Salary Cap: 2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster Building / Proposal Thread Part XIII

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Putting Hanzal and Miller on the same plain as "potential for potential" is so out there and homerish, I don't really know where to begin.

Must we really do this every year?

 

[silverfish]

How so? Clowe put up over 50 points 3 times. Over 60 one time. OVer 40 4x, before coming to the Rangers.

Hanzal hasn't put up over 40 once.

And, if there is one harrowing and incredibly frightening thing I'm noticing as I'm looking for these comparables, those who are predisposed to injuries seem to be falling off a cliff after the age of 30. More significant and significant injuries.

And what was he doing the year the Rangers traded for him? Everyone knew he was done.

Why are we ignoring that?

HE HAD 0 GOALS IN AN INJURY RIDDLED 28 GAME SEASON at the deadline.

Why are we ignoring that? I don't understand.

 

[Trxjw]

How so?

And I understand, Hanzal will take a trade for prospects. Potential for potential. But I don't think that the Rangers giving up one of their most developed prospects who is on the verge of breaking through will happen.

I do think that McILrath + a 2nd will happen.

Hanzal is an established piece. Potential for injury isn't the same thing as potential to someday amount to being an NHL player.

Hanzal will go for a much, much better package than what you're guessing at. Also, he has two more years remaining on his deal. You incorrectly stated previously that it was just one.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Signed through 2016-17. He has 2 more years after this season, at a 3.1m cap hit

You are correct. I skimmed through nhlnumbers rather quickly. Must have seen the FA status of someone next to Hanzal - although I now see that it is Boedker?

My mistake.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Must we really do this every year?

We must, especially after you insisted for weeks the Rangers would get MSL for a song and a dance. You often fail to recognize there are other people at the end of these negotiations who do not have the Rangers' best interests in mind.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

We must, especially after you insisted for weeks the Rangers would get MSL for a song and a dance. You often fail to recognize there are other people at the end of these negotiations who do not have the Rangers' best interests in mind.

I grossly over valued Ryan Callahan's value. I will be the first to admit that.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I grossly over valued Ryan Callahan's value. I will be the first to admit that.

Pending UFA who made no secret his desire to be grossly overpaid. Who woulda thunk it?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

You are correct. I skimmed through nhlnumbers rather quickly. Must have seen the FA status of someone next to Hanzal - although I now see that it is Boedker?

My mistake.

I think you mean Gagner, because Boedker is RFA this summer. I'll stop now haha

 

[Raspewtin]

There's really very few situations where you can truly blame a loss on one player. This game wasn't one of them re: Talbot. He wasn't good, but we had a chance to win.

 

[Guyute]

If Arizona decided to trade Hanzal, I bet we could get him for JT Miller, John Moore, and a pick. But then we would have to spend more assets on another defenseman.

Is Hanzal even available? I haven't seen anyone reputable say he is. I know Zipay was speculating about him, but Zipay is clueless. I also saw that Edmonton note from over the weekend but that was speculation as well. So far, nothing definitive.

 

[KOVALEV022473]

If Arizona decided to trade Hanzal, I bet we could get him for JT Miller, John Moore, and a pick. But then we would have to spend more assets on another defenseman.

Is Hanzal even available? I haven't seen anyone reputable say he is. I know Zipay was speculating about him, but Zipay is clueless. I also saw that Edmonton note from over the weekend but that was speculation as well. So far, nothing definitive.

It's all speculation, until it happens.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Really don't want to get rid of Miller. I don't care if we have other prospects coming in Duke and Buch, Miller is finally starting to get it. He's vastly improved over last season and should be a regular in the lineup.

 

[bernmeister]

...

1. Why trade Brassard?
2. Girardi has a NMC
3. No way Hayes plays 4th line minutes next season
4. No way Klein plays on the 1st pairing, ever
5. Trading away Buchnevich and Duclair? Why?
6. A trade including 10 players? I am not even sure that's possible in NHL 15

You chose not to extract answers to these from my post, despite my pains to be comprehensive. Nonetheless, I thank you for constructive comments in reply. See my post for more detail.

As to succinct answers to the above:

1. Why trade Brassard?
Because in July he will also have a NM/NTC which will facilitate the roster controlling us, not our controlling the roster. In a vacuum his 5m is not a problem, but in the reality of existing NYR salaries + needs to extend going forward, etc., it IS a problem.

2. Girardi has a NMC
Yes he does.
However, as I pointed out, real chance Girardi sees that his edge is only temporary, and that in about 2 years HE WILL THEN HAVE ZERO LEVERAGE. So today he can force Slats to keep him OR he can accept a transfer to a good place.
I believe there are only a handful of such places he would choose, but...
... Toronto is reliving his youth
... Detroit would also be a competing class franchise a little closer to home, with need for RD
and the Jets would be similar, not only in general location but fielding a competitive team in the west, esp, if they get to rebuild with Duke + Buch + other pieces.

