Prospect Info: With the 21st Overall Pick the Rangers Select Filip Chytil

[Amazing Kreiderman]

NA-bias then, if you want to go there

I don't want to say that, but I do think sometimes the quality of opposition isn't taken into account. That's why I don't see the hype around Makar. Playing not only in the AJHL instead of the CHL, but also the Junior A Challenge instead of the World Juniors does diminish the value of numbers put up, in my opinion.

Same goes for Mittlestadt. I am not saying he will be a bust, but if I see someone call Mittlestadt a potential star, I wonder why Vegas didn't pick him at 6 then.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Because that ruins the narrative. Same with the armchair GMs who post a million trades without taking into account the cap hit for the other team or if the other team would actually agree to that trade.

Teams trade back all the time. Happened last weekend. If they guy you wanted at 21 is gone, then it's folly NOT to trade back and acquire additional picks.

My point is that it sure seems the Rangers targeted both Andersson and Chytil as their non-negotiable picks at 7 and 21. That's one odd friggin draft board to everyone outside the NYR front office. And acting this way is a far bigger risk than gunning for the kids with star potential.

I'd rather go for the star prospect that becomes a decent third liner than go for the guaranteed 2nd liner that becomes a 2nd liner. Especially when you have one Cup in 77 years and havent drafted an elite forward prospect that was a star with the Rangers since Steve Vickers......46 years ago!!!!

The truth is the Rangers drafted two players off the board in the first round. Boston did it with Senyshyn and Debrusk and so far they look really dumb doing so, not only because of whom they passed up, but because those players more likely than not would have been available later.

I thought they learned their lesson from McIlrath - a pick I universally supported.

Like I said, odd friggin strategy.

 

[kovazub94]

i find the comments by Kournianos to just be defensive and self serving.

it challenges the draft pundits' credibility when teams' picks contradict the pundits published projected hierarchy

i have way more faith in judgement of the guys who actually have to make the picks with their jobs on the line

Me too. And for some reason it's aimed against NYR.

IMHO, outside of moving up from #7 spot they executed a perfect strategy of making a safer choice of prospect first and then going for riskier but higher potential prospect. Why someone who is playing in men's league at the age of 17 is worse than another who plays against high schoolers is beyond me.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

i find the comments by Kournianos to just be defensive and self serving.

it challenges the draft pundits' credibility when teams' picks contradict the pundits published projected hierarchy

further i find the argument that you can better predict a 18-year-old's ceiling than a 20-year-old completely counter-intuitive. The less you know, the easier to predict high ceilings, but the more likely the reality falls short

like baseball players, these guys are successes when they bat .300,
but they dont have humility to say, out loud, that its not really a science, just semi-educated guesswork

look at 2011 draft - top 7 point producers: #2,#1,#58,#43;#7;#208;#104

i respect that the draftniks invest many hours and analysis, and their work contributes to the enjoyment of the draft as spectator sport

but their reports are just the equivelent of the racetrack handicappers, and those guys too are wrong as often as they are right

i have way more faith in judgement of the guys who actually have to make the picks with their jobs on the line

Scouts and GMs of most teams are the world heavyweight champions of being wrong.

Having an NHL badge doesnt automatically hand you the monopoly on knowledge. Think it's already been proven than fans can be way smarter than scouts and GMs.

I'm a Rangers fan, and have been for a long time, just like everyone here. The draft thing I do is a hobby. Plain and simple. I watch and assess. Just like you. And I'll be the first to say the work is easy.
Watch a kid, write about it. Thats it.

I dont care about my rankings all that much. I compile data to track players, then throw an oh-by-the-way number next to them.

I like both Andersson and Chytil. Had Andersson as a lottery pick most of the season.

My beef is with the way the Rangers operate. I'm critical of them for a reason, and it starts with the way they treat the draft and draft picks. They rely too much on corporate money and the lure of Manhattan to build a winner. Worked once in 77 years.

This strategy of trading 1sts, drafting double overagers and off-the-board picks and selling NYC to college UFAs is not the way to build a championship roster.

