Wilson charging on Wennberg (no supplementary discipline)

[tarheelhockey]

Your personal vendetta against how Tom Wilson plays is not what I am arguing.

Tom Wilson is my example but the fact remains if you penalize a player because the opponent puts himself in a bad position the league will never be the same. Hockey is a full contact, high impact sport, where split second decisions not only score goals but put players in position to be hit or not. There has to be an awareness from all of the players that if they are out of position for even a half a second they are vulnerable to be hit and as a result injured. I was taught in Peewee that if you are on the ice you can be hit, most will be clean, most you will see coming, but some will be dirty and some will come when you are not expecting it. If the head is down, if you just released the puck, or if you just got the puck you have to be expecting to be hit. That is what the problem is. Tom Wilson hits players who all fall into that category and cannot and should never be penalized because of it.

He injures people because of his size and speed at which he plays the game, not because he goes out every game trying to break someones bones.

Interesting that you paint this as a "personal vendetta". How do you justify the use of that phrase?

Interesting that you think you know more than NHL players about how to protect yourself on the ice, because of what you remember from Peewee hockey.

Interesting that you see this play as a case of a player "putting himself in a bad position", when said player merely tapped the puck around the boards and then got run from behind, having never significantly changed his body position before he got plowed.

Interesting that you think a player looking the other direction should have a complete understanding of the danger he's in, but not Tom Wilson who watched the play develop all the way through and then CHOSE to initiate contact regardless.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Tom Wilson (in meaningful ones) has 391 regular season and 42 playoff games without a suspension. He walks the line quite a bit but he's not nearly as dirty as people make him out to be.

Just curious. That's 433 overall games. How many times were Raffi Torres and Matt Cooke suspended in their first 433 games?

Cooke's first suspension was for spearing, in his 388th overall game, but that's irrelevant to his headhunting. His first hit-related suspension was in his 666th overall game.

Torres' first suspension was in the playoffs, after having played 542 overall games.

I'm guessing this was not the point you were trying to make?

 

[FishMonger]

Doughty picked the head.

Wilson contacted the head while making full body contact.

This stuff STILL isn't complicated.

Clearly you didn't watch the Doughty DPoS video, because they say that Doughty wasn't aiming for or "picking" the head.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

nothing to see.....minor penalty and move on.

 

[Crede777]

nothing to see.....minor penalty and move on.

Wennberg will likely miss the 2nd game due to this hit.

 

[izlez]

Doughty picked the shoulder, and Carrier decided he needed to lean his head inwards and extend it. Dude put himself in a terrible spot while he already had a guy coming to hit him.

It's not complicated, but it actually requires watching what Carrier does, unless you believe people should put themselves purposely in a bad spot because it'll get a suspension


edit: It's one thing if you decide to punish all contact with the head with a suspension no matter what the player who got hit does, but it's different when you have multiple incidents the next day with head contact and nothing happens

I don't see Carrier making any sudden moves with his shoulder or head. That's still a pretty tough way to try to defend it. There is not full body to body contact with Doughty, that is not debatable. A suspension should at the very least be understandable for everyone, if not expected

From what we can see, Wilson makes a good amount of body on body contact.


A bit of a side note, watching the Doughty replay again. The NBC announcers are absolutely pathetic.
"The point is does he make contact BEFORE he hits him in the head. I believe he gets him in the arm first"
How someone can be so misinformed on the subject is alarming. That is SOOOOOO far from what the rule is and what the rule is trying to do. You should not be employed around the game of hockey saying things like that

 

[DesertPenguin]

2000 and 2003 for those hits, this is not new it is a part of the culture of hockey.

Stevens would be kicked out of today's NHL for those hits. Lindros has his head down and Karyia "wasn't expecting a hit". You are on the ice in the NHL, always expect a hit.

He is hitting people exactly how he should be which is why he has relatively avoided further consequences. Players with their heads down or players who have put themselves in a position that are vulnerable to get hit need to be more aware on the ice. I am a full supporter of preventing concussions but now we are getting to a point where a suspension comes from a player for hitting someone who has put themselves in a vulnerable position or weren't expecting to be hit. That will take hits out of the game.

Scott Stevens was a scumbag that literally shortened other players lives. I've got no problem with getting those hits out of the game.

You're supposed to hit to separate player from the puck, not to injure them. Hockey isn't a gladiator sport anymore, and I'm fine with that. I've got the UFC if I want to watch gladiators pummeling each other.

