an easy decision.

Not to mention that eventually, and that will be sooner then most want to acknowledge, the year in and year out issues that Hanzal has been dealing with are going to catch up. He hasn't played in more than 90% of his teams games since 09-10

Way to many red flags with that issue right there.

 

[silverfish]

Larry Brooks reads HF...

http://nypost.com/2015/02/09/leafs-winger-santorelli-would-fit-well-in-blueshirt/

A. The Blueshirts have an extremely limited amount of cap space on hand and thus decided to carry the minimum 12 forwards for the time being;

B. The Blueshirts don’t have a winger playing in Hartford whom management believes can contribute;

C. The Rangers won’t need an extra forward for the rest of the trip because they will be leaving Toronto with Mike Santorelli, the Maple Leafs’ pending unrestricted free agent who is being shopped by the club and whom the Blueshirts covet as a rental property to solve their third-line and bottom-six issues.

The most logical choice is A.

The most depressing choice is B.

The most tantalizing, albeit least likely, choice would be C.

The only thing Santo has over Vermette or Hanzal is cost to acquire.

Hell, Brooks goes on to speculate that the Rangers could move Miller for Santorelli. That's laughable. And people here don't think Hanzal will command that.

 

[Off Sides]

Santorelli is a decent player, but I'd be surprised if he cost much more, or anything more than a 3rd round pick.

If he does cost more, I'd think the Rangers could get a better player for whatever he did cost.

Perhaps Miller does go, but I would have to think it would be for some sort of package deal where the Rangers get back something of near equal value.

I really dislike the idea of trading Miller, I think if the organization was patient he could follow a similar path as Colin Wilson did. If they are not getting back something that has that sort of potential it really does not make much sense to me for them to move him.



Really when I think about it, and I'll get hate for this (maybe rightfully so) , are the Rangers that good?

Their starter is out, unknown timetable for return. Their #1 D has not looked all that great. Girardi has been so so but still is not a puck mover, MSL and Boyle appear to have lost more than we would have liked. AV does not seem interested in seeing what Miller can do and he loves to play Glass.

Other than Nash, Stepan, Brassard and to a lesser extent Kreider, Staal, Klein, and now that Zucc seems to be coming on... I'm not convinced this is the year they should be going all in.

I understand the reasoning/timing behind them maybe doing so, but if it does not work, if Lundqvist is out or rusty longer than what is being guessed, if McD plays like a #3ish, if Boyle and/or MSL look like Richards did last year, it's going to seem like they gave up some long term assets here for a futile cup run should at least some of their most important current players not step up their games, and really if Lundqvist is not himself or out, it really probably does not matter how well the other guys do or what they bring in.

Not sure it's a good gamble.

 

[silverfish]

Santorelli is a decent player, but I'd be surprised if he cost much more, or anything more than a 3rd round pick.

If he does cost more, I'd think the Rangers could get a better player for whatever he did cost.

Perhaps Miller does go, but I would have to think it would be for some sort of package deal where the Rangers get back something of near equal value.

I really dislike the idea of trading Miller, I think if the organization was patient he could follow a similar path as Colin Wilson did. If they are not getting back something that has that sort of potential it really does not make much sense to me for them to move him.



Really when I think about it, and I'll get hate for this (maybe rightfully so) , are the Rangers that good?

Their starter is out, unknown timetable for return. Their #1 D has not looked all that great. Girardi has been so so but still is not a puck mover, MSL and Boyle appear to have lost more than we would have liked. AV does not seem interested in seeing what Miller can do and he loves to play Glass.

Other than Nash, Stepan, Brassard and to a lesser extent Kreider, Staal, Klein, and now that Zucc seems to be coming on... I'm not convinced this is the year they should be going all in.

I understand the reasoning/timing behind them maybe doing so, but if it does not work, if Lundqvist is out or rusty longer than what is being guessed, if McD plays like a #3ish, if Boyle and/or MSL look like Richards did last year, it's going to seem like they gave up some long term assets here for a futile cup run should at least some of their most important current players not step up their games, and really if Lundqvist is not himself or out, it really probably does not matter how well the other guys do or what they bring in.

Not sure it's a good gamble.

I see your thought process, for sure... but it banks on a lot of things going wrong (ie. McD and G not picking up their play. Same for MSL and Boyle, etc...)

The east this year is wide open. There are a handful of teams that can come out of it.