This draft was a chance to acquire two top-end offensive players to lead the current cast of tweeners. Kreider is neither a star nor a leader. Same with Miller, Hayes and Zibanejad. Hartford is devoid of future stars.

I as a fan, not a "draftnik", wanted the Rangers to go for the gusto. They didnt, and Im upset.

Call that self serving all you want.

 

[Inferno]

They havent drafted well since 2013. If they've done so well, why did everyone consider their prospect pool to be one of the league's worst every year since 2014?

Nobody wants their prospects. Shestyorkin and Saarela, thats about it. The 2014 draft was a disaster, and 2015 -- the best draft in 12 years -- is heading in that direction. Too early to assess 2016 but not one forward has star potential.

so not well since 2013...ok lets look at that..first and foremost, that encompasses a total of 3 drafts plus the one this year which you yourself say its too early to assess...so lets just look at the those 3 drafts...
2014...they had a 2nd (59..basically a 3rd), a 3rd, 2 4ths, and 2 5ths.

They got Shesty outta all those picks..not much else to talk about there unless Halverson turns out to be something...so from essentially 3rd rounders and beyond, they got potentially a franchise level goalie.

2015..Started at 41 (2nd round) then had 3 3rds, 2 4ths anda 7th.
They got Gropp who the jury is out on, had a RED HOT finish to last year, but is a questionable prospect..Zbor who had himself a heck of a year last year, and Saarela...and Huska. Considering where they were picking..thats pretty decent.

2016.. 3rd, 4th, 5th, 2 6ths and a 7th. Sean Day, Wall, and maybe a few here and there. Maybe Sean Day becomes an NHLer...maybe not.

But considering they esentially had 1 2nd round pick, and then a bunch of 3rd rounders and later...to say that theyve drafted poorly is INCREDIBLY misleading...like misleading on a massive scale.

Its also worth looking at who was taken in the first round when the rangers picked.

Ho-Sang, Beauvillier, and Dennis Cholowski.

So...sure...theres some NHLers there...but theres not an all star to be had there...Ho-Sang whose arguably the highest upside guy there is still a big old question mark as far as im concerned.

the 15 and 16 draft really didnt have much in terms of players selected immediately after the Rangers picked that im really all that concerned about...
14 had Ho-Sang himself and Kempe...but thats not something i'll lose sleep over considering...you know...Stanley Cup Finals...and all that.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Teams trade back all the time. Happened last weekend. If they guy you wanted at 21 is gone, then it's folly NOT to trade back and acquire additional picks.

My point is that it sure seems the Rangers targeted both Andersson and Chytil as their non-negotiable picks at 7 and 21. That's one odd friggin draft board to everyone outside the NYR front office. And acting this way is a far bigger risk than gunning for the kids with star potential.

I'd rather go for the star prospect that becomes a decent third liner than go for the guaranteed 2nd liner that becomes a 2nd liner. Especially when you have one Cup in 77 years and havent drafted an elite forward prospect that was a star with the Rangers since Steve Vickers......46 years ago!!!!

The truth is the Rangers drafted two players off the board in the first round. Boston did it with Senyshyn and Debrusk and so far they look really dumb doing so, not only because of whom they passed up, but because those players more likely than not would have been available later.

I thought they learned their lesson from McIlrath - a pick I universally supported.

Like I said, odd friggin strategy.

Again, you're making the assumption that there was a team that was willing to give up what ever required to move up to 21.

Did you get a look at every other team's draft board? I'm going to go ahead and say that you didn't.

 

[Inferno]

whats the old adage? you want 2 nhlers per draft?

im assuming though that includes first round picks...

your first rounder needs to be an nhler, and 1 from the rest..
the rangers havent had a first, and have been trading 2nd and 3rds like its candy.

THAT is why our system is barren..not because we've drafted poorly.

this isnt to gang up on Steve..just gonna disagree vehemently that our drafting is the reason, and not our GM.

It also completely ignores the fact that we've added Hayes and Vesey to our cupboard who skipped the minors altogether.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Again, you're making the assumption that there was a team that was willing to give up what ever required to move up to 21.

