Zach "the awesome player" Hyman

[Paradoc]

Lets stop pretending that he wasn't very fortunate to be put on a line with Matthews and Nylander. Hyman has been gifted everything since day one.

Hyman, this year, has majority of his points without Matthews, but I think this actually proves your point.

Hyman would be better suited if he had a bunch of grinders as his linemates than with Matthews.

 

[Mr Hockey]

• Hyman ~ 5 goals /12pts ~ top forchecker/top PK"er/distractor
  
• Marner ~ 2 goals/16pts

 

[Cor]

Exactly. I never buy this argument, because we have several far more skilled "diggers" than Hyman, and Matt Martin is one of them. That should tell you all you need to know right there. Hyman isn't even that great a forechecker. He often loses puck battles and is knocked over several times a shift when he has the puck. And he has hands crafted by Medusa herself!

f***ing please

 

[IPS]

Why the **** do you keep comparing his production this year to players last season ?

It's means nothing since scoring is up league wide as well as our team and his center .

He also got a couple of freebie asts on empty net goals because of Babs throwing him out there to try to pad his stats .

Lets stop pretending that he wasn't very fortunate to be put on a line with Matthews and Nylander. Hyman has been gifted everything since day one.

Thank you. Covers my response for the most part.

I can't f***ing understand this vicious defense of Babcock overplaying Hyman and giving him so many minutes. Babcock has a fetish for these types of players, it's so obvious. I already pointed out that there's no team in the league except us who overplays the f*** out of a bottom-6 grinder and gives them prime minutes with the best offensive players.

Unfortunately I don't see it changing, in fact I bet Babcock is itching to get him on the power play. I remember him playing Hyman on 3 on 3 overtime last year, good lord was that painful to see. Why in god's name would you play a dump-and-chase style player for 3 on 3? Some of the things Babcock does I swear to god.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Kapanen - Gauthier - Hyman would be an awesome 4th line, if not the best in the league. Hell pretty much any LWer like Leo/Leivo/Sosh/Martin would look good there.

 

[sommervr]

You guys don't see the big picture. Hyman brings intangibles that reach well outside the hockey rink.

Here's a hint: The biggest power player behind the leafs resurgence isn't Brendan Shanahan.

Hyman is here to stay and he might not even be the only one. This is a very good thing.

ps. Please throw us a bone and give us a real hockey announcer.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Why the **** do you keep comparing his production this year to players last season ?

It's means nothing since scoring is up league wide as well as our team and his center .

He also got a couple of freebie asts on empty net goals because of Babs throwing him out there to try to pad his stats .

Because I'm talking about pace and using last year as an example of what that pace means. With huge varieties in games played, and tons of unsustainable paces in such a small sample size, using raw numbers for this season is less telling. Should be quite obvious, no?

And once again I find myself repeating arguments over and over. Scoring may be up, but that means that a pace that is average for top line players might just be a bit below average for one instead. That's still good.

Hyman doesn't have a single point off an empty net goal as far as I know.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Lets stop pretending that he wasn't very fortunate to be put on a line with Matthews and Nylander. Hyman has been gifted everything since day one.

I'm not. Of course he is. But the topic is whether or not Hyman should play next to Matthews, and the fact that he actually performs and produces at a really high level for a complementary player as a complementary player is of key importance to the topic.

How someone performs in a role is quite important to whether they should play in that role, I'd say.

Thank you. Covers my response for the most part.

I can't ****ing understand this vicious defense of Babcock overplaying Hyman and giving him so many minutes. Babcock has a fetish for these types of players, it's so obvious. I already pointed out that there's no team in the league except us who overplays the **** out of a bottom-6 grinder and gives them prime minutes with the best offensive players.

Unfortunately I don't see it changing, in fact I bet Babcock is itching to get him on the power play. I remember him playing Hyman on 3 on 3 overtime last year, good lord was that painful to see. Why in god's name would you play a dump-and-chase style player for 3 on 3? Some of the things Babcock does I swear to god.

You can't understand it because you have made up your mind and don't listen to counter-arguments. Besides, nobody has been saying Hyman needs to play lots of minutes. What has been defended is Hyman next to Matthews, and that's because he's been highly effective in that role, whatever you think about him.

Babcock has a system that often puts two skilled players with a complementary player, he always has. And it's been a system that has worked well. He's got a ton out of his rosters historically, and he is getting a ton out of that line now as well.