On Hank, it's not like it's a body injury, ya know? It's not a hip, or a leg, or a shoulder, anything that will effect his physical play on the ice. Dude just has to heal.

I have a very aggressive opinion than others on this board, but the way I feel... as long as Hank is playing at an elite level, I'm all-in. Hank was playing at an elite level before the injury, which for all intents and purposes shouldn't effect his game, so I go all-in.

In no universe do I trade Miller for Santorelli, but in this universe, I'd trade him for Vermette or in a package for Hanzal. No questions or hesitations.

 

[Off Sides]

The reason I am not so sure about Lundqvist is from what I have read about the injury, he is going to be re-evaluated in 3 weeks, so until that happens they really are not going to know much of anything. Since they are not exactly forthcoming on the exact injury, if it's a big or small rip, strain etc in a major vessel, it's just tough to tell. If he is re-evaluated and they say 3 more weeks?

Like you, I think the cup run hinges on him, unfortunately they will only have more info about the same time as the trade deadline so they may be making moves sort of blind.

Trading for rentals, especially if they use what could be longer term young cheap assets while not having definitive info would be too risky for me. If it's 3rd round picks, and it's on someone they may be able to even re-sign, or if he has a decent contract for next year/beyond, if they make some other cap savvy moves to fit him, I could see that, but pure rentals right now that cost something more major seems very risky. Out of the popular thoughts, I'd preclude Vermette, Sekera, Methot. Leaves maybe Santorelli and probably many assets for Hanzal

As far as the others, MSL I could see coming out and playing better. Boyle, I just still don't see it, he can play okay here and there, but his consistency especially production 5on5 sort of sucks.

McD sure I could see him being better, but I am not convinced he is not still injured in some capacity, even in this last game he looked like he was in discomfort from relatively soft contact.

Girardi and Staal are probably going to be what they are but offensive puck movers are not them. Klein I can not imagine his shooting % sustaining. J Moore, Hunwick, eh.

And the whole Glass thing, if the plan is to go into the playoffs with Glass in the starting line-up, with no other good option because they moved Miller, it's just not a 4 line team that is going to carry them through the whole playoffs. They can not run 3 lines and the 4th is not at least helping rest the D they are playing with if they are pinned in their own zone and giving up scoring chances.

I don't know, I guess I'd rather see them wait longer, see if they can get a better read on Lundqvist before they decide to do much of anything.

 

[silverfish]

You're too hard on Boyle. His 5v5 play has actually been pretty stellar, and he's a serious influence on the power play. I think Boyle was a great signing, and is actually playing better than I thought he would. His GA/60 at even strength (via War-On-Ice, it is 1.1. I do believe they are missing stats for Sunday's game. This is significant because Boyle was on the ice for 2 GA at even strength) is among the best in the league for defensemen. For comparison, Stralmna's GA/60 5v5 is 2.6. In an effort to be fair, Stralman gets -2.8% relative o-zone starts (still 54.1% o-zone), while Boyle receives +19.2% relative o-zone starts (62.7% o-zone) -- which ABSOLUTELY plays a factor in Boyle's incredibly low GA/60 at 5v5.

But you make good points, for sure. Hopefully the can get to Hank's re-evaluation before the trade deadline, which I believe they will, and they'll know more then.

If Sather is thinking like you, he may make a bigger push for a guy like Hanzal, who is signed cheaply for two more seasons beyond this one for what he brings to the table. It pushes Hayes to the wing, and alleviates the loss of Hagelin or Zuccarello this off-season, assuming a guy like Hags doesn't get shipped for Hanzal...

With a move for Hanzal, it's a move for the now and the future. So, if heaven forbid, Hank can't seem to come back to full form this year, or McD and G don't pick it up, or MSL stays relatively quiet 5v5, we still have Hanzal moving forward. Whereas, to your credit in your post, a guy like Vermette won't be re-signed here after this season.

Since Hanzal's name has come on the market, he's been my #1 target hope for NYR.

More realistically? I do see Sather going after a "cheaper" rental like Santo, Stafford, or (barf) Chris Stewart.

What the Rangers really need to do is find a way to bring in Hanzal, Bergenheim, and Methot. Ship Glass to Cuba with Netflix, and make a run to the cup

 

[Trxjw]

More realistically? I do see Sather going after a "cheaper" rental like Santo, Stafford, or (barf) Chris Stewart.

