GDT: 10/17/2019 Game 7: Detroit Red Wings @ Calgary Flames (9pm EST)

[Rzombo4 prez]

The reactions to the recent games really show just how hard it actually is to defer gratification. This may seem a bit deterministic, but there is nothing that either Holland or Yzerman could have reasonably done to avoid being where we are today. Now we could have been here a couple of years earlier if ownership didn't have a streak to stroke, but one way or another, we were going to be this bad at some point unless we routinely defied draft-day odds (which we all know wasn't going to happen).

People shouldn't be shocked. This season was coming whether we wanted it to or not. We weren't going to get materially better until we got materially worse.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I think it's a risk any team runs if they choose to ice a team that has no realistic shot at even competing 90% of the time (slight exaggeration. maybe.). Is Yzerman's goal to foster an environment where guys are more likely to accept failure? No, I don't think that's any GM's goal. But I think that's a risk a team runs with a truly awful team. You have to decide if being that extra bit of awful is worth it.

But you also can't have it both ways (not saying you specifically are asking for it). You can't complain that a GM does not keep roster spots open for competition from below (a big historic complaint about Holland) and at the same time bitch about not signing additional depth (perhaps a new complaint about Yzerman).

My personal opinion is that signing this illusive "skilled" NHL vet would not have changed the fortune of this team in any material respect. The players actually good enough to make a real difference to our scoring depth were either: (a) already spoken for, or (b) not signing a reasonable contract with a doormat in a less than premiere location.

 

[YpsiWings]

What in the world happened to Mike Green? Easily the player I am most disappointed in thus far, absolute trash defensively and no offense.

 

[SCD]

I think it's a risk any team runs if they choose to ice a team that has no realistic shot at even competing 90% of the time (slight exaggeration. maybe.). Is Yzerman's goal to foster an environment where guys are more likely to accept failure? No, I don't think that's any GM's goal. But I think that's a risk a team runs with a truly awful team. You have to decide if being that extra bit of awful is worth it.

It may also be part of the reason that not many kids are in Detroit. Yzerman may not want them to experience losing in such magnitude.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Red Wings need some scoring help on the 2nd line for sure. Doesn't help when the coach is acting like this a Xbox game and mis-matches every line to create... "depth".

- Red Wings trade LW/C Andras Anthansiou, D Trevor Daley(50% salary), RHD Madison Bowey, LW/RW Filip Zadina and a 2nd and 3rd round pick to the Devils for LW Taylor Hall who signs a 5 year extension worth 45 million dollars.

Tyler Bertuzzi – (A)Dylan Larkin – Anthony Mantha
Taylor Hall – (A)Frans Nielson –Taro Hirose
Adam Erne – Valtteri Filppula – (A)Luke Glendening
Darren Helm – Jacob de le Rose – (A)Justin Abdelkader

* Christoffer Ehn, C/LW/RW

I know Red Wings are in rebuild mode but Halls a solid player to go after if he's willing to sign an extension like Mark Stone. Adds a legit second line threat, prolly should be on a first line but I don't wanna break that unit up. Spread out the depth. Just cost a lot. Can't see the Wings doing this unless they remain competitive/playoff picture through, idk, December.

I don't see Taylor Hall wanting to sign here, like at all.

 

[Winger98]

The reactions to the recent games really show just how hard it actually is to defer gratification. This may seem a bit deterministic, but there is nothing that either Holland or Yzerman could have reasonably done to avoid being where we are today. Now we could have been here a couple of years earlier if ownership didn't have a streak to stroke, but one way or another, we were going to be this bad at some point unless we routinely defied draft-day odds (which we all know wasn't going to happen).

People shouldn't be shocked. This season was coming whether we wanted it to or not. We weren't going to get materially better until we got materially worse.

Were the Wings not rebuilding the past two years?

I know I'm probably going to be somewhat alone on this, but there is a difference between accepting your lumps, having some down years, and rebuilding the team/farm and actively working to be as enthusiastically awful as possible. With how this team is put together, I think Yzerman went far nearer the latter than the former, and that it's not necessary and carries risks beyond just losing a bunch of games. Also, with the uncertainty of the draft lotto, I think the potential reward of the latter is questionable as well.

This team was going to be bad regardless. But I'm not sure there was a necessity to be unquestionably and purposefully awful.

edit:

But you also can't have it both ways (not saying you specifically are asking for it). You can't complain that a GM does not keep roster spots open for competition from below (a big historic complaint about Holland) and at the same time ***** about not signing additional depth (perhaps a new complaint about Yzerman).