Did you get a look at every other team's draft board? I'm going to go ahead and say that you didn't.

Neither did you. Nobody knows.

I assume it was possible. You assume it wasnt.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Neither did you. Nobody knows.

I assume it was possible. You assume it wasnt.

No I didn't, but I'm also not the one who said this:

That's one odd friggin draft board to everyone outside the NYR front office.

You can assume that trading down was possible all you want, doesn't mean that it was. If you're right then yeah, they probably ****ed up but judging by the overall lack of activity in the 1st round, the truth is probably closer to what I'm saying.

 

[Rangers in 7]

Steve is trolling hard here in my opinion....you can't judge a player after a week....watch chytil become a star, he would have been a top 10 pick in next years draft is he was born 10 days later

And I have no problem with lias, kid can play. It's not like there was a Crosby or ovechkin we passed on people....

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Me too. And for some reason it's aimed against NYR.

IMHO, outside of moving up from #7 spot they executed a perfect strategy of making a safer choice of prospect first and then going for riskier but higher potential prospect. Why someone who is playing in men's league at the age of 17 is worse than another who plays against high schoolers is beyond me.

This is one leaky rationale. So a prospect playing in a men's league automatically trumps the other playing in HS? I guess we throw skill and upside out the window. Heck, why not just cut the CHL, USHL and US-HS all out of the mix and draft nothing but Euro Elite Legaue prospects and overagers.

FYI:

2015 Hlinka:

Mittelstadt: 3-4-7 in 4 GP
Andersson: 0-0-0 in 5 GP

2016 U18:

Mittelstadt: 7-4-5-9
Andersson: 7-4-5-9

Absolutely no reason to think Mittelstadt would struggle producing in the SHL.

You don't make "safe" choices at 7th overall. Not when you just traded your 1C and have zilch in the pipeline with 1C upside.

As for Chytil, I have a hard time seeing Chytil having a higher upside than:

The draft's best power forward: Kostin
The draft's best pure sniper: Tolvanen
One of the draft's best playmakers: Yamamoto
The draft's biggest finesse winger: Vesalainen

All four have legitimate star potential. Kostin proved it at the Hlinka. Tolvanen proved it in 2 USHL seasons and at the U18s. Yamamoto proved it at the 2015 Hlinka, the 2016 U18s and three WHL seasons, and Vesalainen at the recent U18s.

Remember, Vesalainen was Frolunda's top-line winger at the start of the season for a reason. Granted, it was a premature promotion, but it was clearly based on potential.

so not well since 2013...ok lets look at that..first and foremost, that encompasses a total of 3 drafts plus the one this year which you yourself say its too early to assess...so lets just look at the those 3 drafts...
2014...they had a 2nd (59..basically a 3rd), a 3rd, 2 4ths, and 2 5ths.

They got Shesty outta all those picks..not much else to talk about there unless Halverson turns out to be something...so from essentially 3rd rounders and beyond, they got potentially a franchise level goalie.

2015..Started at 41 (2nd round) then had 3 3rds, 2 4ths anda 7th.
They got Gropp who the jury is out on, had a RED HOT finish to last year, but is a questionable prospect..Zbor who had himself a heck of a year last year, and Saarela...and Huska. Considering where they were picking..thats pretty decent.

2016.. 3rd, 4th, 5th, 2 6ths and a 7th. Sean Day, Wall, and maybe a few here and there. Maybe Sean Day becomes an NHLer...maybe not.

But considering they esentially had 1 2nd round pick, and then a bunch of 3rd rounders and later...to say that theyve drafted poorly is INCREDIBLY misleading...like misleading on a massive scale.

Its also worth looking at who was taken in the first round when the rangers picked.

Ho-Sang, Beauvillier, and Dennis Cholowski.

So...sure...theres some NHLers there...but theres not an all star to be had there...Ho-Sang whose arguably the highest upside guy there is still a big old question mark as far as im concerned.

the 15 and 16 draft really didnt have much in terms of players selected immediately after the Rangers picked that im really all that concerned about...
14 had Ho-Sang himself and Kempe...but thats not something i'll lose sleep over considering...you know...Stanley Cup Finals...and all that.

