Speculation: Райан О'Рейли: Here's my number, so call me maybe; Rayan's IV Thread

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CobraAcesS

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Out of legitimate curiosity, what leverage would he have, other than signing an Offer Sheet?

I would agree that he doesn't have "zero leverage" but he has very little leverage.

The only way I see O'Reilly getting some crazy leverage is if he signed a 1 year offer sheet for 5M...

It's a scary thought because IF IF that happened, his Q/O would have to be 5M or we let him walk. So if we match we are committed to giving him 5M every year or letting him walk until he hits UFA status. That would be a hard one to get out of if he didn't become worth that contract very quickly...

The chances of another team doing that though... SLIM to NONE, but it could happen. As of now we own his short hairs for 4 more years.

The reason I bring this up is because of why they say Subban signed his deal. The second year is closer to 4M which sets a limit for his Q/O.
 

CobraAcesS

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Leverage is a relative term. I think he has more leverage than, say, Subban did with Montreal. The Habs were still able to ice a competitive team without P.K. (they're lucky Markov has somehow stayed healthy so far) whereas the Avs cannot without O'Reilly. But I guess at this point the Avs can't ice a competitive team regardless, so maybe that's a moot point.

And yeah, not saying he's in the driver's seat or anything, but to say he has "zero leverage" is ridiculous. Counting O'Reilly, the Avs have now gotten rid of three tremendously important defensive forwards from last year, and a fourth is sitting out with a concussion. The Avs are only dealing from a position of strength because the plug has effectively been pulled on the season, and even before that they didn't ice an adequate team. And that's just sad.

I think with our injuries, management can ride the 'injury' line all the way to the draft now. Especially because 'before' Landeskog and Downie went down, we still looked like a competitive team and won games.

Now with Johnson, Landeskog, and Downie out... We can scream INJURY all the way home/#2 over all. If we were healthy and losing it would give him a bit more leverage. (This also scares the crap out of me when it comes to **** canning Sacco. :rant: :cry: )
 

RockLobster

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Leverage is a relative term. I think he has more leverage than, say, Subban did with Montreal. The Habs were still able to ice a competitive team without P.K. (they're lucky Markov has somehow stayed healthy so far) whereas the Avs cannot without O'Reilly. But I guess at this point the Avs can't ice a competitive team regardless, so maybe that's a moot point.

And yeah, not saying he's in the driver's seat or anything, but to say he has "zero leverage" is ridiculous. Counting O'Reilly, the Avs have now gotten rid of three tremendously important defensive forwards from last year, and a fourth is sitting out with a concussion. They effectively painted themselves into a corner when they got rid of Winnik and McClement, and now they play hardball when the team is virtually bereft of good shutdown forwards.

The Avs are only dealing from a position of strength because the plug has effectively been pulled on the season, and even before that they didn't ice an adequate team. And that's just sad.

Just to play "Devil's Advocate" here. The Avs didn't really "give up" on McClement and Winnik

Even TPS has stated that Winnik has, in the past with other teams, seemingly priced himself very high. The Avs just weren't willing to go that high for him, and apparently neither was SJ.

And McClement signed for less money in Toronto than apparently we offered him or what he was getting offered as a UFA. We can't fault a guy for wanting to play at home can we?
 

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Can't the Avs simply take him to arbitration and get his salary determined via that, higher or lower than the QO?
 

CobraAcesS

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Can't the Avs simply take him to arbitration and get his salary determined via that, higher or lower than the QO?

Not sure but I don't think so... I would of thought that would of been thrown in with the Subban stories, the media covered that tighter than a Nat's *******.

Would be interesting to know for sure though... Do teams file for arbitration after the Q/O or is that part of the same process? I always thought it was separate and the arbitration process came later.
 

Pokecheque

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I think with our injuries, management can ride the 'injury' line all the way to the draft now. Especially because 'before' Landeskog and Downie went down, we still looked like a competitive team and won games.

Now with Johnson, Landeskog, and Downie out... We can scream INJURY all the way home/#2 over all. If we were healthy and losing it would give him a bit more leverage.