As for what other teams do. You are arguing that we shouldn't play Hyman because other teams generally put a skilled guy as their third piece on their top line. Meanwhile, Hyman is on a pace that would lead him to outscore the majority of these third pieces at even strength. Again, his pace would put him around #50-60 in the league. That means that there's not even two players per team that is producing better, not to mention on the actual top line.

Yet he is a problem, apparently.

All your posts about what a scrub Hyman is, attacking posters with different views, and writing degrading things about Babcock's relationship with Hyman just shows that you are not even close to being reasonable on the subject.

 

[Mess]

• Hyman ~ 5 goals /12pts ~ top forchecker/top PK"er/distractor
  
• Marner ~ 2 goals/16pts

If anyone would have taken a bet that claimed Hyman after 25 games would have more goals 5 than Nylander 4 or Marner 2, they would be a rich man today as Leaf fans would have said that is ridiculous to even suggest, that a no talent guy like Zach would score at a higher pace than Leafs young guns.

Does anyone care that Nylander and Marner have +4 more points (16) (but with heavy PP time) than Hyman (12) (with ZERO PP time)?.

This either shows how well Hyman is performing as per his expectations or how bad Nylander/Marner are doing in comparison to theirs.

Not sure why Fans complain endlessly about Hyman who seems to do everything asked and performing as expected in his role. Why they don't understand why its Nylander/Marner/Brown rotating In/Out as Babcock tries to find a RW that works well with Hyman and Matthews?.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Yeah Hyman on the first line is debatable, but the flack the guy gets is unreal

Babcock is getting heat too, but before long, and alot will depend on how the season turns out, Lou isn't above criticism. The Bozak/JVR situations, the D as currently constructed, guys NHL ready but not able to get into the lineup......

 

[hotpaws]

Because I'm talking about pace and using last year as an example of what that pace means. With huge varieties in games played, and tons of unsustainable paces in such a small sample size, using raw numbers for this season is less telling. Should be quite obvious, no?

And once again I find myself repeating arguments over and over. Scoring may be up, but that means that a pace that is average for top line players might just be a bit below average for one instead. That's still good.

Hyman doesn't have a single point off an empty net goal as far as I know.

so tons of players with "unsustainable paces" but you're sure Hyman's pace is sustainable ?

last 15 games 1g - 5a - 6pts , 33 pt pace
first 10 games 4g -2a - 6pts , 49 pt pace

he has 2 points on empty net goals and his pace has dropped significantly the last 15 games , if you take away his empty net points he's be on pace for 33 pts

it's obvious you used his pace this year and compared it to last year in some delusional attempt to prove he is a 1st line player

 

[hotpaws]

If anyone would have taken a bet that claimed Hyman after 25 games would have more goals 5 than Nylander 4 or Marner 2, they would be a rich man today as Leaf fans would have said that is ridiculous to even suggest, that a no talent guy like Zach would score at a higher pace than Leafs young guns.

Does anyone care that Nylander and Marner have +4 more points (16) (but with heavy PP time) than Hyman (12) (with ZERO PP time)?.

This either shows how well Hyman is performing as per his expectations or how bad Nylander/Marner are doing in comparison to theirs.

Not sure why Fans complain endlessly about Hyman who seems to do everything asked and performing as expected in his role. Why they don't understand why its Nylander/Marner/Brown rotating In/Out as Babcock tries to find a RW that works well with Hyman and Matthews?.

maybe just maybe Babs should rotate Marleau/Brown/Levio in Hymans spot to see who'd work well with Mathews-Nylander/Marner

 

[GoonieFace]

so tons of players with "unsustainable paces" but you're sure Hyman's pace is sustainable ?

last 14 games 1g - 5a - 6pts , 35 pt pace
first 10 games 4g -2a - 6pts , 49 pt pace

he has 2 points on empty net goals and his pace has dropped significantly the last 14 games , if you take away his empty net points he's be on pace for 34 pts

it's obvious you used his pace this year and compared it to last year in some delusional attempt to prove he is a 1st line player

edit - sorry i just noticed TSN didn't include last nights game in his log , the extra game would drop his pace lower

So using your logic, Nylander and Marner should be on the 4th line as well. Points are not everything, there is nothing wrong with having Hyman on Matthews line. All is well, they are winning and Matthews has not spontaneously combusted with Hyman on his wing. Leave the line-up decisions to the experts, and you can whine about while you set your fantasy hockey line-up in NHL 18.