Think you're sugarcoating their pool quite a bit.

Only one skater from the 2014 and 2015 combined drafts played for Hartford last year, and that's Ronning's 5-game cup of coffee.

Not one skater from the 2014 draft is NYR property.....That's beyond pathetic.

Jury is still out on 2016, but Day was in his 4th OHL season and he is loaded with question marks. Fontaine in his 4th in the QMJHL. Reunanen regressed and hasn't looked the same since his injury. Gettinger and Ronning were OK picks.

Huska, Wall and Shertyorkin are all solid prospects. But we all know that a goalie can't do everything, and the Rangers have had a future hall of famer for quite a while.

Sure, they improved with the 2017 draft, but only with the first two picks and Sjalin, maybe Lakatos. The rest seem like their collective upside is Hartford-bound cannon fodder.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

No I didn't, but I'm also not the one who said this:

You can assume that trading down was possible all you want, doesn't mean that it was. If you're right then yeah, they probably ****ed up but judging by the overall lack of activity in the 1st round, the truth is probably closer to what I'm saying.

Truth? What truth? That trading down was not an option?????

It's always an option.

The truth leans more towards the Rangers really liking Andersson and Chytil and didn't want to trade down, rather than a request for trading down being rebuffed by 24 NHL teams.

I wanted the Rangers to do what Chicago did -- they traded down three spots from 26 to 29 for an extra 3rd, and drafted one of the best skill overagers in the draft in Altybarmakyan.

Cant stress enough how much I like Chytil, but I'd rather have Kostin and Altybarmakyan (or Ikonen) than just Chytil by himself.

Steve is trolling hard here in my opinion....you can't judge a player after a week....watch chytil become a star, he would have been a top 10 pick in next years draft is he was born 10 days later

And I have no problem with lias, kid can play. It's not like there was a Crosby or ovechkin we passed on people....

LOL

"You can't judge a player after a week"

"Watch him become a star"

Good stuff.

 

[Levitate]

If Kostin was the best power forward in the draft why'd he drop to the last pick of the 1st round?

If Tolvanen is the drafts best pure sniper why'd he drop to the 2nd to last pick in the draft?

Same with the other two.

You sound like you're overrating guys that you liked. If they were that good, had that kind of amazing potential, they probably would have gone earlier.

I don't know if Andersson and Chytil pan out to be great players, OK players, or mediocre players, but I feel like I see this with every draft where people latch on to favorites they insist are amazingly talented and question other draft choices (by the Rangers or other teams) and then 5 years down the road we see it's just a mish mash of who panned out and who didn't. Some guys who were reaches are great players, some "super talented best talent available" guys bust hard.

Maybe I'm just saying Im too old to get worked up about this crap.

As for previous drafts...well the hit rate on NHL players drafted 3-7 rounds is pretty freakin low. The Rangers not getting a ton out of recent drafts really isn't that surprising and is the price you pay for selling picks

 

[Steve Kournianos]

If Kostin was the best power forward in the draft why'd he drop to the last pick of the 1st round?

If Tolvanen is the drafts best pure sniper why'd he drop to the 2nd to last pick in the draft?

Same with the other two.

You sound like you're overrating guys that you liked. If they were that good, had that kind of amazing potential, they probably would have gone earlier.

I don't know if Andersson and Chytil pan out to be great players, OK players, or mediocre players, but I feel like I see this with every draft where people latch on to favorites they insist are amazingly talented and question other draft choices (by the Rangers or other teams) and then 5 years down the road we see it's just a mish mash of who panned out and who didn't. Some guys who were reaches are great players, some "super talented best talent available" guys bust hard.

Maybe I'm just saying Im too old to get worked up about this crap.

As for previous drafts...well the hit rate on NHL players drafted 3-7 rounds is pretty freakin low. The Rangers not getting a ton out of recent drafts really isn't that surprising and is the price you pay for selling picks

Ask the GMs and scouts. I call it like I see it. I don't know on what planet Morgan Frost or Robert Thomas were better prospects than Klim Kostin. Same with Tolvanen.