Really? We looked like a competitive team in the opening season loss against Minnesota, then beating two teams both currently one point ahead of us in the conference cellar before getting destroyed by the Sharks? Really? You call that competitive?

They can (and I'm sure they will) scream INJURY all they want. Fact is, this was a terrible team even before the injuries. They even managed to ice a worse defense than the one that helped us finish seven points short of a playoff spot. That's not leverage.
 

Lonewolfe2015

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Not sure but I don't think so... I would of thought that would of been thrown in with the Subban stories, the media covered that tighter than a Nat's *******.

Would be interesting to know for sure though... Do teams file for arbitration after the Q/O or is that part of the same process? I always thought it was separate and the arbitration process came later.

Same process, QO then arbitration. QO is just to retain rights, like we did with Holos. Pretty sure we can elect to arbitrate if he rejects his QO. I also believe we're not obligated to raise his QO since it's over 2-3 mil, so we could QO then arbitrate I think.
 

CobraAcesS

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Really? We looked like a competitive team in the opening season loss against Minnesota, then beating two teams both currently one point ahead of us in the conference cellar before getting destroyed by the Sharks? Really? You call that competitive?

They can (and I'm sure they will) scream INJURY all they want. Fact is, this was a terrible team even before the injuries. They even managed to ice a worse defense than the one that helped us finish seven points short of a playoff spot. That's not leverage.

I still think with Landeskog and Downie we would be ok considering how Mitchell has played... Keep in mind that there was no training camp or pre-season. 10 games in like this we are seeing what the team really is, except we are not, because we are missing two arms and a leg.

I'm on the fence about us being a playoff team, but I think we could of finished as good or better than we did last year. Now we won't know... and They WILL ride the injury train all the way into the station.

Fact is... you or I cannot prove it one way or another. (Them competing for a playoff spot TBH)
 

CobraAcesS

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Same process, QO then arbitration. QO is just to retain rights, like we did with Holos. Pretty sure we can elect to arbitrate if he rejects his QO. I also believe we're not obligated to raise his QO since it's over 2-3 mil, so we could QO then arbitrate I think.

Yeah but it's that little tiny line in there in between, if we Q/O and he just accepts (@ 5M) how do we arbitrate? I always though it was like "Ok in order to make a Q/O you have to offer this "???" much" The amount would be 5M based on the former rules.

I dare someone to send an E-mail to Altitude during the game and ask this question... I wouldn't mind seeing McNabb or Haynes head explode, lolz (Do they do those during away games?)

Which ever team tried that **** would from then on become ENEMY of the state, hated as much or more than Detroit.
 
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CB Joe

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The Av's don't want to go to arbitration. It will lead them to a take it or lose O'Reilly for nothing situation. Also from what I've heard about arbitration is that its a very ugly process for the player and team.
 

CobraAcesS

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The Av's don't want to go to arbitration. It will lead them to a take it or lose O'Reilly for nothing situation. Also from what I've heard about arbitration is that its a very ugly process for the player and team.

We know that... We are talking about IF a team gives him a 1 year 5M offer sheet which would make his qualifying offer for the following year 5M. Without qualifying him we would be letting him walk...

What we are wondering about is if that's it or if we could take him to arbitration to get his salary down if he didn't play up to 5M.
 

CB Joe

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So? Doesn't mean zero leverage when it's the Avs who are suffering more than the player.

hockey player's only has so many years to make their money. Ryan losing a year of his career is as a bad as or worse than the Avs struggling. If the Avs wanted to they could keep him out of the NHL until he's 27.
 

Iceberg

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O'Reilly is not coming back no matter what! he could sign ANY offer right now and it wouldn't matter. He WILL be traded sooner or latter! He may even sign and play a few games, maybe even the rest of the season, BUT HE WILL BE TRADED!!!

THAT IS THE AVS WAY!!!

And i'm glad, because most fans here SUPPORT THE AVS WAY!

Never mind that in DENVER most people don't give a **** about what is going on with the AVS. Even here, in this meaningless internet forum, most people support the Avs rebuilding plan!