 

[hotpaws]

So using your logic, Nylander and Marner should be on the 4th line as well. Points are not everything, there is nothing wrong with having Hyman on Matthews line. All is well, they are winning and Matthews has not spontaneously combusted with Hyman on his wing. Leave the line-up decisions to the experts, and you can whine about while you set your fantasy hockey line-up in NHL 18.

so why are you on a hockey forum if you're incapable of forming your own opinion about the team ?

shouldn't you be sitting at home waving your blue and white pom poms since you have nothing to add to a discussion other than to regurgitate the company line ?

did you also think Wilson/RC and Horacheck were perfect coach's?

 

[Nithoniniel]

so tons of players with "unsustainable paces" but you're sure Hyman's pace is sustainable ?

Yes. Nothing unsustainable about it.

he has 2 points on empty net goals and his pace has dropped significantly the last 15 games , if you take away his empty net points he's be on pace for 33 pts

That's usually what happens when you start to take away points. Which is only ever done to fit agendas.

it's obvious you used his pace this year and compared it to last year in some delusional attempt to prove he is a 1st line player

No, it's not. It's just logical. It's how pace always is used. You always compare it to history because you are converting to full season numbers, and a comparison with anything but full seasons make absolutely no sense.

And why would it be delusional and not accurate? If you score at a rate that normally makes you a first liner, how is that not great production? Because scoring rates are up? That's a simple adjustment to the numbers and still peg him at that level, albeit lower.

If you have such a huge problem with pace, let's just look at raw numbers. Hyman is tied for 63rd in the league among forwards this year in even strength production. First line numbers. Such a huge issue, right?

What is obvious is that you suddenly have a huge problem with using pace and comparing it in a historical context because you want to dismiss the numbers since they absolutely disprove your notion that Hyman is an unskilled fourth liner who is detrimental to his line, and anybody could do better at his spot.

 

[hotpaws]

Yes. Nothing unsustainable about it.


That's usually what happens when you start to take away points. Which is only ever done to fit agendas.


No, it's not. It's just logical. It's how pace always is used. You always compare it to history because you are converting to full season numbers, and a comparison with anything but full seasons make absolutely no sense.

And why would it be delusional and not accurate? If you score at a rate that normally makes you a first liner, how is that not great production? Because scoring rates are up? That's a simple adjustment to the numbers and still peg him at that level, albeit lower.

If you have such a huge problem with pace, let's just look at raw numbers. Hyman is tied for 63rd in the league among forwards this year in even strength production. First line numbers. Such a huge issue, right?

What is obvious is that you suddenly have a huge problem with using pace and comparing it in a historical context because you want to dismiss the numbers since they absolutely disprove your notion that Hyman is an unskilled fourth liner who is detrimental to his line, and anybody could do better at his spot.

Hyman's pace has already dropped from his quick start , not surprisingly you ignored that part of my post because it doesn't fit your "agenda".

how about we agree to disagree and i'll believe Hyman is a no talent 4th line energy player and you can believe he's a skilled 1st liner

 

[Nithoniniel]

Hyman's pace has already dropped from his quick start , not surprisingly you ignored that part of my post because it doesn't fit your "agenda".

how about we agree to disagree and i'll believe Hyman is a no talent 4th line energy player and you can believe he's a skilled 1st liner

We were talking about whether it was sustainable. Fluctuations in production happens all the time. There's nothing in his season numbers that is not sustainable. Maybe the 50 point pace he had to start was, but the 40 point pace he has now isn't.

What agenda am I supposed to have? I don't care more about Hyman than any other Leaf. I'm not married to seeing him on the first line. My preferred lineups doesn't have him in that spot. All I'm doing is point out factual inaccuracies, and address the weak arguments you and others raise. I do the same when people get some fix idea and trash Nylander, Marner, JVR, or Gardiner.

I don't believe he's a skilled first line player. I think he's a hard working complementary player who plays his role well.

Man this is just like talking with Interactif. Can't dismiss or counter my arguments, so you play the "agree to disagree" card. If you want to ignore actual facts and believe what you want to believe, what do I care?

 

[Liminality]

It's funny how people always want Hyman to fail and be thrown off the team instead of rooting for him to improve more.

I'd laugh if he does end up improving his offensive ability by next year.

 

[Bluelines]

Because I'm talking about pace and using last year as an example of what that pace means. With huge varieties in games played, and tons of unsustainable paces in such a small sample size, using raw numbers for this season is less telling. Should be quite obvious, no?

And once again I find myself repeating arguments over and over. Scoring may be up, but that means that a pace that is average for top line players might just be a bit below average for one instead. That's still good.

Hyman doesn't have a single point off an empty net goal as far as I know.

