Ezpz
No mad pls
- Apr 16, 2013
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2014-2015 CHL/NCAA/Euro Prospects thread 6.0
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Well I'm predicting that Pateryn will be traded next year to have a "fresh" start. We will probably know by now that guys like Dietz and Ellis are just AHL'ers. Nygren will also probaby traded. Bennett might be a callup. Didier will be in the ECHL. And at one point, Koberstein might never see the light of a pro game.
Lernout has a chance.
You can't really look at it this way. Tons of things can happen, from not making it to trades to whatever.
Are you writing Dietz off already? I thought he looked pretty good in the preseason games as a 20 year old out of junior. And he was great in junior.
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
- Jan 5, 2003
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Not writing off anybody. Just saying that scenarios like that can happen. And that you don't pick or not pick guys because there "seems" to have too many guys in front of you. 'Cause other scenarios could implicate that you deal d-men for forwards etc.
I like most of our d-men we have in Hamilton and beyond. But it's pretty fair to think that they won't all make it. And that a guy like Pateryn who's surely looks to most ready outside of Tinordi and Beaulieu, might not be able to still have a spot in the NHL tells a lot about the work that the other d-men have to do. I think that both Dietz and Ellis can make it. But wouldn't surprise me if they don't as well. Guys with just as good comparable junior careers also didn't make it.
Just realized Reway was born in Praha, CZE. Playing for HC Sparta Praha makes so much more sense now over KHL Slovakian team. 
montreal
Go Habs Go
I wouldn't look at it that way since who's to say what trades will be made over time. But each D prospect is at different stages of development so better to look at where each stands in that regard.
Pateryn - In the late stage of his development, has 1 more year in the AHL before waivers is an issue, 2nd year of his contract is one way so management must think he has a future with us.
Dietz - In the middle stages of his development, has 2 more years in the AHL before waivers is an issue. Injuries set him back a bit so we'll need to see how he responds next season to get a feel for how far away he is.
Thrower - As a 19 year old he's about to move up to the middle stage of his development, going to be very interesting to see how he adjusts to the pro game next season. Has 3 seasons in the AHL before waivers so he's got a good bit of time yet.
Bennett - I'm most interested in seeing how Bennett handles the jump from the NCAA to the AHL, have been a big fan of his mobility and smarts. PMD's are always good to have as well so hopefully he has a smooth transition. He will have 3 seasons before waivers so he'll have a few years to show what he can do.
Ellis - It's been slow going for Ellis as he enters the final stage of his development. He has another season to show something before waivers or risk being passed by.
Nygren - Tough one to figure out what the Habs will do, he's under contract but if he doesn't make the team then it sounds like the Habs will move him instead of letting him return to the SHL. Personally I would loan him back vs moving him for little as it will cost a spot on the 50 contract limit but then his contract is up and they could give him a QO which would retain his rights for several years. If at any point they feel he's improved they can bring him to camp. But from comments from management about all players going through Hamilton I could see him getting cut lose.
Didier - Habs have some time with him since he has 1 more year in the NCAA before turning pro, then he'll have 3 years in Hamilton before waivers will be an issue.
Lernout - In the early stage of development, he's a late birth date so he can turn pro after next season. Then 3 years in the AHL so the Habs have some time with him.
Koberstein - If he ends up in the AJHL next season and then goes to the NCAA, the Habs would have 5 years before needing to sign him and then a couple years in the AHL, so he's so far away that several of the guys on this list won't be around by then.
S Bah
Registered User
Just seen that the NJD's signed former *#4 OV in 2011, 21 yrs.old RD Adam Larsson* to a one year two way deal. With the position he's in Albany (AHL) and Magnus Nygren RD 24yrs.old in Sweden, maybe Bergevin could swing a deal for Larsson. At 6'3" & 205 lbs. *Larsson* is a very smooth skating PMD, 1-2 yrs. in Hamilton and he could rebound, seems to have lost his confidence playing in NJ. My thought is he's very talented and with the way N.Beaulieu LD has improved, perhaps the same could be done with Larsson before he's ruined.
Both NJD's and the Habs having a RD with lots of talent, why waste these young Dmen give them both a fresh start. Better than both going back to Sweden IMHO.