My personal opinion is that signing this illusive "skilled" NHL vet would not have changed the fortune of this team in any material respect. The players actually good enough to make a real difference to our scoring depth were either: (a) already spoken for, or (b) not signing a reasonable contract with a doormat in a less than premiere location.

Sorry, I was typing up my post when you replied directly. With what Yzerman did, he still went out and got extra depth but it was crap. He signed Nemeth, and dealt for Erne and Biega. Flip was the only signing that was somewhat on the skill side, but also slightly redundant with Nielsen here.

I don't think signing a guy like Marleau would have materially changed the outcome of the season. The Wings probably score a few more goals and they have a second line that isn't awful every night. But I think it improves a lot of intangibles around the club and in the locker room because there are fewer of these 5-whatever games.

Would we have to overpay for a guy like Marleau? Oh, yeah. He isn't signing here for $700K. but so what? I don't think overpaying abit for one year on that is a big deal.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Were the Wings not rebuilding the past two years?

I know I'm probably going to be somewhat alone on this, but there is a difference between accepting your lumps, having some down years, and rebuilding the team/farm and actively working to be as enthusiastically awful as possible. With how this team is put together, I think Yzerman went far nearer the latter than the former, and that it's not necessary and carries risks beyond just losing a bunch of games. Also, with the uncertainty of the draft lotto, I think the potential reward of the latter is questionable as well.

This team was going to be bad regardless. But I'm not sure there was a necessity to be unquestionably and purposefully awful.

I don't know exactly what the solution is, as adding a guy like Vanek or Marleau or Daley to me does not provide enough of a benefit to really make the Wings that much better or avoid these potential pitfalls you are bringing up. The fact that Kronwall left and Green appears to have fallen off a cliff this year also doesn't help the prospect for the teams winning games. Maybe he thought Cholo and Hronek would be bigger gamebreakers. Maybe he is playing a wait-and-see approach with this new roster that he hardly knows. Maybe he expected AA and Fil to be bigger gamebreakers. I think to say he is trying to make the team as bad as possible is going by simplistic metrics (he didn't sign the FAs and didn't call up any of the young guys).

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Were the Wings not rebuilding the past two years?

I know I'm probably going to be somewhat alone on this, but there is a difference between accepting your lumps, having some down years, and rebuilding the team/farm and actively working to be as enthusiastically awful as possible. With how this team is put together, I think Yzerman went far nearer the latter than the former, and that it's not necessary and carries risks beyond just losing a bunch of games. Also, with the uncertainty of the draft lotto, I think the potential reward of the latter is questionable as well.

This team was going to be bad regardless. But I'm not sure there was a necessity to be unquestionably and purposefully awful.

How could Yzerman have materially changed the depth of this roster though? Who out there was: (a) really going to make a difference, and (b) going to sign with Detroit. I guess I am not seeing these easy fixes that you are. This is to say I don't think Yzerman is actively trying to be as bad as possible, but was simply dealt a miserable hand this year.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

You don't think we had a good shot at losing every night for the past two years? This team is going to be awful regardless, but if you create an environment where there is essentially no hope on a night to night basis, you're inviting a situation where guys just don't care. And that's not an environment that's easy to overcome, regardless of the talent you plug into it.

Holland's refusal to do a proper rebuild probably cost this team at least one top-3 pick in the last three years, which could have been used to draft a true top-pair D. Holland built teams that weren't good enough to make the playoffs and not bad enough to fall into a top-5 pick.

His refusal to give up on the playoff streak also delayed our rebuild by about 5 years.

 

[13to40]

Lindholm should be suspended:

I would love to see them both get equal suspensions out of the incident. Both stupid plays that shouldn’t be in hockey.

1 game each should be sufficient

 

[Winger98]

I don't know exactly what the solution is, as adding a guy like Vanek or Marleau or Daley to me does not provide enough of a benefit to really make the Wings that much better or avoid these potential pitfalls you are bringing up. The fact that Kronwall left and Green appears to have fallen off a cliff this year also doesn't help the prospect for the teams winning games. Maybe he thought Cholo and Hronek would be bigger gamebreakers. Maybe he is playing a wait-and-see approach with this new roster that he hardly knows. Maybe he expected AA and Fil to be bigger gamebreakers. I think to say he is trying to make the team as bad as possible is going by simplistic metrics (he didn't sign the FAs and didn't call up any of the young guys).