I think Stewart is a better player than Stafford, and a significantly better one when they're at their best.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

I'd rather carry 7 dmen into a game then play glass... If he's in our lineup in the playoffs we have no chance... Should've resigned carcillo

 

[TheTakedown]

praying that Sather pulls a Bergevin and trades Glass because he sees him as a detriment to a team who's coach sees things no other sees

 

[Off Sides]

Defensively Boyle has been better than what I thought he could be, offensively on the PP he helps as he is at least decisive. Offensively 5 on 5 he has 4 points and I am under the impression his last goal was fluky and before that I can not say I remember.

I think realistically what I would do probably has nothing to do with what they will end up doing, not that there is anything wrong with that. I just get nervous for the Rangers around the trade deadline and during free agency because it's when they make some of their most risky, head scratching moves.

 

[rangers1314]

Should've resigned carcillo

Would have taken Steve Downie over them both.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

You're too hard on Boyle. His 5v5 play has actually been pretty stellar, and he's a serious influence on the power play. I think Boyle was a great signing, and is actually playing better than I thought he would. His GA/60 at even strength (via War-On-Ice, it is 1.1. I do believe they are missing stats for Sunday's game. This is significant because Boyle was on the ice for 2 GA at even strength) is among the best in the league for defensemen. For comparison, Stralmna's GA/60 5v5 is 2.6. In an effort to be fair, Stralman gets -2.8% relative o-zone starts (still 54.1% o-zone), while Boyle receives +19.2% relative o-zone starts (62.7% o-zone) -- which ABSOLUTELY plays a factor in Boyle's incredibly low GA/60 at 5v5.

But you make good points, for sure. Hopefully the can get to Hank's re-evaluation before the trade deadline, which I believe they will, and they'll know more then.

If Sather is thinking like you, he may make a bigger push for a guy like Hanzal, who is signed cheaply for two more seasons beyond this one for what he brings to the table. It pushes Hayes to the wing, and alleviates the loss of Hagelin or Zuccarello this off-season, assuming a guy like Hags doesn't get shipped for Hanzal...

With a move for Hanzal, it's a move for the now and the future. So, if heaven forbid, Hank can't seem to come back to full form this year, or McD and G don't pick it up, or MSL stays relatively quiet 5v5, we still have Hanzal moving forward. Whereas, to your credit in your post, a guy like Vermette won't be re-signed here after this season.

Since Hanzal's name has come on the market, he's been my #1 target hope for NYR.

More realistically? I do see Sather going after a "cheaper" rental like Santo, Stafford, or (barf) Chris Stewart.

What the Rangers really need to do is find a way to bring in Hanzal, Bergenheim, and Methot. Ship Glass to Cuba with Netflix, and make a run to the cup

The bolded is the definition of a pipe dream. No GM will consider touching Glass or his cap with a 10ft pole. 2 top-9 forwards and a top-4 defenseman will not fit under the cap and will cost top-tier prospects and 1st/2nd rounders which we cannot afford.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I am definitely a fan of Santorelli on the cheap (3rd). But Miller would be horrific.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Stewart is a very streaky scorer but when he's hot, he's red hot. He provides no defensive component to the game and will not help with faceoffs as he cannot play center. The only other dimension to his game is physicality, he will hit you hard on the forecheck and fight.

He's not the guy for this team though.

 

[Roo Returns]

It's time to think outside the box. We hear names like Vermette, Hanzal, Santorelli.

What about Winnik? He'd be much cheaper. Help solve the fourth line problem.

Players on teams like Carolina, Ottawa.

I know Colin Greening is in the minors, but what about a swap of him and Glass?

LA may be willing to retool in a few weeks.

Vancouver? Would they be willing to deal Vey for John Moore? A deal worked around Hagelin who I don't want to trade?

Brad Richardson?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Hanzal pros:
Strong on face-offs
2-way centerman
Puts up 30-40 points per season
Is good defensively

Hanzal cons:
Injury prone
Will cost at least 1 roster player to acquire

His injury concerns might lower the price a bit, but with a 3.1m caphit through 2016-2017 (2+ years) he is a bargain when it comes to fitting him in under the cap. He might be the best option going forward. Hayes can move to the wing and when Dom Moore retires in 2 years, we can re-evaluate and check to see if Hayes is ready for a full season at center.