I'm agreeing with what you are saying, to hotpaws point about scoring begin up league wide. Is scoring up on the Leafs? I keep hearing about players on the Leafs who haven't scored in 8 games 10 games, 15 games... if scoring is down on the Leafs but Hyman is producing at a good rate wouldn't that support the suggestion that Hyman is scoring his fair share? Wouldn't the scoring of the Leafs as a team be more relevant to Hyman's production, than the league wide stats?

 

[Mess]

maybe just maybe Babs should rotate Marleau/Brown/Levio in Hymans spot to see who'd work well with Mathews-Nylander/Marner

Babcock (as do I agree with him) that RW is the problem, where you seem to believe LW is the lines problem.

Hyman is doing his job as expected (while not having top line talent), while Marner/Nylander are not doing their jobs and performing below expectation (while having top line talent)..

Lines Roles and Responsibilites
Hyman (the worker) is aggressively forechecking, winning board battles, crashing the crease, screening the goalie and occupying the defense, and add secondary offense when posible. ... CHECK !!!
Matthews (the finisher) is potting his goals when he gets opportunities, provided by the different roles his wingers play for him, while playing a 200 ft 2-way game. CHECK !!!!
Nylander/Marner (the playmakers) role is to work with Matthews creatively generating offense together playing off each other talents while time and space is being created by the unsung player on their line. ... NON CHECK !!!!

The playmaker role of the trio is the one that struggles the most and the reason the coach attempts to fix what is broken trying to find a player that completes that role best, while leaving the ones that aren't broken and fulfilling theirs alone, when attempting to find a fully functioning trio.

Its all about roles and responsibilities and fulfilling them as per the coach.. Hyman's primary job isn't to score (as that is considered bonus) as he unselfishly does the heavy lifting so his linemates don't have to. Fans that want to swap out Hyman for a player that might score more at the expense of the other aspects are with all due respect missing the entire point of his role and what he is asked to do.

 

[hotpaws]

We were talking about whether it was sustainable. Fluctuations in production happens all the time. There's nothing in his season numbers that is not sustainable. Maybe the 50 point pace he had to start was, but the 40 point pace he has now isn't.

What agenda am I supposed to have? I don't care more about Hyman than any other Leaf. I'm not married to seeing him on the first line. My preferred lineups doesn't have him in that spot. All I'm doing is point out factual inaccuracies, and address the weak arguments you and others raise. I do the same when people get some fix idea and trash Nylander, Marner, JVR, or Gardiner.

I don't believe he's a skilled first line player. I think he's a hard working complementary player who plays his role well.

Man this is just like talking with Interactif. Can't dismiss or counter my arguments, so you play the "agree to disagree" card. If you want to ignore actual facts and believe what you want to believe, what do I care?

so you don't believe he's a skilled first line player and don't want him playing with Mathews but you just felt the need to point out factual inaccuracies and address weak arguments? strange

You don't have any arguments other than to say his point pace so far this year 5 on 5 would make him a 1st line player . You ignore that his production is almost totally dependent on his linemates as well as the mins the coach gifts him and you never explained why a 1st line player is never used on the pp . Also his vaunted early season pace has normalized and is quite similar to what he produced last year .

you also ignore his limitations due to his lack of skill and instead keep regurgitating that he plays his role well as if he could do anything else other than what's been asked of him

 

[hotpaws]

Babcock (as do I agree with him) that RW is the problem, where you seem to believe LW is the lines problem.

Hyman is doing his job as expected (while not having top line talent), while Marner/Nylander are not doing their jobs and performing below expectation (while having top line talent)..

Lines Roles and Responsibilites
Hyman (the worker) is aggressively forechecking, winning board battles, crashing the crease, screening the goalie and occupying the defense, and add secondary offense when posible. ... CHECK !!!
Matthews (the finisher) is potting his goals when he gets opportunities, provided by the different roles his wingers play for him, while playing a 200 ft 2-way game. CHECK !!!!
Nylander/Marner (the playmakers) role is to work with Matthews creatively generating offense together playing off each other talents while time and space is being created by the unsung player on their line. ... NON CHECK !!!!

The playmaker role of the trio is the one that struggles the most and the reason the coach attempts to fix what is broken trying to find a player that completes that role best, while leaving the ones that aren't broken and fulfilling theirs alone, when attempting to find a fully functioning trio.

Its all about roles and responsibilities and fulfilling them as per the coach.. Hyman's primary job isn't to score (as that is considered bonus) as he unselfishly does the heavy lifting so his linemates don't have to. Fans that want to swap out Hyman for a player that might score more at the expense of the other aspects are with all due respect missing the entire point of his role and what he is asked to do.

maybe the problem is with the digger since while he tries hard can't actually get the puck to the playmaker who in turn can't feed the scorer

and here's a crazy thought that just occurred to me , how about Babs tries another player in Hyman's spot for a few games just to actually see who the real problem is ? i know i know it's nuts to think Babs (triple gold coach) mvp may be the problem but considering the line has stopped producing what could be the harm of trying something different?