If you have a bad team, and you don't add anything to realistically make it materially better, I'm not sure how you can be doing anything other than making it materially worse. And if he just misread this team as being better than it is, that doesn't inspire much confidence in me, either. At least with my line of thought, he has a purpose. With this, it reads more as if he just goofed.

I didn't expect this team to be good. I thought bottom5 team in the league. But I didn't expect it to be a tire fire five games in.

 

[MBH]

there is nothing that either Holland or Yzerman could have reasonably done to avoid being where we are today. Now we could have been here a couple of years earlier if ownership didn't have a streak to stroke, but one way or another, we were going to be this bad at some point unless we routinely defied draft-day odds (which we all know wasn't going to happen).

People shouldn't be shocked. This season was coming whether we wanted it to or not. We weren't going to get materially better until we got materially worse.

I don't know about that.
You are right. This moment was coming. That was 100 percent unavoidable.
Maybe - Maybe - Holland avoids this with a rebuild-on-the-fly strategy that begins in 2010. Maybe he uses those draft picks he traded away to hit a homerun.
I can also think of a couple easy "what-ifs."
Kuznetsov over Sheahan is one of the low-hanging fruit examples.
My God, how much better we might be today with EKuz on this team.

Still, it was always a juggling act and a matter of time before it came crashing down.

But my question is this. How long do we have to suck for? Because it looks like we're headed four year 4.
And, barring something major in the trade or UFA markets, I don't see things changing until several of Zadina, Veleno, Rasmussen, Svechnikov, Cholo, Hronek and Seider mature.
So 1-2 more years beyond this year?
Seven years?

Holland spent WAY too much f***ing time spinning his wheels, pretending this team was something it was not.
Reducing our lottery odds.
At any point, Holland could have actively shopped Jimmy Howard during one of his hot starts.
I seem to recall St. Louis desperate for a tender. Calgary, desperate for a tender. Edmonton, desperate for a tender.

Its funny, because people today defend Holland's record are the ones who said tanking is a bad idea.

Well, tanking gives you the best odds.
If we finish last overall, or second from the bottom, we're in a much better position on draft day.

Bottom 2 teams and their picks over the last three years.
19 Byram/Turcotte
18 Dahlin/Tkachuk
17 Makar/Pettersson

Even had we drafted Dahlin, Makar and Turcotte, we might be sitting here sucking in year 4. But my God, the future would be WAY brighter.

The real tough thing is, in Rasmussen/Zadina/Seider, we've got guys who should be good hockey players. But I'm pretty sure none of those guys are franchise guys.
And after three years of picking top 10, that's a tough assessment.

Because lots of teams have quality NHLers and continue to suck.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I would love to see them both get equal suspensions out of the incident. Both stupid plays that shouldn’t be in hockey.

1 game each should be sufficient

Helm got a 5 minute major and ejection. To me that's enough punishment for a slash like that. Especially given the elbows towards the head that precipitated it.

 

[MBH]

If you have a bad team, and you don't add anything to realistically make it materially better, I'm not sure how you can be doing anything other than making it materially worse. And if he just misread this team as being better than it is, that doesn't inspire much confidence in me, either. At least with my line of thought, he has a purpose. With this, it reads more as if he just goofed.

I didn't expect this team to be good. I thought bottom5 team in the league. But I didn't expect it to be a tire fire five games in.

I understood the Nemeth/Flip signings.
Placeholder signings. Veterans to keep things from falling off the map.

Realistically, we lost Nyquist and Kronwall.
We replaced them with Filppula and Nemeth.
I don't think that was ever going to be a good trade for us.

Now, Athanasiou missed most of camp and the first two games with that back injury that still might be bothering him. So if he finds his game, that's going to help with secondary scoring.

But, realistically, we're 3-4.
This team could be a lot worse. We could be where Jersey, LA, Dallas or Minnesota are.

 

[Winger98]

Holland's refusal to do a proper rebuild probably cost this team at least one top-3 pick in the last three years, which could have been used to draft a true top-pair D. Holland built teams that weren't good enough to make the playoffs and not bad enough to fall into a top-5 pick.

His refusal to give up on the playoff streak also delayed our rebuild by about 5 years.

