Salary Cap: 2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster Building / Proposal Thread Part XIII

[Paulie Walnutz]

Not really. They're very different players and adding both Hanzal and Santorelli to the bottom-six would be a very big boost to the roster. Santorelli is an upgrade over anyone on the wings save for Hagelin, and Hanzal is a clear upgrade on Moore and Hayes at this point..

Yeah I completely agree and that's what I was trying to get at. I think we're gonna need all the secondary scoring we can get because it seems like it's just Nash.....and then everyone else when it comes to being consistent scoring threats.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I love Santorelli lol, but there's no chance I would give up Miller for him. Only Hanzal is worth JT of the rumored trade pieces.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

My point was that Hanzal is considerably better at this point. As much as I like Hayes at center, having him on the RW with Hanzal wouldn't be a bad thing.

On the 3rd line, yes. Hanzal is my 1st choice for the 3rd line. If we can get him without giving up Hagelin, we can have the HaHaHa line...

 

[Trxjw]

I think the only way Miller and Santorelli are involved in a trade is if the Rangers are getting another piece back as well. However, the Leafs don't exactly have a lot of enticing pieces they could add.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Hanzal can't stay healthy. He hasn't played more than 65 games in 5 years.

If we can get him for cheap, great, but that won't be the case.

 

[bernmeister]

....
And finally, while we are all speculating here, please stop the crap about Brassard getting traded and why it makes sense. It makes no sense whatsoever. None.

For crying out loud stop trading Brassard. His salary is not an issue. At his current production his salary is very good. Also the higher the cap goes the more of a bargain he is.

Jets aren't trading Schiefele. It's a pipe dream.

Trading Brassard for the right guy DOES make sense like it or not.

You guys are entitled to your opinion. That said, you choose to ignore the reality of what I said earlier:

1. Why trade Brassard?
Because in July he will also have a NM/NTC which will facilitate the roster controlling us, not our controlling the roster. In a vacuum his 5m is not a problem, but in the reality of existing NYR salaries + needs to extend going forward, etc., it IS a problem.

This is not abstract; this is real.
It makes a lot of sense to move him/Girardi.
It makes even more sense if, despite the cost of a premium blue chip or two, Brass can be morphed into an upgrade who is not only bigger while possessing a similar skill set (old sports adage that the good big man beats the good little man), but that the same acquisition is cheaper!

As to the

Jets aren't trading Schiefele

I would agree that is more the rule.
However, there could be an exception to this rule if yielding on Schiefle for Brassard would benefit them otherwise.

Demands by Winni may/may not be higher, but feel something around this works; obviously, getting Kane off their payroll yesterday would be a big help.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Bern,

Lets just put aside the fact you want to trade away a 40+ point center, signed for 4 more years to a cap-friendly deal, 2 talented guys who just played in the JWC final and were among the star performers at the tournament...

Trades which include 10 players are bad for both teams. It ruins the chemistry. Not just that, the main reason why teams don't trade away their top6 players, is because there is no guarantee the new acquisition will fit in and perform.

 

[bernmeister]

I think the only way Miller and Santorelli are involved in a trade is if the Rangers are getting another piece back as well. However, the Leafs don't exactly have a lot of enticing pieces they could add.

Miller should not be moved.

Girardi + NYR 2015 2nd
for
Santorelli + Gardiner + TML 2015 3rd

something like that.

ends the nightmare of Girardi at 5.5 and NMC for assets that can be traded after use.

Then Hagelin + Gardiner + TML 2015 3rd for Hanzal + 'yotes 2nd


Need to keep big body of Hayes at C, no shift to W.

Kreider-Hayes-Hanzal Hanzal takes FOs
Moore - Stepan - Nash Moore takes FOs
Santorelli - Brassard - Zuc Santorelli takes FOs
MSL Miller Fast

after ditching Glass, improved Dylan is our enforcer
McD-Klein
Staal-Boyle, backed up by Allen
Allen - McIlrath

 

[Idlerlee]

Trading Brassard simply because he will have a NMC/NTC after putting up his best season to date, sets a presedence for other players that request similiar terms: The club will not show loyalty. In essence it makes these types of contracts worthless for players who sign contracts with a NMT/NTC as a term. Not a great bargaining chip

Brassards contract isnt a problem because Brassard is performing.

Bern, you've spoken both about not letting contracts control the club, and salaries control the club. At any point the team has the option of trading players during the trade window to alleviate just this type of situation. The contracts will never "control" the club as you so fear, it only dictates the squad you can have in any given trade window.

