2 #1 Franchise 80 point centers vs 2 #1 Norris D

[LeafsNation75]

Tavares is borderline. He's surpassed 80 points at his peak, so he at least meets that qualification. But, like Seguin and Scheifele, only barely surpassed that threshold.

IMO, I just like to think of franchise centers as being players you can build a championship around. Or if they're unfortunate to play for a mediocre team their most of their career (ie. a Dionne, a Lindros, McDavid if the Oilers never improve), then be dominant among their peers (ie. top 5 player in the league) on an individual level for multiple years.

I know Lindros never won a Stanley Cup but he him and the Flyers still made the Final in 1997, plus they had Conference Final appearances in 1995 and 2000. Not including 1999 when he was hurt the Flyers and could not play in the first round against the Maple Leafs, the Flyers only missed the playoffs twice with Lindros in 1993 and 1994, so I don't think the Flyers were a mediocre team.

 

[Drytoast]

The poll is clearly meant to be Tavares + Matthews versus Karlsson + Burns.

Always know that we own these boards and every vote is about us now!

 

[The Abusement Park]

Do you consider Tavares a franchise center? And I don't consider Seguin one either but you don't need a franchise center to win a cup.

Even though every team to win a cup since like 1995 has had one?

 

[Atomos2]

People are gonna be surprised when they see how average San Jose's overall defensive play is gonna be.

 

[Leafidelity]

Stay tuned to find out

 

[Victorious Secret]

As a fan, I'll take the centers. As a coach, I'd take the defense. As a non-reader, I'll take one of each.

 

[BAM]

Even though every team to win a cup since like 1995 has had one?

Even though every team to win a cup since like 1995 has had one?

sarcasm

 

[BAM]

Tavares is borderline. He's surpassed 80 points at his peak, so he at least meets that qualification. But, like Seguin and Scheifele, only barely surpassed that threshold.

IMO, I just like to think of franchise centers as being players you can build a championship around. Or if they're unfortunate to play for a mediocre team their most of their career (ie. a Dionne, a Lindros, McDavid if the Oilers never improve), then be dominant among their peers (ie. top 5 player in the league) on an individual level for multiple years.

Kopitar and Getzlaf hit 91 as their peak, Tavares' career high is 86 points...a mere 5 point gap makes them franchise players? Especially considering they've had far better teams around them too in that time.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

In general, I’ll take the two #1Cs.

In a case like Burns+Karlsson Vs. Tavares+Matthews where the defensemen have a PPG that is 0.008 less than the forwards over the past 3 seasons, I will take the defensemen.

You’re absolutely right. Problem is, one of those two centres has never scored 80 points and the other one only 3 times in nine seasons.

If you grab a random season since Tavares entered the NHL, it is just as likely that one of Burns or Karlsson wins a Norris as it is that one of Tavares or Matthews scores 80 points.

 

[BeastoftheEast85]

The poll is clearly meant to be Tavares + Matthews versus Karlsson + Burns.

I don’t think so, Matthews hasn’t scored close to 80 points (though he was on pace for it last season). This is more Backstrom, Kuznetsov.

Regardless I take the Norris Dman

 

[Agent Zub]

For people who are saying that the two centers win the cup more often... I'd argue that is because it's more common to have 2 franchise centers versus 2 Norris D on the same team.

We have Burns Karlsson, Niedermayer Stevens and Niedermayer and Pronger as the only ones who really fit the billing in the last 20 years.

You could make an argument for Weber and Suter. But neither are as good as the former three pairings.

 

[psycat]

The centers. We've seen teams without Norris caliber dmen win the cup lately. We haven't seen the same for teams without a franchise center.

I mean the only time we have seen it is when the team got Crosby+Malkin on the same team and they are not "80 pts" centers, they are two borderline generational centers. And even then I would argue that Letang on a game per game basis might be a Norris caliber defenceman. Or am I missing something?

 

[Strait2thecup]

People are gonna be surprised when they see how average San Jose's overall defensive play is gonna be.

Don’t really know how you can say that as this is pretty unprecedented but I’m expecting them to be an absolute force

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I don't even know if I'd consider an 80 point center a "franchise center". Not if that's his absolute peak he reaches.

So Kopitar didn't qualify until last year?

 

[Skolman]

People are gonna be surprised when they see how average San Jose's overall defensive play is gonna be.

Just as surprised as Leafs fans when they realize that the Leafs are not going to run over every team in the league this year?

 

[KingTux]

Well the Pens have 3 Stanley Cup since Malkin and Crosby started to play together in 06 so...

 

[The Abusement Park]

For people who are saying that the two centers win the cup more often... I'd argue that is because it's more common to have 2 franchise centers versus 2 Norris D on the same team.

We have Burns Karlsson, Niedermayer Stevens and Niedermayer and Pronger as the only ones who really fit the billing in the last 20 years.

You could make an argument for Weber and Suter. But neither are as good as the former three pairings.

And almost every cup winning team had 2 1C's.