Here's my Moneyball approach of looking at the acquisition of Hanzal. A center-core of Stepan-Brassard-Hanzal-Moore is great. They are on pace for 75, 65, 53 and 23 points respectively, 216 average over 82 games. Looking at the last 5 Stanley Cup winners, they had the following centers, with points over 82 games, in brackets:

2014 Kings had Kopitar (70), Carter (57), Toffoli (38), and Richards (41)
2013 Blackhawks had Toews (83), Shaw (25), Bolland (33), and Kruger (23)
2012 Kings had Kopitar (76), Richards (49), Stoll (22), and Fraser (10)
2011 Bruins had Krejci (68), Bergeron (58), Campbell (30), and Seguin (24)
2010 Blackhawks had Toews (73), Madden (24), Fraser (22), and Bolland (34)

Their totals, based on 82 games for centers was:

206 in 2014
164 in 2013
157 in 2012
180 in 2011
153 in 2010

Funny how the Kings are the only team to come close to the projected points our center depth will have based on the stats. If we add a guy like Hanzal, we will have a very strong core at center, even when you calculate his injuries into the mix. We can shift Hayes to center for the 10-15 games he misses. But, will that even be an issue? A change of scenery can make a difference. Brassard missed 5 to 10 games a season in Columbus due to injuries, but he played 81 games last season and only missed 2 this season with the mumps. We need to get Hanzal and if we give up a guy like McIlrath or Zuccarello in the process, it will hurt, but we have to look at the bigger picture. Zucc is on pace for 49-50 points over 82 games. I love Zucc as a player, but I don't think he will sign for less than 4.5m this summer and we simply cannot afford him if we want to re-sign Miller, Stepan, Hagelin, Fast and Lindberg (assuming he will make the team next year).

If we get rid of Zuccarello, I do want to get a guy like Bergenheim to get some extra experience for our bottom 6. To get him, we have to hope Florida gives up on their play-off hopes. He should not be that expensive to acquire.

Our lineup for this season after the trade deadline would look a bit like this:

Kreider-Stepan-St. Louis
Nash-Brassard-Hayes
Hagelin-Hanzal-Miller
Bergenheim-Moore-Fast
Stempniak, Glass

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Klein
Methot-Boyle
Hunwick

Next season, it could look a bit like this:

Kreider-Stepan-St. Louis
Nash-Brassard-Hayes
Hagelin-Hanzal-Duclair
Miller-Moore-Fast
Lindberg, Glass

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Klein
Skjei-Boyle
Hunwick

 

[haveandare]

Miller for Santarelli is hilariously unrealistic. I can't believe Brooks has a job sometimes when he writes stuff like that.

 

[silverfish]

Hanzal pros:
Strong on face-offs
2-way centerman
Puts up 30-40 points per season
Is good defensively

Hanzal cons:
Injury prone
Will cost at least 1 roster player to acquire.....

Great post. Didn't want to clog up the thread by quoting the whole thing.

My only thought... What else are we giving up besides Zuccarello to get Hanzal? Because, I don't think Arizona gives up Hanzal for a rental Zuccarello who will more than likely bolt at the end of the season. Then, when you think about that, adding to Zuccarello kind of rips us off in the trade value wise, even considering how much Hanzal will help this team.

Caveat...

Hagelin + Miller + Prospect to Arizona for Hanzal + Korpikoski. As much as I like Bergenheim, Korpedo makes him redundant here. On top of that, Hanzal and Korp are signed beyond this season (as you mentioned with Hanzal).

Nash - Stepan - MSL
Kreider - Brass - Zucc
Hayes - Hanzal - Stempniak
Korpedo - Moore - Fast

Current D

Something along those lines is a process I could get behind.

Next season, we can bring in another cheap vet, move Korpikoski for a late pick in hopes a kid like Hrivik or Lindberg can plug in on a cheap deal on that fourth line, and we can hopefully plug in Stempniak's spot in the lineup with Duke, Buchnevich, etc...

Off the top of my head, with that lineup, we shouldn't have an issue signing both MSL and Zucc for next season.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I was thinking something along the lines of:

Zuccarello+McIlrath+4th
for
Hanzal

We can trade John Moore for Marc Methot

A prospect+5th for Bergenheim

Or...
Zuccarello+McIlrath+2nd
for
Hanzal and Korpikoski

And dont go after Bergenheim