You simply dont trade away integral pieces to a stanley cup contending team that is in "win now" mode. You genuinely just dont

 

[Idlerlee]

Miller should not be moved.

Girardi + NYR 2015 2nd
for
Santorelli + Gardiner + TML 2015 3rd

something like that.

ends the nightmare of Girardi at 5.5 and NMC for assets that can be traded after use.

Then Hagelin + Gardiner + TML 2015 3rd for Hanzal + 'yotes 2nd


Need to keep big body of Hayes at C, no shift to W.

Kreider-Hayes-Hanzal Hanzal takes FOs
Moore - Stepan - Nash Moore takes FOs
Santorelli - Brassard - Zuc Santorelli takes FOs
MSL Miller Fast

after ditching Glass, improved Dylan is our enforcer
McD-Klein
Staal-Boyle, backed up by Allen
Allen - McIlrath

This team will have a genuinely hard time reaching the playoffs

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Miller should not be moved.

Girardi + NYR 2015 2nd
for
Santorelli + Gardiner + TML 2015 3rd

something like that.

ends the nightmare of Girardi at 5.5 and NMC for assets that can be traded after use.

Then Hagelin + Gardiner + TML 2015 3rd for Hanzal + 'yotes 2nd


Need to keep big body of Hayes at C, no shift to W.

Kreider-Hayes-Hanzal Hanzal takes FOs
Moore - Stepan - Nash Moore takes FOs
Santorelli - Brassard - Zuc Santorelli takes FOs
MSL Miller Fast

after ditching Glass, improved Dylan is our enforcer
McD-Klein
Staal-Boyle, backed up by Allen
Allen - McIlrath

Yeah... Sorry, bit I am not giving up Girardi + Hagelin + 2nd round pick for Hanzal and a rental in Santorelli.

 

[bernmeister]

Bern,

Lets just put aside the fact you want to trade away a 40+ point center, signed for 4 more years to a cap-friendly deal, 2 talented guys who just played in the JWC final and were among the star performers at the tournament...

Trades which include 10 players are bad for both teams. It ruins the chemistry. Not just that, the main reason why teams don't trade away their top6 players, is because there is no guarantee the new acquisition will fit in and perform.

Amaze,
you fairly point out all the downside, actual or imagined.
I don't mind this, except you do it in a vacuum.

But what about the upside?
upgrading Brass into Schief on a better contract AND getting Wheeler and Kane (regardless of what this turns out to actually be, even if he is flipped) is worth the price paid, including the Brassard+Girardi contracts.

As to Jets, sure if some sucker would overpay to take EKane as is, yeah, they'd love it, but like I postulated earlier somewhere, to get real value, they are going to have to make a package deal.

It's a fair ? you have to play the skeptic and be devil's advocate as to IF mine is the best package.

But while it is a heavy price I have extracted from Jets, they have gained from us as well.

So let me know when you want to consider all sides of the question.

 

[Leetch66]

I could see a 3rd + a player the Leafs like from the 2nd tier of the Rangers prospect pool for Santorelli. If not that a 2nd. No JT.

For the last time, the Coyotes won't make a sideways trade for Hanzal. No Hagelin. No Zuccarello. If they make a deal it will be to get younger (Hanzal is 26) and bring back multiple assets. I still think JT + 2nd + a defenseman could get it done. And I would make that trade in a heartbeat.

Not sure if Tikinov is still considered Coyote property but I would definitely consider him as a future. He was very responsible defensively here and showed some offensive flashes.

Bob....I think it reads he is Yote property until July1st . Looks like Tik is doing OK in Russia and might be worth having a look at in a deal if the price is right.... http://lnk.splashurl.com/1vGr Actually he is a UFA on July1 .

 

[Esa 10]

Kreider is due a new contract. He might have a NTC in a couple of years. We can't allow this inconsistent player to control our future roster decisions. Let's move him for a 1st rounder in 2018 while he still has value.

 

[bernmeister]

...

Trading Brassard simply because he will have a NMC/NTC after putting up his best season to date, sets a presedence for other players that request similiar terms: The club will not show loyalty. In essence it makes these types of contracts worthless for players who sign contracts with a NMT/NTC as a term. Not a great bargaining chip

Brassards contract isnt a problem because Brassard is performing.

It sets a precedence on 2 counts: 1 what you describe, and 2, what I'm sayin --- the team comes first; a club cannot allow loyalty to a single player to superimpose over the good of the team.