The Wings were the 4th, 5th, and 6th worst teams in the league the past three years, while picking 6th, 6th, and 9th. I don't think you're giving the rest of the league credit for how awful they've been, and how screwed the wings have been by the draft lotto. Buffalo, Ottawa (colorado, through trade), Vancouver, and Arizona are the teams that have been as comparatively bad as the wings over the past three seasons. There is one top3 pick among them over the course of those three years. Just five top5 picks out of fifteen. Buffalo, which is the worst of this bunch, had one #1 pick and two #8 selections.

Trying to be the absolute worst of the worst just doesn't gain a team a whole lot outside of also getting a ton of luck.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

If you have a bad team, and you don't add anything to realistically make it materially better, I'm not sure how you can be doing anything other than making it materially worse. And if he just misread this team as being better than it is, that doesn't inspire much confidence in me, either. At least with my line of thought, he has a purpose. With this, it reads more as if he just goofed.

I didn't expect this team to be good. I thought bottom5 team in the league. But I didn't expect it to be a tire fire five games in.

I think that is one of the questions that will continue to persist until the team is actually good. To what degree should we try to improve the team outside of drafting? Acquire too many good pieces and you not only reduce your potential for a top-tier prospect but you also hurt yourself cap-wise (unless you grab a talented player who is willing to take a one-year deal). Acquire too few good pieces or not any at all and you make the team worse and make it harder for the team to lose without looking/feeling like a garbage franchise.

I also am optimistic that we will be able to find some semblance of cohesion, and at the very least the team started out of the gate in a better position than they did last season (1-7-2 in their first 10 games, the only win coming in overtime, with an 8-2 and 7-3 shellacking to the Bruins and Canadiens respectively).

 

[Winger98]

I understood the Nemeth/Flip signings.
Placeholder signings. Veterans to keep things from falling off the map.

Realistically, we lost Nyquist and Kronwall.
We replaced them with Filppula and Nemeth.
I don't think that was ever going to be a good trade for us.

Now, Athanasiou missed most of camp and the first two games with that back injury that still might be bothering him. So if he finds his game, that's going to help with secondary scoring.

But, realistically, we're 3-4.
This team could be a lot worse. We could be where Jersey, LA, Dallas or Minnesota are.

Isn't that what's always said before it gets a lot worse? I have to say this, though. After Krupp, Quincey, and Nemeth I am fine with never pursuing another defenceman out of Colorado.

I think that is one of the questions that will continue to persist until the team is actually good. To what degree should we try to improve the team outside of drafting? Acquire too many good pieces and you not only reduce your potential for a top-tier prospect but you also hurt yourself cap-wise (unless you grab a talented player who is willing to take a one-year deal). Acquire too few good pieces or not any at all and you make the team worse and make it harder for the team to lose without looking/feeling like a garbage franchise.

I also am optimistic that we will be able to find some semblance of cohesion, and at the very least the team started out of the gate in a better position than they did last season (1-7-2 in their first 10 games, the only win coming in overtime, with an 8-2 and 7-3 shellacking to the Bruins and Canadiens respectively).

And if the team starts getting that appearance, it'll be all that much harder to get anyone decent to sign here for anything that isn't a gross over-payment.

Fair points, and I'm hopeful the team comes together a bit more. While they lack talent, they don't lack grinders. At some point, everyone outside of that top line is going to have to embrace the defensive side of the game and just try to muck out some closer contests.

 

[ricky0034]

The Wings were the 4th, 5th, and 6th worst teams in the league the past three years, while picking 6th, 6th, and 9th. I don't think you're giving the rest of the league credit for how awful they've been, and how screwed the wings have been by the draft lotto. Buffalo, Ottawa (colorado, through trade), Vancouver, and Arizona are the teams that have been as comparatively bad as the wings over the past three seasons. There is one top3 pick among them over the course of those three years. Just five top5 picks out of fifteen. Buffalo, which is the worst of this bunch, had one #1 pick and two #8 selections.