Detroit: Yzerman/Fedorov
Avs: Sakic/Forsberg
Stars: Modano/Nieuwendyk
Detroit: Datsyuk/Zetterberg
Pens: Crosby/Malkin
Canes: Staal/Brindamour
Caps: Kuzy/Backstrom
Lightning: Lecavalier/Richards
Kings: Kopitar/Carter
Bruins: Bergeron/Krejci

That's like 90% of Cup winners since 95. The two C formula is proven to work.

 

[DomBarr]

thats unfair. Niedermayer doesn't belong

What??? I think you are thinking of Rob as opposed to his HOF brother Scott....

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Kopitar and Getzlaf hit 91 as their peak, Tavares' career high is 86 points...a mere 5 point gap makes them franchise players? Especially considering they've had far better teams around them too in that time.

So Kopitar didn't qualify until last year?

Kopitar's like Bergeron, in that he's a special exception due to his Selke caliber defense. In either case, no he doesn't qualify, because even based on his offense he's surpassed 80 points twice.

Getzlaf's finished well over 80 points as a career high 91 points, he's also paced to finish near 90 points 2 additional times. He clearly surpasses the 80 mark which I originally mentioned, on multiple occasions and by quite a bit.

IMO, that is the difference between Getzlaf and Tavares. Tavares has, yes, surpassed the 80 point mark. But only barely, thus, me calling him borderline.

 

[BAM]

Kopitar's like Bergeron, in that he's a special exception due to his Selke caliber defense. In either case, no he doesn't qualify, because even based on his offense he's surpassed 80 points twice.

Getzlaf's finished well over 80 points as a career high 91 points, he's also paced to finish near 90 points 2 additional times. He clearly surpasses the 80 mark which I originally mentioned, on multiple occasions and by quite a bit.

IMO, that is the difference between Getzlaf and Tavares. Tavares has, yes, surpassed the 80 point mark. But only barely, thus, me calling him borderline.

Getzlaf has finished over 80 points 3 times in his career, 91 being the high point. Tavares has finished over 80 points 3 times as well with his tops being 86. He also has a season where he had 66 points in 59 games which paces out to 92 points over a full season. You don't know what you're talking about and your anti-Tavares bias is clouding it.

Getzlaf career average over 82 game season: 78 points
Tavares career average over 82 game season: 76 points

Getzlaf career playoff ppg: .96
Tavares career playoff ppg: .92

You're really nitpicking here. Tavares' career high is 5 points less than Getzlaf, they have the same amount of seasons over 80 points and like Getzlaf, Tavares has had a season where he's been on pace for 90+ points and another where he paces for 80. Tavares has the same amount of 80+ point seasons as Getzlaf and he's played 9 seasons to Getzlaf's 13. This all while not getting to play with the likes of Perry, Ryan and Selanne and having the inferior team his entire career.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Getzlaf has finished over 80 points 3 times in his career, 91 being the high point. Tavares has finished over 80 points 3 times as well with his tops being 86. He also has a season where he had 66 points in 59 games which paces out to 92 points over a full season. You don't know what you're talking about and your anti-Tavares bias is clouding it.

Getzlaf career average over 82 game season: 78 points
Tavares career average over 82 game season: 76 points

Getzlaf career playoff ppg: .96
Tavares career playoff ppg: .92

You're really nitpicking here. Tavares' career high is 5 points less than Getzlaf, they have the same amount of seasons over 80 points and like Getzlaf, Tavares has had a season where he's been on pace for 90+ points and another where he paces for 80. Tavares has the same amount of 80+ point seasons as Getzlaf and he's played 9 seasons to Getzlaf's 13. This all while not getting to play with the likes of Perry, Ryan and Selanne and having the inferior team his entire career.

Getzlaf is better defensively than Tavares. His career high is better than Tavares'. Heck, his best two seasons are better than Tavares' career best season.

I think it's you who is nitpicking based on bias because you're not happy that I called Tavares a borderline franchise center. And that's the funny part. The borderline part seems to be your sticking point despite the fact I wouldn't necessarily argue if someone insisted he was a franchise center since, as I said, he's close enough to be borderline to surpass my criteria.

 

[The Burdened]

depends on the dmen

If it's guys like Karlsson + Burns who provide the same things being gamebreaking offensively but are just so-so at the actual position, I'd rather have the centers.

If it's Pronger + Neidermayer who can shut the studio down for 40 minutes (I know they rarely if ever played together, but there was always one of them on the ice), give me them always

 

[triggrman]

I would take Matthews-Barkov over Burns-Karlsson or Subban-Josi.

Even as a Preds fan I would lean that way as well, it's close though. Pens showed us how having 2 elite centers wins, but they did need a goalie to stand on his head to do it. Oilers showed us that it has to be 2 elite centers...

 

[780il]

Closet Matthews + Tavares vs Karlsson + Burns thread.


Whatever helps you sleep at night Leafs fans...

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

For people who are saying that the two centers win the cup more often... I'd argue that is because it's more common to have 2 franchise centers versus 2 Norris D on the same team.

We have Burns Karlsson, Niedermayer Stevens and Niedermayer and Pronger as the only ones who really fit the billing in the last 20 years.

You could make an argument for Weber and Suter. But neither are as good as the former three pairings.

There's also Pronger-Macinnis on the late 90s blues, both Norris winners.