Your Plan Going Forward

[The Winter Soldier]

Not enough depth? You trade Bozak for anything good. Kadri can stay as his rounding out will make him a good to great 2nd or 3rd line center who can play on the 1st line. Our top 10 draft pick should be a center and you hope Him and Nylander and Kadri can provide a lethal 1-2-3 punch. Even if Nylander isn't ready next year, Kadri as the number 1 for 2015-2016 is OK with me. He might really emerge with the added responsibility. Someone like Holland, Santorelli or a UFA stop gap can play as the 2nd line center.

If we can get a huge return for Bozak, we deal him. Just like for Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Dion, Lupul, Clarkson.

Bozak would be a great fit as the #3C on this team if we can get 2, Top 6 C's that would make us contenders. He is still paid as a support player at 4M per. Core players usually make 5M plus. 4M for an elite #3C is cheap since quality down the middle is vital.

There is no Center on this team that is worth 5-6M per. Certainly Kadri is not worth 5M. He cannot bring us to the promised land as a Top 6C that can compete against Kopitar and Carter.

Ideally let's say we can add a Staal and draft an Eichel. Have Bozak slot in as an elite #3C at 4M. Build up the middle. This would be much better than what we have had since Sundin.

So while I am open to moving anyone to rebuild this team. The best candidates for meaningful change are:

Kessel
Dion
Kadri
JVR
Franson
Lupul(if the return is good)
Clarkson(if he can be moved)

at the head of the list. Build up the middle.

We need 2, 2 way Centers that are great on contending teams. We have seen mediocrity up the middle in the top 6C roles for years now. Ie. Connolly, Grabovski, Kadri, Lombardi, Stajan. Bozak our best, but not good enough. Until this is addressed, we will always be a mediocre team.

 

[Trapper]

vs your innovation of "just get better players yo"

Isn't every team doing this? Where you get them (position wise) can make a difference. We can get a better player than Booth/Ashton but does that make us a contender. Where you build your strength will equal your success. If wingers are the least important position, if you only build there are you strong?

 

[The CyNick]

Isn't every team doing this? Where you get them (position wise) can make a difference. We can get a better player than Booth/Ashton but does that make us a contender. Where you build your strength will equal your success. If wingers are the least important position, if you only build there are you strong?

Burke wasn't offered a top line centre for the package he got Kessel for. You do realize that right?

Burke also wasn't offered a #1 centre for Luke Schenn, you realize that right?

You acquire assets where you can. You keep building on those assets until you have the right mix. We don't have the right mix today. so the building continues.

everyone in the organization wants the team to be better, but it's hilarious to read things like "just trade whatever it takes to get a #1 C and D". As though there are these offers left and right of #1 centres or D for players on our roster. It's adorable how your mind works.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Fire Randy and trade Bozak while promoting Kadri and Holland

easy fixes

Nice basic concept. I think that's a starting point. You think Kadri could cover enough ice to defend for both wingers too? I don't want Kadri near Kessel. Maybe we could package Kessel and Bozak in a deal.

Really though its hard to find a starting point. You did.

 

[Durkin67]

If we can get a huge return for Bozak, we deal him. Just like for Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Dion, Lupul, Clarkson.

Bozak would be a great fit as the #3C on this team if we can get 2, Top 6 C's that would make us contenders. He is still paid as a support player at 4M per. Core players usually make 5M plus. 4M for an elite #3C is cheap since quality down the middle is vital.

There is no Center on this team that is worth 5-6M per. Certainly Kadri is not worth 5M. He cannot bring us to the promised land as a Top 6C that can compete against Kopitar and Carter.

Ideally let's say we can add a Staal and draft an Eichel. Have Bozak slot in as an elite #3C at 4M. Build up the middle. This would be much better than what we have had since Sundin.

So while I am open to moving anyone to rebuild this team. The best candidates for meaningful change are:

Kessel
Dion
Kadri
JVR
Franson
Lupul(if the return is good)
Clarkson(if he can be moved)

at the head of the list. Build up the middle.

We need 2, 2 way Centers that are great on contending teams. We have seen mediocrity up the middle in the top 6C roles for years now. Ie. Connolly, Grabovski, Kadri, Lombardi, Stajan. Bozak our best, but not good enough. Until this is addressed, we will always be a mediocre team.

Oxymoron of the day: ELITE 3C

You've just removed the top two point producers, your captain, and the top producing defenseman, a 6'5'' right shot who has been very impressive on the top pairing from your lineup so you can roll the dice on a franchise defender falling from the heavens and hitting the ground running.

Is this a hockey forum or the comedy network?

 

[Peace Frog]

It may not take a whole lot of change to make a big difference to this team. I feel a coaching change could make a big, positive impact to the existing player personnel. That is the first move I would make, and I would make it asap. Give the new coach time to implement his new system and then re-evaluate the on-ice product.