 

[mikeyp24]

When Fligs, Jenner, Dubi, and Anderson start policing the ice I don't want to hear people claiming we are dirty now. Have to protect what's left of the team after they take shoulders to the face. The series could get really rough really fast.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Wennberg will likely miss the 2nd game due to this hit.

Sorry to hear that....this is a tough sport.

 

[trick9]

Cooke's first suspension was for spearing, in his 388th overall game, but that's irrelevant to his headhunting. His first hit-related suspension was in his 666th overall game.

Torres' first suspension was in the playoffs, after having played 542 overall games.

I'm guessing this was not the point you were trying to make?

The point i was making it is that it's not exactly fair to throw him in the category with players that will go down in NHL history as few of the dirtiest ones of all time when he has yet to be suspended in a meaningful game.

The other part i was just curious about.

 

[FishMonger]

Sorry to hear that....this is a tough sport.

Especially when you take a hit to the head, as was the case here.

 

[razor8]

Wennberg will likely miss the 2nd game due to this hit.

So? People get injured, doesn't mean it's a penalty or suspension.

 

[izlez]

Clearly you didn't watch the Doughty DPoS video, because they say that Doughty wasn't aiming for or "picking" the head.

I had not watched it. Now I have. Shockingly, they really emphasized the things I have been saying for years on these types of hits.

They repeatedly said the head was the "main" point of contact that took the "brunt" of the force. And they emphasized that the first point of contact is irrelevant.

I think that means he picked the head.


I'm curious where in the video you think they said he DID NOT pick the head.

 

[stevo61]

To be fair ...its the playoffs. Guys get a hang nail and coaches will say "game time decision." its the gamesmanship.

Im NOT implying that he is or is not hurt. Im just saying .. Torts giving the doubtful claim is grain of salt. All coaches do that.

It was Kekalainem that actual let that info out I believe. Torts doesnt usually talk about that stuff

 

[PAZ]

Wilson needs to be responsible for his own body to a certain extent. Can you imagine prime Chara going all-out lining up guys? There would be a long, long list besides Pacioretty if he did that.

I don't necessarily think this was a horrible hit, but Wilson's track record doesn't look pretty.

 

[trick9]

When Fligs, Jenner, Dubi, and Anderson start policing the ice I don't want to hear people claiming we are dirty now. Have to protect what's left of the team after they take shoulders to the face. The series could get really rough really fast.

...Didn't Anderson get tossed for boarding and injuring a player before this ever happened?

 

[Moses Doughty]

I don't see Carrier making any sudden moves with his shoulder or head. That's still a pretty tough way to try to defend it. There is not full body to body contact with Doughty, that is not debatable. A suspension should at the very least be understandable for everyone, if not expected

From what we can see, Wilson makes a good amount of body on body contact.

Look at how he sticks his head out the whole time, and when he turns inside (while Doughty is already going in for the hit) puts his head right on the line Doughty is taking. Have to be able to protect yourself and not lean head first while cutting, and then he gets hit right in the shoulder as intended.

Wilson leaves his feet as his makes contact, but it was early enough where the contact itself is not what forced him to leave his feet. Shoulder right to the head. You're pretty much saying head contact doesn't matter if he got the body in any substantial amount as well

 

[FishMonger]

I had not watched it. Now I have. Shockingly, they really emphasized the things I have been saying for years on these types of hits.

They repeatedly said the head was the "main" point of contact that took the "brunt" of the force. And they emphasized that the first point of contact is irrelevant.

I think that means he picked the head.


I'm curious where in the video you think they said he DID NOT pick the head.

pick1
pik/
verb

1. 1.
   take hold of and remove (a flower, fruit, or vegetable) from where it is growing.
   "I went to pick some flowers for Jenny's room"
   

   synonyms:

   harvest, gather (in), collect, pluck; literarycull "I got a job picking apples"

   [TBODY] [/TBODY]

• 2.
  choose (someone or something) from a number of alternatives, typically after careful thought.

• Clearly you disagree with me and the dictionary as to the definition of pick. But if by "pick" you mean he didn't try to hit it but did in the process of attempting something entirely different, he did, then yeah. Totally on the same page.

 

[PAZ]

2000 and 2003 for those hits, this is not new it is a part of the culture of hockey.

Stevens would be kicked out of today's NHL for those hits. Lindros has his head down and Karyia "wasn't expecting a hit". You are on the ice in the NHL, always expect a hit.