So, WE deserve the team we've got. Every fanbase deserves the team they've got.

So lets enjoy what we have!!!

LONG LIVE KROENKE E LACROIX!!!!
 

Eichel 9

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Sabres fan here.

As far as Ennis goes, I don't remember ever hearing about concussion issues. After some research, he suffered a mild concussion in the AHL and was day-to-day and it was nothing major and hasn't had any side effects.

He is also better suited as a left-winger IMO but is playing center due to us having no centers on our roster.
 

Pokecheque

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hockey player's only has so many years to make their money. Ryan losing a year of his career is as a bad as or worse than the Avs struggling. If the Avs wanted to they could keep him out of the NHL until he's 27.

But they won't, and everyone knows that, including O'Reilly and his agent.

The Avs are still the ones on the losing end here. They're the ones that lose a key player they've been grooming to be a core player for the last three years. They're the ones suffering a setback in their supposed rebuild. They're the ones icing a team that no one is going to pay any sort of money to go see, much less a team that could help rebuild the season ticket base. O'Reilly will get his $$$ no matter what, lost year or no lost year. He still made decent money in the KHL.
 

Iceberg

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Since I'M an AVS fan, dumb as hell, I'm gonna say that ROR is a greed *******!!!!

He could NEVER be standing up for anything!!! HE JUST HATES DENVER AND IT'S FANS!!!!

He is probably losing money over this, BUT HE IS JUST DOING THIS BECAUSE HE IS GREED AND DUMB, HATE AVS FANS AND DOESN'T WANT TO PLAY HERE AND WAS THROWING GAMES AWAY LAST YEARS AND THAT'S WHY WE TRADED HIM FOR BRIAN ELLIOT, AND CAN'T PLAY HERE BECAUSE OF HEALTH CONDITIONS, AND HIS FATHER IS SENILE, AND HE IS TOO OLD AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE LOWBALLING HIM, AND HAS A CONCUSION HISTORY, AND WE HAVE A BETTER PUCK MOVING DEFENSEMAN (HUNWICK) AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE TRADING HIM FOR A 2ND.

GOOD RIDDANCE FACTOR!
 

Avs_19

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And McClement signed for less money in Toronto than apparently we offered him or what he was getting offered as a UFA. We can't fault a guy for wanting to play at home can we?

I could be wrong but I thought playing time had something to do with it as well. He didn't want to be a 4th line forward and PK specialist.

He would be getting a lot of ice time and playing a bigger role right now with the O'Reilly debacle.
 

Iceberg

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Just to play "Devil's Advocate" here. The Avs didn't really "give up" on McClement and Winnik

Even TPS has stated that Winnik has, in the past with other teams, seemingly priced himself very high. The Avs just weren't willing to go that high for him, and apparently neither was SJ.

And McClement signed for less money in Toronto than apparently we offered him or what he was getting offered as a UFA. We can't fault a guy for wanting to play at home can we?

I'm dumb, but isn't it interesting that Anderson, Winnik and McClement signed for less money then what we offered (according to some posters here)?? i don't know, but maybe Quincey was right and a lot of guys wanted out???

I bet they all wanted out because of ROR, and not because of management!!!
 

ANewHope

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But they won't, and everyone knows that, including O'Reilly and his agent.

The Avs are still the ones on the losing end here. They're the ones that lose a key player they've been grooming to be a core player for the last three years. They're the ones suffering a setback in their supposed rebuild. They're the ones icing a team that no one is going to pay any sort of money to go see, much less a team that could help rebuild the season ticket base. O'Reilly will get his $$$ no matter what, lost year or no lost year. He still made decent money in the KHL.

It's no doubt a setback but it's nowhere near as large as some are making it out to be. Were going to get a ****** return most likely and that'll sting but I think we have alot more going for us than some think. Avalanche will be able to push that too.

Lando, Duchene, EJ, Varly is a solid young core. The most important players on the team and the Avs will push that along with Staz probably. Ryan O'Reilly as good as he is, and he is good isn't a make or break player. Offensively he's still incredibly unproven and doesn't have the upside of say a Duchene.