 

[Field of Dreams]

• Hyman ~ 5 goals /12pts ~ top forchecker/top PK"er/distractor
  
• Marner ~ 2 goals/16pts

Also has more goals than Nylander

 

[Nithoniniel]

so you don't believe he's a skilled first line player and don't want him playing with Mathews but you just felt the need to point out factual inaccuracies and address weak arguments? strange

Is it so hard to believe that I could have other preferences but still be fine with Hyman there? Not everything needs to be black and white.

You don't have any arguments other than to say his point pace so far this year 5 on 5 would make him a 1st line player .

Yes, my arguments for why a player is fine on a line hinges on his actual performance there. All I care about on the topic of whether or not Hyman should be that complementary third player on that line is how he does in that role.

It's hilarious that you try to dismiss the weight of my arguments considering line performance, player performance, league comparisons, expert opinions on the topic, and the coach himself is on my side. Meanwhile, the only argument of worth you've brought is that he's got two empty net points, which is a valid point.

You ignore that his production is almost totally dependent on his linemates as well as the mins the coach gifts him

No I don't. I'm well aware of that. I've said that for his minutes and as a complementary player, he produces at a pace that is quite clearly top line level. That means that a lot of these vaunted skilled players on top lines around the league, in similar situations and with similar minutes, actually produce less than him.

If he did what I said in less minutes and without great linemates, that would be an argument that he's an elite even strength player. That's not what is being argued here. I'm saying he is a good complementary player, the stats support that, and he compares well against other complementary players on top lines across the league. All of whom also get minutes and high-end linemates.

you never explained why a 1st line player is never used on the pp

Why do I care if he's on the PP or not? How is that relevant to whether we should play Hyman on the top line. Should we ignore how he performs in that role, and instead judge who should play where at even strength on how they are used on the PP?

I'm not arguing that he is a first line player that should be on the PP. You really seem to struggle with reading comprehension. I'm arguing that he is fine in the role he's given, and that he's producing just as well as you could ever want in that spot.

Also his vaunted early season pace has normalized and is quite similar to what he produced last year .

No, his pace as of late is similar to last year. His pace over the season is quite a bit higher. You have now gone from wanting to take away 2 points from him, to wanting to ignore his first 40% of the season. But you are not being unreasonable here, right?

you also ignore his limitations due to his lack of skill and instead keep regurgitating that he plays his role well as if he could do anything else other than what's been asked of him

I don't ignore any limitations. I'm talking about end results, any limitations are included in that. If he was highly skilled, he'd naturally be even higher in the rankings for even strength production.

 

[IPS]

so you don't believe he's a skilled first line player and don't want him playing with Mathews but you just felt the need to point out factual inaccuracies and address weak arguments? strange

You don't have any arguments other than to say his point pace so far this year 5 on 5 would make him a 1st line player . You ignore that his production is almost totally dependent on his linemates as well as the mins the coach gifts him and you never explained why a 1st line player is never used on the pp . Also his vaunted early season pace has normalized and is quite similar to what he produced last year .

you also ignore his limitations due to his lack of skill and instead keep regurgitating that he plays his role well as if he could do anything else other than what's been asked of him

He also appeared to disagree with my Hagelin and Kunitz comparisons. Was pretty adamant on Hyman being better offensively and did a straight across comparison (which is pretty disingenuous because Hagelin and Kuntiz never played with the best ES scorer literally all year long, Kunitz didn't get much time at all with Crosby last year). Call me crazy but Hyman looks very similar to Hagelin or Kunitz - hard forechecker with minimal offensive ability. And it's not even like Sullivan doesn't use them with his best offensive guys - he does to an extent at times - he just knows how to manage his ice time and get his most effective guys offensively playing the most ES minutes.

Sullivan has put the book out on how to manage this type of team, and he obviously knows how to make it very effective. If Sullivan was coaching our team there's no way in hell he's giving Hyman so many minutes. I think some folks just refuse to believe we have a stubborn coach who's prone to a stupid bias towards Hyman-type players which in turn leads to not using his lineup as effectively as it could be used. These are the exact types of sheep who would've defended Sutter putting Dwight King with Anze Kopitar or Quenville putting Michael Handzus with Patrick Kane.