At some other time, I think it would be good to make a separate thread going forward about NMNTCs. IMO they should not be given out, or at most be the rare exception to the rule. Tooooooo maaaannnnnnnyyyy people want to play here, and I don't begrudge them $$ for their labor, but other aspects of a deal can be a killer.
You should get paid what your services command, approx., +/- slightly due to various factors and then, if traded, we give you a trading bonus. That is a more manageable solution than too many NMNTCs.

Bern, you've spoken both about not letting contracts control the club, and salaries control the club. At any point the team has the option of trading players during the trade window to alleviate just this type of situation. The contracts will never "control" the club as you so fear, it only dictates the squad you can have in any given trade window.

respectfully your statement which I highlighted is in error as to the core of the issue/problem.
Yes,

At any point the team has the option of trading players during the trade window to alleviate just this type of situation

yes, we can trade players, but that does not mean we can trade THE very players that are causing the cap bottleneck.

You simply dont trade away integral pieces to a stanley cup contending team that is in "win now" mode. You genuinely just dont

The ? is not if you gave up integral pieces --- and btw, Brass, Girardi, and Zuc, while all valuable, arguably not more integral than other names I could use --- rather, the ? is what have you wound up with.

Replacing Brass w/Shiefle, even at an expensive cost, could be well worth it.

Indeed in the scenario of that last trade, we would up with Wheeler, on a big line w/Kreider + Hayes, as well.

The ? of whether or not it was too much, or the least that had to be surrendered is one thing, but given the above, I find it hard to argue that "integral pieces" were not replaced with even more valuable ones.

 

[bernmeister]

This team will have a genuinely hard time reaching the playoffs

Why? let's consider:

Kreider-Hayes-Hanzal Hanzal takes FOs
a power line that does more grinding, but has enough scoring touch otherwise + Kreider. Hanzal tutors Hayes and helps w/puck possession.

Moore - Stepan - Nash Moore takes FOs
Similar to above line, except Moore rescues Stepan


Santorelli - Brassard - Zuc Santorelli takes FOs
if these two worked with Poo, why not Santy?

MSL Miller Fast
speed +. Very good for a 4th line.


after ditching Glass, improved Dylan is our enforcer
this is inevitable, let's just do it.

McD-Klein
Staal-Boyle, backed up by Allen
Allen - McIlrath

what's not to like?

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

It sets a precedence on 2 counts: 1 what you describe, and 2, what I'm sayin --- the team comes first; a club cannot allow loyalty to a single player to superimpose over the good of the team.

At some other time, I think it would be good to make a separate thread going forward about NMNTCs. IMO they should not be given out, or at most be the rare exception to the rule. Tooooooo maaaannnnnnnyyyy people want to play here, and I don't begrudge them $$ for their labor, but other aspects of a deal can be a killer.
You should get paid what your services command, approx., +/- slightly due to various factors and then, if traded, we give you a trading bonus. That is a more manageable solution than too many NMNTCs.




respectfully your statement which I highlighted is in error as to the core of the issue/problem.
Yes,

yes, we can trade players, but that does not mean we can trade THE very players that are causing the cap bottleneck.



The ? is not if you gave up integral pieces --- and btw, Brass, Girardi, and Zuc, while all valuable, arguably not more integral than other names I could use --- rather, the ? is what have you wound up with.

Replacing Brass w/Shiefle, even at an expensive cost, could be well worth it.

Indeed in the scenario of that last trade, we would up with Wheeler, on a big line w/Kreider + Hayes, as well.

The ? of whether or not it was too much, or the least that had to be surrendered is one thing, but given the above, I find it hard to argue that "integral pieces" were not replaced with even more valuable ones.

I can see the headlines now

DEFENDING EASTERN CONFERENCE CHAMPIONS TRADE HALF OF TEAM TO WINNIPEG JETS

Dont ever change, bern.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Amaze,
you fairly point out all the downside, actual or imagined.
I don't mind this, except you do it in a vacuum.

But what about the upside?
upgrading Brass into Schief on a better contract AND getting Wheeler and Kane (regardless of what this turns out to actually be, even if he is flipped) is worth the price paid, including the Brassard+Girardi contracts.

As to Jets, sure if some sucker would overpay to take EKane as is, yeah, they'd love it, but like I postulated earlier somewhere, to get real value, they are going to have to make a package deal.

It's a fair ? you have to play the skeptic and be devil's advocate as to IF mine is the best package.