Avalanche lose a year that they were going to lose anyways. No Lando, EJ, Downie? Forget this situation, we were *****ed from the start. They have an excuse, a legit one. Not only that but that excuse is most likely going to lead to another blue chipper that could end up having more value than Ryan. If we land a Jones, Nate, Drouin, Barkov etc. all of a sudden everything kinda changes.

If Avalanche somehow pull out a decent return for him, or even a really good one somehow? After this season, going into next you could have some happy campers. I wanted the playoffs like everybody else but I think another tank could end up paying off more than anything.
 

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I'm dumb, but isn't it interesting that Anderson, Winnik and McClement signed for less money then what we offered (according to some posters here)?? i don't know, but maybe Quincey was right and a lot of guys wanted out???

I bet they all wanted out because of ROR, and not because of management!!!

You're not that dumb.
 

Bender

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I think you hit on a good point here--my concern is that there's a serious disconnect between the scouting department and the front office. Pracey and his staff are top-notch IMO. They're the ones who told Sherman that John Mitchell would be a safe bet, and that Parenteau would be a good fit here.

My problem is that this team drafts enigmatic talents like Stewart and Wolski, and then is all shocked when that talent ends up being enigmatic. Am I mad the Avs traded Wolski? No, but with Stewart it was like they got all pissed off because he reportedly partied a little while recovering from a major injury. Oh well...these are young professional athletes seeing a lot of money, sometimes they're going to act up. So long as they don't pull the kinds of shenanigans you see in the NFL/NBA, I don't see a problem with it.

Bottom line, if you don't want the enigmatic guys, don't draft them. Just do what Nashville does and get gritty lunch pailers over and over again...of course Nashville is one of the worst offensive teams in the league because of that drafting strategy. A better idea would be to just accept the fact that it's okay to have a Stewart in your lineup so long as you have guys like Landy and Dutchy who don't ever take shifts off.

There's a lot wrong with this post.

First of all, Rick Pracey and Allan Hepple are in charge of AMATEUR scouting and not PRO scouting. So those wouldn't be the guys giving the feedback on Mitchell and Parenteau, it would be guys like Garth Joy and Terry Martin.

Second of all, it is BECAUSE the team drafted 'enigmatic talent' in the past that they CHANGED their drafting philosophy to 'talent, compete level and skill' instead of maybe just overall talent. This happened AFTER the 2008 draft (Gaunce) because at that time, Ted Hampson had just been brought in and he moved on shortly thereafter. It's been Pracey & Co. ever since. Both Wolski (2004) and Stewart (2006) were part of the old regime.

Letting O'Reilly sit to "stick it" to him and his dad sounds exactly like some bush league move this ownership would pull.

Seriously, call me naive if you want but if that's the driving motivation of our ownership/management, we are in deep ****.

No, YOU'RE right...we're really going somewhere this season!! Completely healthy, we had a slim chance of making the playoffs this year but yeah, let's trade a bunch of PICKS for immediate help so we can finish 18th!!! That's the way you remain a crappy team forever.

With the way some of you are complaining, I think you might actually be up for that.


Past precedent suggests that's exactly what they do.

What blows me away is that Lacroix is a former agent. He'd be FURIOUS if he were still an agent and a GM offered his client less than they wanted, refused to engage in good faith negotiations, and stopped returning calls when said offer was rejected.

The Avs groomed this kid for three years and just last year got a true sign of just how good he can be...and now they're willing to walk away based on principle. What a ****ing joke this organization has become.

Just stop it. Everyone knows it's a fair offer. Why should the Avs pay more than what's FAIR?

Go through the list in the past 25 years of players who held out for more money and show me which ones were actually RIGHT in doing so??? Whether it's that dirtbag YASHIN or that fat ass Keith Tkachuk, these players showed time and again that in the end, they were in fact LOSERS. They were 'team-first' POSERS only concerned about THEIR bottom line and they never won anything either.

Seriously, has there really been even ONE holdout where it's like "oh yeah, you were holding out and, in the end, YOU were right, you deserved much more"...has that EVER happened??
 
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