 

[Alluckks]

Ask the GMs and scouts. I call it like I see it. I don't know on what planet Morgan Frost or Robert Thomas were better prospects than Klim Kostin. Same with Tolvanen.

There is a huge difference between how we all talk to each other and discuss picks versus how you acted coming in here. It is like you waltzed in here on your high horse to educate the masses - all because you were peeved the Rangers have a different idea of how to execute a draft than you do, and now because we disagree with you as well.

You make the assumption that there was a reasonable trade available to trade down? Good lord, get a grip on reality.

Your high horse is nothing more than the town fool straddling a milk crate and yelling "giddy up."

 

[Machinehead]

This went downhill. You guys really need to Chytil out.

 

[Machinehead]

There is a ch sound but it's a little one like when you say it the German way. Gotta hock up a little bit of fleggum.

Not a fun time. I think Hee-cheel is fine.

 

[Revel]

This thread is so hot right now, lol.

I think people need to calm down right now on Cheeto, though. He's done well, but it's Prospect camp. Prospect camp. Not the AHL, not NHL pre-season...Prospect camp.

 

[Pizza]

Scouts and GMs of most teams are the world heavyweight champions of being wrong.

Having an NHL badge doesnt automatically hand you the monopoly on knowledge. Think it's already been proven than fans can be way smarter than scouts and GMs.

I'm a Rangers fan, and have been for a long time, just like everyone here. The draft thing I do is a hobby. Plain and simple. I watch and assess. Just like you. And I'll be the first to say the work is easy.
Watch a kid, write about it. Thats it.

I dont care about my rankings all that much. I compile data to track players, then throw an oh-by-the-way number next to them.

I like both Andersson and Chytil. Had Andersson as a lottery pick most of the season.

My beef is with the way the Rangers operate. I'm critical of them for a reason, and it starts with the way they treat the draft and draft picks. They rely too much on corporate money and the lure of Manhattan to build a winner. Worked once in 77 years.

This strategy of trading 1sts, drafting double overagers and off-the-board picks and selling NYC to college UFAs is not the way to build a championship roster.

This draft was a chance to acquire two top-end offensive players to lead the current cast of tweeners. Kreider is neither a star nor a leader. Same with Miller, Hayes and Zibanejad. Hartford is devoid of future stars.

I as a fan, not a "draftnik", wanted the Rangers to go for the gusto. They didnt, and Im upset.

Call that self serving all you want.

On balance this critique is pretty fair...

...I love my team, but they close the deal on far too little hardware. The bottom line is always the bottom line. Not enough Stanley Cups at MSG.

There was probably just enough talent to get the job done over the past few years. It did not happen. So I think in addition to trading away too many first round picks for shiny objects the Rangers just suffer from a lack of leadership. Gamers. Guys that just refuse to lose and are willing to do absolutely everything to win.

This is not a team that people really fear to play and are not hard enough to play against come playoff time. They run out steam and have far too many flat performances. Disturbing qualities in a "perennial Cup contender."

That's just my sense of them. Very nice guys to have a beer with probably, but not highly obsessed, driven winners...who in many cases can be *******s.

The Rangers maybe need a few of those...along with some black eyes and fat lips after a poor performance.

Because the business they are in is ALL about winning. Period.

I'm sick of hearing how good their "room" is. The right room in hockey is one where the Stanley Cup pays a visit now and again.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

There is a huge difference between how we all talk to each other and discuss picks versus how you acted coming in here. It is like you waltzed in here on your high horse to educate the masses - all because you were peeved the Rangers have a different idea of how to execute a draft than you do, and now because we disagree with you as well.

You make the assumption that there was a reasonable trade available to trade down? Good lord, get a grip on reality.

Your high horse is nothing more than the town fool straddling a milk crate and yelling "giddy up."

Oh puhleeese.

It's an opinion.

"You're on a high horse"

"Now listen here, Sonny Jim. We talk to each other a certain way"

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Oh puhleeese.