If changes are still needed (and I suspect there would be), the trade deadline would be my next period of moves. I would look at moves involving Phaneuf, Franson, and Kessel. These would be my three major trade pieces, not to say there wouldn't be others. I would focus on bringing in more complete players who have a high compete level all over the ice.

The individual talent might not be as high as what we shipped out, but the overall talent of the team would be of better quality. It would give a good coach with a sound system, a team that he can get the most out of. A team with an identity of strong work ethic, tenacity, and commitment to winning. That's what Leafs fans want out of their squad and what they deserve to get.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Oxymoron of the day: ELITE 3C

You've just removed the top two point producers, your captain, and the top producing defenseman, a 6'5'' right shot who has been very impressive on the top pairing from your lineup so you can roll the dice on a franchise defender falling from the heavens and hitting the ground running.

Is this a hockey forum or the comedy network?

Well if you can find me another #3C at 4M per that has the stats Bozak has, to prove me wrong. Then you might have a case. Do you not agree he is playing 2 slots higher than where he should be? It's not his fault there is no one better on the team. This is why we need to get 2, contending top 6 C's if the plan is to move fwd.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

There is frustration in this thread big time. Its because of how much of a challenge it has become by Nonis letting it go on this long. Firing Nonis would be the best first move. I really seen enough of his style.

Just fire him and the coach too would settle fans beefs for the most part. Its the players that are dragging both down though. That's not lost on me one bit. Nonis had made his one bed by loyalty or lack of savvy you'd decided that for yourselves by now.

I say its lack of savvy.

 

[Trapper]

Burke wasn't offered a top line centre for the package he got Kessel for. You do realize that right?

Burke also wasn't offered a #1 centre for Luke Schenn, you realize that right?

You acquire assets where you can. You keep building on those assets until you have the right mix. We don't have the right mix today. so the building continues.

everyone in the organization wants the team to be better, but it's hilarious to read things like "just trade whatever it takes to get a #1 C and D". As though there are these offers left and right of #1 centres or D for players on our roster. It's adorable how your mind works.

The building is always ongoing.
If Kessel is used to acquire those assest for the right mix so be it. Might not be the 1C or D but might be for a couple of players in other positions. Same with Bozak,Phaneuf or anyone.
Your plan is the same. Nobody is really untouchable if the right mix can be acquired.
The plan is to get better no matter how you word it.

 

[Pi]

Well if you can find me another #3C at 4M per that has the stats Bozak has, to prove me wrong. Then you might have a case. Do you not agree he is playing 2 slots higher than where he should be? It's not his fault there is no one better on the team. This is why we need to get 2, contending top 6 C's if the plan is to move fwd.

Why do you choose to ignore ALL stats against Bozak? Are you a part of his family?

Bozak is not good defensively. He's an absolute train wreck.

Firing Carlyle and getting rid of Bozak would be the first thing I'd do.

Then I'd look to offers for Kessel to round out depth. I want more players with Santorelli's drive and less players like Bozak who is just passive in every way.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Well if you can find me another #3C at 4M per that has the stats Bozak has, to prove me wrong. Then you might have a case. Do you not agree he is playing 2 slots higher than where he should be? It's not his fault there is no one better on the team. This is why we need to get 2, contending top 6 C's if the plan is to move fwd.

Bozak sucks bud. Not all his fault he is the worst possession first line in the History of adv stats but he is right there. He is not the top line center we need and neither is Kadri. We need to move him.

 

[RLF]

First, I fire Carlyle, not because it is all his fault, but he is not getting through to the players. First message sent.

Second, trade one of the big ticket, offensive minded players who wouldn't buy into team play and could fetch a good return to make sure the players realize this is also on them. Second message sent.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Why do you choose to ignore ALL stats against Bozak? Are you a part of his family?

Bozak is not good defensively. He's an absolute train wreck.

Firing Carlyle and getting rid of Bozak would be the first thing I'd do.

Then I'd look to offers for Kessel to round out depth. I want more players with Santorelli's drive and less players like Bozak who is just passive in every way.

Nope, I said anyone on this team can be moved. I just don't see us finding a better #3C at 4M per than Bozak.

We need to fill core spots. #1C, #2C, #1D, #1G. Better 2 way wingers.

Bozak at 4M would give us a mismatch on almost any other team at #3C if we could find 2 stud Centers.

I don't want him playing in a top 6 role.

Team>player

 

[Durkin67]

Well if you can find me another #3C at 4M per that has the stats Bozak has, to prove me wrong. Then you might have a case. Do you not agree he is playing 2 slots higher than where he should be? It's not his fault there is no one better on the team. This is why we need to get 2, contending top 6 C's if the plan is to move fwd.

Bozak in the 2 or 3 hole is great. Calling him elite and 3C in the same breath is about as logical as the term "peace missile" or "jumbo shrimp".