Trying to be the absolute worst of the worst just doesn't gain a team a whole lot outside of also getting a ton of luck.

every spot lower you finish is a higher minimum pick though,it's not all luck

even the worst case scenario for the last place team involves picking 4th overall which even compared to 6 is actually a pretty huge difference

last decade 4th overalls and 6th overalls:

Byram/Seider
Tkachuk/Zadina
Makar/Glass
Puljujarvi/Tkachuk
Marner/Zacha
Bennett/Virtanen
Jones/Monahan
Reinhart/Lindholm
Larsson/Zibanejad
Johansen/Connolly

obviously bad picks happen and it's something of a mixed bag which of those is better year to year but overall there's a very clear difference in top end there,and higher picks tend to be viewed in a more positive light as well so even a couple of the worse 4th overall guys in Reinhart/Larsson ended up getting turned into Barzal/Hall in trades

and that's just 4th vs 6th

 

[ArGarBarGar]

And if the team starts getting that appearance, it'll be all that much harder to get anyone decent to sign here for anything that isn't a gross over-payment.

To be fair, I think we are well past that point, anyway.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Were the Wings not rebuilding the past two years?

Sorry, I was typing up my post when you replied directly. With what Yzerman did, he still went out and got extra depth but it was crap. He signed Nemeth, and dealt for Erne and Biega. Flip was the only signing that was somewhat on the skill side, but also slightly redundant with Nielsen here.

I don't think signing a guy like Marleau would have materially changed the outcome of the season. The Wings probably score a few more goals and they have a second line that isn't awful every night. But I think it improves a lot of intangibles around the club and in the locker room because there are fewer of these 5-whatever games.

Would we have to overpay for a guy like Marleau? Oh, yeah. He isn't signing here for $700K. but so what? I don't think overpaying abit for one year on that is a big deal.

A UFA signing is a two-way street. A player needs to be willing to sign in Detroit. It isn't a unilateral decision for Detroit to make. I could be wrong on this, but I thought that Carolina bought Marleau out after the Toronto trade so that he could specifically re-sign with SJ as a UFA. He only played a handful of games in Carolina before the buy-out. Furthermore, the only tradeable assets we have are pieces we can't afford to give up which makes improving through trades very difficult.

I personally think we are a better team with Nemeth, Erne and Biega than we are without. If Yzerman really wanted us to fail, he would have kept Veleno and Rasmussen (and maybe even Zadina) with the big club. We are not the 68 Tank Special that you think we are. It is just that good hockey players are hard to come by.

 

[LeftWingLocked]

We can't keep on being this bad year after year and thinking it's ok and we'll get a high pick and be contenders. Look at Zadina, what a big disappointment he has been so far. You'd think someone that wants the make the big club would put in a better effort than he did this preseason. Now I'm wondering why he slipped to Holland, teams probably seen something in his attitude or work ethic to say let Kenny Boy take him.

People need to stop thinking that the silver bullet is a bunch of high draft picks. Look at Edmonton. It doesn't work that easy. They've become a cesspool with a losing culture and we are getting to that point here. I'm going to wait and see how the next couple of months play out but if we continue to be this bad, Blashill needs to go.

 

[TheMule93]

We can't keep on being this bad year after year and thinking it's ok and we'll get a high pick and be contenders. Look at Zadina, what a big disappointment he has been so far. You'd think someone that wants the make the big club would put in a better effort than he did this preseason. Now I'm wondering why he slipped to Holland, teams probably seen something in his attitude or work ethic to say let Kenny Boy take him.

People need to stop thinking that the silver bullet is a bunch of high draft picks. Look at Edmonton. It doesn't work that easy. They've become a cesspool with a losing culture and we are getting to that point here. I'm going to wait and see how the next couple of months play out but if we continue to be this bad, Blashill needs to go.

Ok, if not high draft picks, then what is the solution? Low draft picks?

 

[waltdetroit]

According to the "Wings for Breakfast" podcast, the TML's took 67 shots and 24 were blocked. AA's line was on the ice for 30 of those shots in 13 minutes of play. Blash had to break/mix up the lines

 

[LeftWingLocked]

Ok, if not high draft picks, then what is the solution? Low draft picks?

Trades, free agents, good coaching. You can not build a team by saying "Well lets lose every game and get a high pick" and saying Blashill doesn't have talent so it's ok to be this bad. We've missed the playoffs for 3 years straight, going on 4 this year. How long is a "rebuild"? 10 years?

Can you imagine sucking the whole year and picking a guy that is so horrible in his second training camp (Zadina) that you wonder how why we even drafted him? It's frustrating as hell being a Wings fan right now. Getting blown out sucks and we are on year 4 of the "rebuild". It's hard to swallow another throw away year with no progress.

 

[SCD]

It is amazing how people cannot be more realistic regarding the expectations of these first round draft picks. They are not generational talents. Larkin is an anomaly to do it in his D+2 year at his draft position.