Both NJD's and the Habs having a RD with lots of talent, why waste these young Dmen give them both a fresh start. Better than both going back to Sweden IMHO.
S Bah
Registered User
Blind Gardien
nexus of the crisis
Yeah, you don't have to "write off" prospects like Dietz, Thrower, and Ellis to just acknowledge that the odds of them making it were never very high in the first place, and they haven't really done anything yet to suggest different odds apply.
You write them off when the ELC expires if it seems clear at that point that nothing is happening. Until then, there's always hope, howsoever tempered by reality it might be.
Fozz
Registered User
Too early to write off any of those guys. D-men take longer to develop and a good summer of proper training can make a big difference for any of these guys. Besides, if only one of Dietz, Thrower, Ellis or Nygren make it to the NHL full time, it will be more than enough.
According to Brisebois, Dietz really impressed him.
Thrower and Bennett: too soon to judge.
Nygren will be an NHL'r, he is already the best offensive d-men in SHL and was able to perform at every level like a top-2 (AHL, SHL).
His floor is bottom-6 on a contender team.
Pateryn is a different case, he was a defensive D-men in NCAA and revealed much more offense than expected in AHL.
Of the list that was given, Pateryn just turned 24 and MB gave him a one way contract for 2015-16. Nygren also turned 24 in June.
Both could be very NHL ready in 2015.
Just to give you an idea, among all rookies d-men last season, half of them were 22 years old and more.
Another way to look at this is to look at best scorers among rookie d-men.
Krug is 23, Gelinas is 23, DeKeyser in 24, Gudas is 24 and Vatanen is 23.
You can also look at TOI: DeKeyeser (24), DeHaan (23), Czuczman (23), Folin (23), Dumoulin (22), Vatanen (23).
I think TOI is more significant... Because it reflects what the coaches are thinking about those d-men.
Of course half of them were very young but they were almost all top-10 picks: Pysyk (23rd and 22 years old), Lindholm (6th), Trouba (9th), Murray (2nd) and Jones (4th).
My conclusion is that a team like the Habs (or any contender team) will not have d-men who can make it before 22 years old.
For teams like NYI, Buffalo, Nashville, WPG etc. they can pick d-men that are more NHL ready. Even Ana picked Lindholm in 6th spot.
I think it will be more than 2...Bennett and Lernout have tools that should translate well to the NHL. I could see Thrower making it in a Bieksa mold if he can stay healthy.
Ellis is the disappointment in the group. Dietz was only 20 and a rookie and he showed flashes in Hamilton, he has a chance to make a leap in development at 21. Ellis it may be his last chance to earn another contract...
Pompeius Magnus
Registered User
Yeah, 3rd full pro season for him, last year of his contract. He has to show more improvement to his all around game if he hopes to get another contract. Especially since his offensive numbers in the Q never really translated at the next level...
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
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I liked Ellis....but to call him a dissapointment....not too sure he should be. We should have never had that kind of expectation to begin with. And in the end, it might be the same thing with Dietz. Ellis always had to improve his skating and foot speed. Possible that he hasn't done that enough or doesn't have that in him. Dietz in the end, might be a more complete d-man but probably based on his feet agility. We'll see when all is said and done. But my expectations for Ellis has indeed go back to normal for quite some time now. Doesn't mean it won't work out. We do need to be careful with D's.....a lot of those guys pan out later.
S Bah
Registered User
Herein lies a problem for a great number of young prospects that went the CHL route. Prospects that went on to college had very good programs and coaches to help teach players in increasing their footspeed etc. Jamie Oleksiak the 6'7" - 250 lbs RD for Dallas being a good example of players that benefitted from the football coaches at Northeastern when he played there. Their coaches teach linebackers/ tackles of huge size how to increase their footspeed, doing simple exercises. Oleksiak's improved footspeed over the season before his draft, was so good he became a 1st round pick in 2011 & 14th OV. The reason was his improved lateral movement and footspeed, all of a sudden he was NHL material. The NHL teams and the Habs should be paying close attention to these stories, it would behoove them to do so, IMHO.