3. No way Hayes plays 4th line minutes next season
I continue to have this broken down by the synergy of the lines. I think I had the power line of Kreider - Hayes - Wheeler listed first, actually.

4. No way Klein plays on the 1st pairing, ever
Klein is our best RD atm, and is cost controlled.
He deserves that and should be there now anyway.
Skates better than Girardi or Boyle, so least holding McDonagh back

5. Trading away Buchnevich and Duclair? Why?
Schiefle and Wheeler.
This is a package deal.
Kane will be a distraction til he is moved and only special incentive would prompt a team to take him now, and have his salary count toward this year (LTIR notwitstanding). NYR says fine, but the cost of doing that is flipping Brassard + for Schiefle, who is somewhat similar but bigger, has more upside, and is more cost controlled. Duclair for Wheeler could have been avoided, it helped make the cap work. Wheeler is a good now guy, but not so old he is a problem anytime soon; plus, he will remain good value as a stable cost controlled asset for another 4 years or so.
What is the up side of Buch? Of Duke? Are we particularly screwed to use one to pay to get us an upgrade at C? Hayes at 6'5" is our biggest C, but Schiefle (6'3 or 6'4 is a big help) and Miller 6'1 but plays a bit bigger helps a bit. So I say no.

We basically traded up and it all balanced out except we had EKane left over.
We did something important structurally with the cap (which Jets have space for).

EKane may/not work out, but even if we flip him and his 4.8 or so salary for another 4 ish years, even cutting part of that to the Jets as future considerations, that is still a profit for us.

And if he comes back better than ever, more mature with something to prove, we are even better having gotten him reasonably.

6. A trade including 10 players? I am not even sure that's possible in NHL 15
As proffered early on, survives plausibility because it can be broken into 2-3 smaller deals.

 

[Kovalev27]

Hanzal is the only guy Id give miller up for

i think this is the move

 

[bernmeister]

Hanzal is the only guy Id give miller up for

i think this is the move

Be steady, freddy.

I'm sure we can give Don Molo extra of other currency and overpay in that way, while still retaining Miller and a coupla others.

 

[bobbop]

Hanzal's value comes in his defense, penalty killing face off prowess and intangibles. He is a warrior and has been a very good player on some middling Coyote teams. Oh and he is relatively young (26) and has two years left on a very friendly team contract.

Forget about scoring, Hanzal fills in the blanks that this team needs.

IF (capital letters) the Coyotes decide to trade Hanzal they will want multiple younger assets. This is not a fire sale. Trading for Hanzal would have to be a real hockey trade -- value for value. Hanzal fills the Rangers needs and in return, you have to fill the Coyotes needs. Given his age and coming RFA status, Hagelin is a sideways trade. Miller, whom I like a lot, is almost certain to front any package. Add a 2nd and a young defenseman and you may have common ground. It's an interesting question with a lot of ramifications but the Rangers are a win now team and it will definitely make the Blueshirts a better team for the rest of this year.

And if the Rangers don't get Hanzal, then perhaps there is another similar player out there who they might be targeting. Again, think hockey trade, not playoff rental.

Sather won't pay a ridiculous price to rent Vermette. Some else may.

And finally, while we are all speculating here, please stop the crap about Brassard getting traded and why it makes sense. It makes no sense whatsoever. None.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Well, if not Hanzal, these are guys I would be very interested in:

Andrew Cogliano (Anaheim)
Mathieu Perreault (Winnipeg)
Jiri Hudler (Calgary)
Alex Kilhorn (Tampa)

I am pretty sure neither will be available. So, Hanzal should be the no. 1 target to help our 3rd line.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Hanzal is the only guy Id give miller up for

i think this is the move

I agree. Vermette does little for me. He'd be a redundant piece.

It'd take more than Miller, however, to get Hanzal.

 

[Tawnos]

How can Hanzal not be redundant but Vermette is? The only thing that Hanzal brings that Vermette doesn't is a ton of size. And it's not like Vermette is undersized.

The big difference is cost. Hanzal requires a signifant roster structure change. Losing a winger for a stronger center group. Vermette would mean keeping the same basic team we have.

So it depends on what your philosophy is.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

That might be true, but Vermette won't sign for 3.1m, which is Hanzal's caphit for the next 2+ years.

 

[Tawnos]

That might be true, but Vermette won't sign for 3.1m, which is Hanzal's caphit for the next 2+ years.

Which is why I said we can keep the team basically the same acquiring Vermette. That's not just this year. That's next year too. Vermette would be gone but the overall roster structure is the same.

The question is whether or not you want to pay less for hopefully a few months of one player and keep intact the group you have or whether or not you want to pay more to shift some of your wing strength into the middle.

This is a philosophical debate. If the players are even available and their exact costs are somewhat beside the point.