He is hitting people exactly how he should be which is why he has relatively avoided further consequences. Players with their heads down or players who have put themselves in a position that are vulnerable to get hit need to be more aware on the ice. I am a full supporter of preventing concussions but now we are getting to a point where a suspension comes from a player for hitting someone who has put themselves in a vulnerable position or weren't expecting to be hit. That will take hits out of the game.

These types of hits being 'part of the culture of hockey' is such an archaic way of thinking. Is the game better because we got to see Stevens lineup and deliver huge hits to star players, as opposed to seeing Lindros, Kariya, and the countless others he injured in their prime? Yes, Stevens was 'clean' back in the day and avoided consequences, but it's a shame he walked the line because he took away careers of some great players.

If this was a one off incident with Wilson there wouldn't have been much a second glance. But he's built up a reputation of playing on the line, and while it's 'clean' by the books it doesn't make him a clean player. I wouldn't want a player like Stevens or Wilson derailing OV's career, it's not a part of the game you should point to and simply say 'keep your head up bud'. There's countless other players that are able to deliver clean hits that are the same same stature as Wilson, they just know when to pick their hits.

 

[mouser]

Look at how he sticks his head out the whole time, and when he turns inside (while Doughty is already going in for the hit) puts his head right on the line Doughty is taking. Have to be able to protect yourself and not lean head first while cutting, and then he gets hit right in the shoulder as intended.

Wilson leaves his feet as his makes contact, but it was early enough where the contact itself is not what forced him to leave his feet. Shoulder right to the head. You're pretty much saying head contact doesn't matter if he got the body in any substantial amount as well

The rule is whether "the head was the main point of contact". So, yes head contact might be permitted if there was sufficient body contact along with it in the hit.

 

[izlez]

pick1
pik/
verb

1. 1.
   take hold of and remove (a flower, fruit, or vegetable) from where it is growing.
   "I went to pick some flowers for Jenny's room"
   

   synonyms:

   harvest, gather (in), collect, pluck; literarycull "I got a job picking apples"

   [TBODY] [/TBODY]

• 2.
  choose (someone or something) from a number of alternatives, typically after careful thought.

• Clearly you disagree with me and the dictionary as to the definition of pick. But if by "pick" you mean he didn't try to hit it but did in the process of attempting something entirely different, he did, then yeah. Totally on the same page.

I think it's always been very clear that they mean it in the sense of "pick clean", "got nothing but". The word is used all the time in that sense.



30 Thoughts: NHL clarifies illegal check to head rule | Hockey | CBC Sports

"First, whether the player attempted to hit squarely through the opponent's body and the head was not "picked" as a result of poor timing, poor angle of approach or unnecessary extension of the body upward or outward."

I can't imagine writing that up and choosing to use the word "picked" instead of "intentionally targeted" or "intentionally chosen" if you mean "intentionally targeted"

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Case closed

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Especially when you take a hit to the head, as was the case here.

Sorry he was caught in a bad spot....shit happens in fast sports.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The point i was making it is that it's not exactly fair to throw him in the category with players that will go down in NHL history as few of the dirtiest ones of all time when he has yet to be suspended in a meaningful game.

The other part i was just curious about.

The thing is though, the GP point was an excellent parallel between Wilson and Cooke/Torres. He’s actually in a very similar place at a very similar time in his career. I very much remember this exact same “clean suspension history” argument for Cooke, and then over a short timeframe the league threw the book at him and he was gone.

 

[izlez]

Look at how he sticks his head out the whole time, and when he turns inside (while Doughty is already going in for the hit) puts his head right on the line Doughty is taking. Have to be able to protect yourself and not lean head first while cutting, and then he gets hit right in the shoulder as intended.

I have to agree with all the words you are saying here. His head is out the whole time. You do have to protect yourself. You can't lean into someone hitting you.

I just think the Doughty hit is the definition of: cutting across the body, the head being the main point of contact, and the player NOT altering his body suddenly and drastically to put himself in danger. It doesn't seem like we're going to agree on that.

Wilson leaves his feet as his makes contact, but it was early enough where the contact itself is not what forced him to leave his feet. Shoulder right to the head. You're pretty much saying head contact doesn't matter if he got the body in any substantial amount as well

Yeah. If your head is down, out in front of your body, and gets forcefully contacted as a full shoulder to chest hit is being made, that is fine. That is what I would say happened on this hit (admitting that there are a million different tiny changes from hit to hit that make each individual hit hard to judge)