GlassesJacketShirt
Registered User
Herein lies a problem for a great number of young prospects that went the CHL route. Prospects that went on to college had very good programs and coaches to help teach players in increasing their footspeed etc. Jamie Oleksiak the 6'7" - 250 lbs RD for Dallas being a good example of players that benefitted from the football coaches at Northeastern when he played there. Their coaches teach linebackers/ tackles of huge size how to increase their footspeed, doing simple exercises. Oleksiak's improved footspeed over the season before his draft, was so good he became a 1st round pick in 2011 & 14th OV. The reason was his improved lateral movement and footspeed, all of a sudden he was NHL material. The NHL teams and the Habs should be paying close attention to these stories, it would behoove them to do so, IMHO.
Kinda wish McCarron went that route in retrospect.
Ezpz
No mad pls
- Apr 16, 2013
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NCAA route is for guys who need to develop off the ice. McCarron has a pro frame, he most certainly needs to play as much hockey as possible if he wants to be an NHLer some day.
Herein lies a problem for a great number of young prospects that went the CHL route. Prospects that went on to college had very good programs and coaches to help teach players in increasing their footspeed etc. Jamie Oleksiak the 6'7" - 250 lbs RD for Dallas being a good example of players that benefitted from the football coaches at Northeastern when he played there. Their coaches teach linebackers/ tackles of huge size how to increase their footspeed, doing simple exercises. Oleksiak's improved footspeed over the season before his draft, was so good he became a 1st round pick in 2011 & 14th OV. The reason was his improved lateral movement and footspeed, all of a sudden he was NHL material. The NHL teams and the Habs should be paying close attention to these stories, it would behoove them to do so, IMHO.
Great informative post. Nice job.
S Bah
Registered User
McCarron was playing for the USNTDP, most certainly they have all of the benefits the college teams have in regards to coaching. The managers & staff for the USNTDP quite often are recruited from productive college programs, the TML's recruited Asst Coach Greg Cronin from Northeastern after seeing the massive improvements to their program and Oleksiak. Brian Burke as GM then, could see the benefit Cronin would be to the TML's and their huge prospects, IMHO.
As you say McCarron's development improves by playing more games in a pro type environment. Dale Hunter as his head coach is arguably the best coach outside the NHL, playing in London for him is like winning the lottery, IMHO. The off-ice training he's doing this summer is apparently doing wonders for his leg strength, improving his balance and all round game most likely.I'm excited at the possibility of McCarron being a gigantic centerman for the Habs in the playoffs in a 2-3 more yrs.
Thanks JAVO16, just one of the stories I read about prospects for the 2011 draft, some are worth reading for that kind of insight. I usually try to enlighten others about the interesting ones.
Exactly...being a "project" type player he needs reps to rough out the edges.
Hopefully he can get more minutes in London next year...definitely has NHL top 9 F tools.
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
- Jan 5, 2003
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Herein lies a problem for a great number of young prospects that went the CHL route. Prospects that went on to college had very good programs and coaches to help teach players in increasing their footspeed etc. Jamie Oleksiak the 6'7" - 250 lbs RD for Dallas being a good example of players that benefitted from the football coaches at Northeastern when he played there. Their coaches teach linebackers/ tackles of huge size how to increase their footspeed, doing simple exercises. Oleksiak's improved footspeed over the season before his draft, was so good he became a 1st round pick in 2011 & 14th OV. The reason was his improved lateral movement and footspeed, all of a sudden he was NHL material. The NHL teams and the Habs should be paying close attention to these stories, it would behoove them to do so, IMHO.