 

[darko]

You chose not to extract answers to these from my post, despite my pains to be comprehensive. Nonetheless, I thank you for constructive comments in reply. See my post for more detail.

As to succinct answers to the above:

1. Why trade Brassard?
Because in July he will also have a NM/NTC which will facilitate the roster controlling us, not our controlling the roster. In a vacuum his 5m is not a problem, but in the reality of existing NYR salaries + needs to extend going forward, etc., it IS a problem.

2. Girardi has a NMC
Yes he does.
However, as I pointed out, real chance Girardi sees that his edge is only temporary, and that in about 2 years HE WILL THEN HAVE ZERO LEVERAGE. So today he can force Slats to keep him OR he can accept a transfer to a good place.
I believe there are only a handful of such places he would choose, but...
... Toronto is reliving his youth
... Detroit would also be a competing class franchise a little closer to home, with need for RD
and the Jets would be similar, not only in general location but fielding a competitive team in the west, esp, if they get to rebuild with Duke + Buch + other pieces.

3. No way Hayes plays 4th line minutes next season
I continue to have this broken down by the synergy of the lines. I think I had the power line of Kreider - Hayes - Wheeler listed first, actually.

4. No way Klein plays on the 1st pairing, ever
Klein is our best RD atm, and is cost controlled.
He deserves that and should be there now anyway.
Skates better than Girardi or Boyle, so least holding McDonagh back

5. Trading away Buchnevich and Duclair? Why?
Schiefle and Wheeler.
This is a package deal.
Kane will be a distraction til he is moved and only special incentive would prompt a team to take him now, and have his salary count toward this year (LTIR notwitstanding). NYR says fine, but the cost of doing that is flipping Brassard + for Schiefle, who is somewhat similar but bigger, has more upside, and is more cost controlled. Duclair for Wheeler could have been avoided, it helped make the cap work. Wheeler is a good now guy, but not so old he is a problem anytime soon; plus, he will remain good value as a stable cost controlled asset for another 4 years or so.
What is the up side of Buch? Of Duke? Are we particularly screwed to use one to pay to get us an upgrade at C? Hayes at 6'5" is our biggest C, but Schiefle (6'3 or 6'4 is a big help) and Miller 6'1 but plays a bit bigger helps a bit. So I say no.

We basically traded up and it all balanced out except we had EKane left over.
We did something important structurally with the cap (which Jets have space for).

EKane may/not work out, but even if we flip him and his 4.8 or so salary for another 4 ish years, even cutting part of that to the Jets as future considerations, that is still a profit for us.

And if he comes back better than ever, more mature with something to prove, we are even better having gotten him reasonably.

6. A trade including 10 players? I am not even sure that's possible in NHL 15
As proffered early on, survives plausibility because it can be broken into 2-3 smaller deals.

For crying out loud stop trading Brassard. His salary is not an issue. At his current production his salary is very good. Also the higher the cap goes the more of a bargain he is.

Jets aren't trading Schiefele. It's a pipe dream.

 

[darko]

Be steady, freddy.

I'm sure we can give Don Molo extra of other currency and overpay in that way, while still retaining Miller and a coupla others.

Crap plus crap does not equal value. Hanzal wont be cheap. If you want Hanzal then one of Miller or Duke goes the other way.

 

[NYR Viper]

Which is why I said we can keep the team basically the same acquiring Vermette. That's not just this year. That's next year too. Vermette would be gone but the overall roster structure is the same.

The question is whether or not you want to pay less for hopefully a few months of one player and keep intact the group you have or whether or not you want to pay more to shift some of your wing strength into the middle.

This is a philosophical debate. If the players are even available and their exact costs are somewhat beside the point.

Philosophically I choose a VERY good center group over a VERY good wing group. I have also stated in the past that I think wing is a position of strength in the pipeline and most young centers can learn the NHL game on the wing before eventually transitioning to center anyways.

Hanzal for me would be the top priority. Size. Defensive acumen. Still young. Solid cap hit. Provides some offense. Very good on face offs.

He checks almost every need for this team right now and for the next couple of years with the way they're built.

 

[NYR Viper]

Maloney is on record as saying he wants to become more difficult to play against in his own zone. Yandle will be moved. Gormley is on the way. OEL. McIlrath would be a unique piece for a team like Phoenix. Playing in the West would suit his playing style to a 't' as well and he is a RD which is harder to find in today's NHL.

I'd hate to move him but if that's the main piece that helps bring in Hanzal, it's a move that needs to be made.

People keep mentioning Miller. I'm not sure the organization sees him as a moveable piece. Remember they moved Dubinsky and Anisimov before Kreider. Cap space is an asset. Hagelin is soon going to be paid well. 3.5-3.75 per season pretty easily on any deal with any term. Can the Rangers pay a 3rd line winger on this team that kind of money? With the types of players who are rookies this year and those who seem on the way, I think it would be wiser to invest in either a true puck mover or a big bodied center.