It's an opinion.

"You're on a high horse"

"Now listen here, Sonny Jim. We talk to each other a certain way"

It is an opinion, but I understand what Allucks means. It comes across as you passing it off as fact, trying to educate others.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

Teams trade back all the time. Happened last weekend. If they guy you wanted at 21 is gone, then it's folly NOT to trade back and acquire additional picks.

My point is that it sure seems the Rangers targeted both Andersson and Chytil as their non-negotiable picks at 7 and 21. That's one odd friggin draft board to everyone outside the NYR front office. And acting this way is a far bigger risk than gunning for the kids with star potential.

I'd rather go for the star prospect that becomes a decent third liner than go for the guaranteed 2nd liner that becomes a 2nd liner. Especially when you have one Cup in 77 years and havent drafted an elite forward prospect that was a star with the Rangers since Steve Vickers......46 years ago!!!!

The truth is the Rangers drafted two players off the board in the first round. Boston did it with Senyshyn and Debrusk and so far they look really dumb doing so, not only because of whom they passed up, but because those players more likely than not would have been available later.

I thought they learned their lesson from McIlrath - a pick I universally supported.

Like I said, odd friggin strategy.

I mean, DeBrusk and Senyshyn were WAAAAY more off the board then Lias and Chytil.

Lias was ranked 10-20 and was a slight riser late, looked like a lock to go top 15 draft day, slight reach yes but nothing major.

Chytil was a huge late riser and was ranked as a late 1st pick by many at draft day, slight reach again but once again, nothing major.

Would i have prefered if NYR traded down a few spots to add extra picks? Yes... BUT we have no idea if there was a market for it at all, there were no trade before like pick ~25.

Edit: Also, i very much disagree that NYR has drafted badly overall, given the picks we've had i'd say we've done a very good job since 2013 with one obvious blip.
Year by year how the drafts looked on draft day and while keeping in mind which picks we had, which is when we should evaluate them:

2013; Excellent draft, liked every pick at draft day.

2014; Bad draft, loved Shestyorkin and liked Nejezchleb, rest of the picks i was low on at draft day.

2015; Good draft, not perfect though. Didn't like the Gropp pick at all but loved that we went for skill in the 3rd/4th with Kovács, Saarela and Morrison. Zborovskiy and Huska felt like fine picks and i was not a fan of Bernhardt.

2016; Very good draft imo, LOVED the Sean Day and Reunanen picks, liked the other 4 picks too, the pick i liked the least was Wall, mostly just because i didn't know anything about him.

2017; Went with a weird approach where they clearly looked at pro ready players, an approach i didn't really agree with. But if you account for that then i think we made good picks. This draft has grown on me each day, like Lias, LOVE Chytil and Lakatos, really like Själin... Virta is a fine pick, great possession player... Not a fan of Crawley and Barron.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I mean Steve isn't wrong about Middlestadt, albeit I'm ok with Chytil at 21. Chytil was rocketing up boards around the draft, and I'll take a chance with Gorton's swing for the fences there. I still really like the Lias Andersson pick, but I was hoping for Petersson, Middlestadt, or Glass

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

Ehh, i was low on Mittelstadt, his 5v5 production in the USHL is a big red flag for me. I wasn't super high on Lias either but he's growing on me.

Watching different prediction models have him really high is nice
I think the CanucksArmy does an amazing job so for their model to have Lias as high as the 12th on their SEAL list (among all the prospects outside of the NHL, not just this draft) is encouraging.

 

[GAGLine]

People can say whatever they want about this pick or that pick. It doesn't mean anything. Yakupov was the #1 overall pick on how many draft boards? Scouting is an inexact science.

Saying that most scouts don't think Andersson or Chytil are worthy of where they were drafted is just talk at this point. There are reasons to like the picks and reasons to not like the picks. Unless you were picking 1st or 2nd overall this year, you can say that about every prospect, and even them, I'm sure there are some people who think they'd be better off with Patrick instead of Hischier, and vice versa.

We'll see in the next 2-3 years how it plays out.