Re 1 and 2C I have been banging the drum for the Staals and ROR for months. Aside from the obvious improvement over the current roster, the influence it would have on the bench and in the dressing room to replace the high price floaters who are afraid to muck it up with character players would be huge.

Gutting the D like you suggest in order to draft a franchise D, who would be required to step in right away and play heavy minutes is sheer recklessness. I wish I could be gentler about it, but that's just silly.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Bozak in the 2 or 3 hole is great. Calling him elite and 3C in the same breath is about as logical as the term "peace missile" or "jumbo shrimp".


Re 1 and 2C I have been banging the drum for the Staals and ROR for months. Aside from the obvious improvement over the current roster, the influence it would have on the bench and in the dressing room to replace the high price floaters who are afraid to muck it up with character players would be huge.

Gutting the D like you suggest in order to draft a franchise D, who would be required to step in right away and play heavy minutes is sheer recklessness. I wish I could be gentler about it, but that's just silly.

He's played as a #1C the past 2 years, his stats with defensively challenged, CF% challenged wingers, abeit good offensively has been good.

If he were placed in a #3C behind 2 better Centers we have not had since Sundin and Gilmour. Away from top D pairings and players.

Why wouldn't he be an elite #3C. He is paid as one at only 4M per. It should be a piece of cake for Bozak.

 

[The CyNick]

The building is always ongoing.
If Kessel is used to acquire those assest for the right mix so be it. Might not be the 1C or D but might be for a couple of players in other positions. Same with Bozak,Phaneuf or anyone.
Your plan is the same. Nobody is really untouchable if the right mix can be acquired.
The plan is to get better no matter how you word it.

So you see the fallacy of suggesting we can use our existing pieces to get a #1 C and D. Good, there is hope yet.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

So you see the fallacy of suggesting we can use our existing pieces to get a #1 C and D. Good, there is hope yet.

What is the alternative? Every thing is copacetic with this team. We can win a cup with Kadri, Holland, or Bozak as our top 2 centres.

I suggest to you, this is a pipe dream.

 

[Trapper]

So you see the fallacy of suggesting we can use our existing pieces to get a #1 C and D. Good, there is hope yet.

I see your plan is flawless.
Just get better yo.
Its simple and subtle, not sure why it hasnt been tried.
You just beat the Kobayashi Maru.

It's like you said, if the plan is to get the right mix, surely acquiring assets to get those players that can be a 1C and D are part of the equation. You just said it.

 

[Durkin67]

He's played as a #1C the past 2 years, his stats with defensively challenged, CF% challenged wingers, abeit good offensively has been good.

If he were placed in a #3C behind 2 better Centers we have not had since Sundin and Gilmour. Away from top D pairings and players.

Why wouldn't he be an elite #3C. He is paid as one at only 4M per. It should be a piece of cake for Bozak.

Im just loving the term ELITE 3C

Are there Elite bottom pairing D men and ELITE backup goalies as well?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Im just loving the term ELITE 3C

Are there Elite bottom pairing D men and ELITE backup goalies as well?

Want to address the post? If Leafs actually finally got 2 competent top 6C's to contend. Name me #3C's in the league better statistically than Bozak since he signed for 4M per?

Yes, elite 3C's. You ever hear of J Staal before Pitt could not afford him?

 

[Menzinger]

Well if you can find me another #3C at 4M per that has the stats Bozak has, to prove me wrong. Then you might have a case. Do you not agree he is playing 2 slots higher than where he should be? It's not his fault there is no one better on the team. This is why we need to get 2, contending top 6 C's if the plan is to move fwd.

The problem with this is that Bozak hasn't been used as a #3 C - he's been gifted prime playing time, and two of the most offensively gifted wingers in the league. He simply won't be able to produce anywhere near his current season's production rates as a #3C - and will likely even perform well below his career norm of around 40-49 points per season (with less icetime and inferior linemates). At best, he'd be an average third line centre, making over 4 million a year - which is an overpayment.

I think you're dead wrong about Kadri too: if the team is going to rebuild, it is simply illogical to move out a centre whose under 25, and has very favorable comparisons in terms of 5v5 production (the most important kind there is), and possession. The stats clearly show he can absolutely be a valuable top six centre for the team, and to claim with such certainty otherwise seems to be nothing more than conjecture. Unless a team offers a freakish overpayment for him, he clearly should be part of the team's plans moving ahead.

 

[Durkin67]

Want to address the post? If Leafs actually finally got 2 competent top 6C's to contend. Name me #3C's in the league better statistically than Bozak since he signed for 4M per?

Yes, elite 3C's. You ever hear of J Staal before Pitt could not afford him?

I addressed it. And J Staal was only a 3C in PITT because he was behind two of the best players in the entire world on the depth chart. Don't compare Staal and Bozak and expect to be taken seriously. Staal isn't a 3C.