I'm a big fan of the NCAA. But you can't say that it's the route for everyone to go. And you can't say that players don't improve their foot speed if they don't go that route. You're talking to me about Oleksiak and it's fine. But I'll be talking to you about Fischer who improved NOTHING. And I'll talk to you about Jérémy Grégoire who, in the CHL, improved his skating A WHOLE LOT. And I can seriously give you A LOT of CHL players that improved their skating over the course of their junior careers. You could make a case that a guy awfully raw like Oleksiak, it was more about practices for him than games and it's fine. It's a good point for players that have the body and need to work on everything else. But Ellis wasn't that guy. And at one point, in a world of black and white, when people say that drafting isn't the problem, it's development, I'd say yes.....But not always. Sometimes it's just a question of a player not happening. You cannot make a Ferrari out of everybody. Players reaching their ceiling too soon is not always a question of development. It's a question of just reaching your ceiling. There's a lot of "nothing you can do" prospects. As there are draft misses and development misses. You talk to me about Oleksiak and it's fine I agree in his case. I know that I was a big fan of a couple of giant NCAA d-men myself. From Mark Mitera, to Jamie McBain, Nick Petrecki, Colby Cohen, Theo Ruth, to one of my greatest fantasm towering Will Weber, Brandon Burlon, Corey Fienhage etc.... Plenty of d-men that had, for me, an incredible future if their development would have been as it could have been...and it wasn't. Their fault...development's fault, just bad draft evaluation fault..., whatever, end-result is that the NCAA didn't make miracles and didn't develop them as much as everybody thought they would develop into, and particularly not on the skating department from overall skating, feet agility, lateral mobility and so on....
And then, there's the whole playing a full calendar compared to a half one, while a league can be a gain in something, is a loss in something else etc.
S Bah
Registered User
I wasn't trying to say the college route is the only route, merely pointing out a particular case that helped Oleksiak. If the player isn't driven by passion for the game, no amount of help will make a difference. It's the "old you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" McCarron is a player that's driven to succeed like Oleksiak and many others. That's one of the main criteria the Habs & their scouts look for, otherwise their development program is worthless.
It's not like hockey is different to most businesses, companies that are successful look for people with great attitudes and passion in the field of endeavor, whatever it may be, IMHO.
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
- Jan 5, 2003
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- 37,245
I wasn't trying to say the college route is the only route, merely pointing out a particular case that helped Oleksiak. If the player isn't driven by passion for the game, no amount of help will make a difference. It's the "old you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" McCarron is a player that's driven to succeed like Oleksiak and many others. That's one of the main criteria the Habs & their scouts look for, otherwise their development program is worthless.
It's not like hockey is different to most businesses, companies that are successful look for people with great attitudes and passion in the field of endeavor, whatever it may be, IMHO.
True. But great attitudes can be found on any leagues. I just read that Jamie McBain biggest problem has nothing to do with his skills. But his attitude. He just isn't into working hard. But then you will have a Bournival who will be all business and will work his butt off till he retires. Anyway, I get your point. I hope you get mine.
QuebecPride
Registered User
For those interested, here are the Habs' best 25 prospects, in my mind.
1. Jacob De La Rose C/W
2. Nathan Beaulieu D
3. Jarred Tinordi D
4. Nikita Scherbak RW
5. Zachary Fucale G
6. Sven Andrighetto LW/RW
7. Arturri Lehkonen C/W
8. Mike McCarron C/W
9. Tim Bozon LW
10. Mac Bennett D
11. Magnus Nygren D
12. Charles Hudon LW/RW
13. Greg Pateryn D
14. Martin Reway C/W
15. Connor Crisp C/W
16. Jérémy Grégoire C
17. Dalton Thrower D
18. Darren Dietz D
19. Brett Lernout D
20. Morgan Ellis D
21. Christian Thomas RW
22. Daniel Audette C/W
23. Mark MacMillan C/W
24. Hayden Hawkey G
25. Patrick Holland C/W
Unranked because of lack of viewings: Koberstein, Sekac, Condon, Evans, Carr.
1. Jacob De La Rose C/W
2. Nathan Beaulieu D
3. Jarred Tinordi D
4. Nikita Scherbak RW
5. Zachary Fucale G
6. Sven Andrighetto LW/RW
7. Arturri Lehkonen C/W
8. Mike McCarron C/W
9. Tim Bozon LW
10. Mac Bennett D
11. Magnus Nygren D
12. Charles Hudon LW/RW
13. Greg Pateryn D
14. Martin Reway C/W
15. Connor Crisp C/W
16. Jérémy Grégoire C
17. Dalton Thrower D
18. Darren Dietz D
19. Brett Lernout D
20. Morgan Ellis D
21. Christian Thomas RW
22. Daniel Audette C/W
23. Mark MacMillan C/W
24. Hayden Hawkey G
25. Patrick Holland C/W
Unranked because of lack of viewings: Koberstein, Sekac, Condon, Evans, Carr.
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