But while it is a heavy price I have extracted from Jets, they have gained from us as well.

So let me know when you want to consider all sides of the question.

1. Scheifele has 65 points in 129 games. I know he's only 21, but he needs time to grow. We have a 39 year-old St. Louis, a 38 year-old Dan Boyle and a goalie who is not getting any better than he is now. We don't have time to wait for Scheifele to turn into the player Brass is. Brassard puts up more points, is better on the PP and his contract is not an issue.
   
2. Blake Wheeler is a great player. No argument there, but adding Kane is a gamble. Oh, and please stop the whole idea of trading for asset A and then flipping that the next day for asset B. That is just stupid. Players always have more value to their current team than they have to potential new teams. When you trade for a guy like Kane, you will never get the same amount for him than Winnipeg got from us.
   
3. Dan Girardi is a top pairing D-man who makes 5.5 million a year. He is not the problem. If we trade him, it should be for a package to get a better D-man. His minutes cannot be accounted for when you add Allen or McIlrath. Girardi is valuable because he plays so many minutes and can be counted on. Believe me, he is a guy that would be a top D-man on 29 of 30 teams in the NHL.

Why would we trade for yet another 2nd round pick? We do not need another pick in the 2nd round. If you want to make this team stronger, make trades for guys who fill the holes. The holes we have now are:

1. A face-off winning center (i.e. Martin Hanzal, Kyle Brodziak, Michael Santorelli, Antoine Vermette)
2. Bottom-6 guy with play-off experience (i.e. Sean Bergenheim, Daniel Briere, Max Talbot, Shawn Horcoff)
3. A 3rd pairing D-man (i.e. Marc Methot, Andrej Sekera, Jan Hejda, Robyn Regehr, Jordan Leopold)

These are all pending UFAs, with the exeption of Hanzal, who I added since his name has been mentioned several times).

The reason why your additions (sans Hanzal) are not what we are looking for?

• Scheifele has a face-off percentage of 43,1. He would make our face-offs worse, not better. His stats right now, are just not better than Brassard's. Brassard is our 2nd-best center when it comes to face-offs! Please do not make our issues worse. Trading is about improving.
• Wheeler and Kane are not going to play bottom-six minutes and I am not demoting Kreider, Nash, Zuccarello or St. Louis to our 3rd line.
• Allen and McIlrath are unproven at NHL level. We cannot rely on them in the play-offs. We need experience if we want to get anywhere.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

Bernmeister '16!

 

[RangerBoy]

The New York Rangers feel they have a pretty good handle on Henrik Lundqvist's situation, but to be safe, word is the Blueshirts are canvassing the market to see if there’s a fit to bring in an experienced goalie to back up Cam Talbot.

Right now the backup is 20-year-old Mackenzie Skapski, and I think the Rangers would like a little more insurance behind Talbot while Lundqvist is out.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/...gers-looking-for-goalie-to-back-up-cam-talbot

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Please just sign a FA like Vokoun, or trade for a rental (Dubnyk). Don't want to waste assets on a goalie who will just sit on the bench and maybe play 2 games.

 

[Esa 10]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/...gers-looking-for-goalie-to-back-up-cam-talbot

Viktor Fasth.

 

[howztheglass]

I think the only way Miller and Santorelli are involved in a trade is if the Rangers are getting another piece back as well. However, the Leafs don't exactly have a lot of enticing pieces they could add.

I have to agree so the crazy thoughts enter my head--anyone think this might work one stop shopping with the Leafs:

Leafs trade
Nazem Kadri whom they been looking to trade for awhile--2.9 RFA after this year.
Mike Santorelli Rangers are try to acquire 1.5 UFA after this year.
Morgan Rielly offensive Dman the Rangers are looking for .900 for 2 years then RFA.
For
C Hagelin 2.250 RFA after this year so he's controllable for the Leafs
J T Miller .900 RFA again controllable
D McIlrath .700 next 2 years controllable
J Moore .850 RFA controllable
Possible 4th round pick

Pro's Rangers get a third line center whom can play 2 line minutes--Santorelli provides toughness and can win draws--Rielly offensive Dman.

Leafs get younger and hold all the cards in signing each guys because their all RFA so it's not like they will be losing anyone whom they want at a controllable price.
Plus the Leafs are at that point of making a move just to make a move.

Cons most likely not happening--just dreaming craziness.

 

[TheTakedown]

Jason labarbara!!!

 

[bobbop]

JOrts award nominee at work here