An elite player is a player possessing a highly specialised set of skills not commonly found across the league. 3C talent is COMMON, and by the very definition, anything but elite.

As I said, Bozak in the 2 or 3 hole is fine, depending on who you stick him with. I'd like to see him with another opportunist like Kozun, and a shift disturber like Komarov as an experiment, in a line that leverages Leo's ability to throw opponents off, Bozak's active stick in the neutral zone, and Kozun's speed and net drive.

I see some fairly effective secondary scoring possibilities there, as well as opportunity to mess with the opposition's top 6.

Care to address your plan to gut the D core and pray to the hockey gods for a franchise D prospect to magically appear and play 25 minutes a night right out of the gate?

 

[htpwn]

The time to make drastic changes was last off-season. The team had a third historic collapse in as many years. It was ripe for change, the team had nearly unanimous support from the fan base to make change, and yet they choose to stand pat. They even kept the Coach, claiming that Carlyle should not have to take the blame for the players collapse.

Yet, if the players were to blame, none of the team's moves suggested that was the case. Dion Phaneuf is still around, JVR is still around, Phil Kessel is still around, none of the key players changed. It's great that you swapped out Kulemin for Santorelli, as if the players making under $3 million are expected to be the difference makers, not the players making north of $5 million.

What to do moving forward? The obvious thing is to fire the Coach, first and foremost. Whether you think he's to blame or not, it's a zero-risk move. If that doesn't right the ship, which I'm doubtful it will, then trades need to be made. The three specific players I look at are Tyler Bozak, Joffrey Lupul, and Dion Phaneuf. I'd also shop Kessel but the return would have to be significant.

All-in-All, not a good situation Dave Nonis has put this team in, and not something that's going to be easily fixed. Ideally you want a Rudy Gay-type deal, one trade of a significant asset that fixes the franchise's problems, but that seems unlikely. Rebuilding isn't much of an option, at least with Bernier in net. The best you can hope for is a massive retool, where core players are swapped out, and see where that brings you.

 

[WilliamNylander]

Bozak is very good IF YOU CAN SHELTER HIM. If he was a 3C on a Chicago or LA where he plays really easy minutes, he would do great.

The problem is he cannot handle top competition or even the other team's 2nd/3rd lines on some nights. He's an excellent finisher (maybe the best breakaway finisher in the entire league?) but he generates a very very small amount of chances, which makes it not worth it for a team like the leafs

 

[Durkin67]

The time to make drastic changes was last off-season. The team had a third historic collapse in as many years. It was ripe for change, the team had nearly unanimous support from the fan base to make change, and yet they choose to stand pat. They even kept the Coach, claiming that Carlyle should not have to take the blame for the players collapse.

Yet, if the players were to blame, none of the team's moves suggested that was the case. Dion Phaneuf is still around, JVR is still around, Phil Kessel is still around, none of the key players changed. It's great that you swapped out Kulemin for Santorelli, as if the players making under $3 million are expected to be the difference makers, not the players making north of $5 million.

What to do moving forward? The obvious thing is to fire the Coach, first and foremost. Whether you think he's to blame or not, it's a zero-risk move. If that doesn't right the ship, which I'm doubtful it will, then trades need to be made. The three specific players I look at are Tyler Bozak, Joffrey Lupul, and Dion Phaneuf. I'd also shop Kessel but the return would have to be significant.

All-in-All, not a good situation Dave Nonis has put this team in, and not something that's going to be easily fixed. Ideally you want a Rudy Gay-type deal, one trade of a significant asset that fixes the franchise's problems, but that seems unlikely. Rebuilding isn't much of an option, at least with Bernier in net. The best you can hope for is a massive retool, where core players are swapped out, and see where that brings you.

Well articulated, and I agree in part. What made the timing bad for a massive retool or rebuild was the arrival of Shannahan, who required opportunity to examine the organisation top to bottom, change some of the philosophy in terms of their approach to engineering a competitive team, i.e.: creating a bottom 6 that would absorb some of the offensive responsibility, stabilise the back end with some veteran presence (Robidas, Polak) and gauge Kadri's development as a complete player.

Before sending the coach and GM packing, he had to give them opportunity to right the ship by giving them some better tools.

I suspect RC gets the axe based on the fact that the team isn't listening. They are practically begging these guys to play a more complete game but it is falling on deaf ears. A coaching change will give them a temporary shot of enthusiasm and extra effort, but it won't matter in the long run if they continually default to their lazy habits.

I agree with the massive retool. The culture appears to be one of entitlement coupled with a cockiness that believes it can outscore all the defensive warts. Kadri bragging about how they don't need too many chances to bury a team indicates little desire to play the right way and compete for pucks. It suggests they think they can score at will against any team in the league, details be damned. Not a fan of this attitude.