will Johnny Gaudreau sign this offseason?

[Volica]

FWIW, Leblanc isn't scoring much in the AHL and may well be a fringe NHL player, at best

Could also be he's as old as Backs; and up until this year was playing against people around his age.
If you look at his first two years, they're pretty average; while JG is absolutely dynamite offensively for a 18/19 y.o kid who is still very much a boy playing against men.

To add to the recent topic trend this thread has turned. One word. Nonsense.

 

[BVicious]

???? Based on what?

I have had junior players tell me personally that they tanked their interview with the Flames on purpose at the draft combine. The reason is that Flames draft picks as a rule DO NOT make the NHL. Players and player agents notice things like that.

There are more Calgary Hitmen alumni in the NHL than Heat/Knights alumni. Meaning that a Calgary Hitmen is actually closer to the NHL than a player on the Heat.

No junior/collegiate player thinks that the best way to become an NHLer is through the Flames. Not one.

But they do seem to be slowly changing things though. But the changes don't mean anything until they actually start drafting/developing players into the NHL. Hopefully in a few seasons at least half the roster will be homegrown.

So you are telling me these 17-18 year old kids have agents telling them to purposely tank the interview with the Flames based on past regimes inability to develop young talent?

And I'm not talking about all junior/collage hockey players, I'm talking about JG, who has been drafted already.....in the 4th round no less.

My post was based on him constantly re-assuring that he has no intentions of becoming a free agent and the only thing stopping him from turning pro WITH THE FLAMES is based on his academic aspirations.

JG has a better shot of becoming a regular NHLer on the flames more so than any other teams, as Burke has mentioned before, he needs these young skilled guys as long as they have beef around him.

And if you can name 5 current Calgary Hitmen that are closer to the NHL than Sven, Street, Breen, Billins, Smith, Granlund, Ortio, etc. then I guess the Hitmen should have 5 picks in the first round?

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

So you are telling me these 17-18 year old kids have agents telling them to purposely tank the interview with the Flames based on past regimes inability to develop young talent?

And I'm not talking about all junior/collage hockey players, I'm talking about JG, who has been drafted already.....in the 4th round no less.

My post was based on him constantly re-assuring that he has no intentions of becoming a free agent and the only thing stopping him from turning pro WITH THE FLAMES is based on his academic aspirations.

JG has a better shot of becoming a regular NHLer on the flames more so than any other teams, as Burke has mentioned before, he needs these young skilled guys as long as they have beef around him.

And if you can name 5 current Calgary Hitmen that are closer to the NHL than Sven, Street, Breen, Billins, Smith, Granlund, Ortio, etc. then I guess the Hitmen should have 5 picks in the first round?

Don't forget Wotherspoon, Seiloff and Reinhart. I agree with you 100%, that notion is just foolish. All prospects are a gamble of sorts, and some are much larger than others, but overall we have been doing a far superior job of developing our players over the last 5 years and especially since Conroy was put in charge of Abby.

 

[Guido Sarducci]

So you are telling me these 17-18 year old kids have agents telling them to purposely tank the interview with the Flames based on past regimes inability to develop young talent?

That is exactly what I am saying. At least 3 players have told me that they did that. One of them had a big name agent. Countless others have told me that they hope that the Flames don't draft them. The Flames have a bad reputation. It's a fact.

 

[Kanye]

But how are we supposed to believe you though lol.

You have no credentials and absolutely zero proof to back up your claim. You're just another HF poster, it's a fact.

 

[Guido Sarducci]

JG has a better shot of becoming a regular NHLer on the flames more so than any other teams, as Burke has mentioned before, he needs these young skilled guys as long as they have beef around him.

Hey, I think that he is gonna sign. I just don't agree with your thinking that prospects want to come through Calgary because it's the easiest way to get to the NHL. In fact, history has shown that it is pretty much the opposite.

I think Gaudreau will sign because the Flames own his rights. They are the only team that can sign him before Aug 15 2015. That is a long ways away. I get the feeling that Gaudreau wants to be pro right now. However, if he goes back to college next year, might as well just kiss him good bye.

 

[tyflames]

Hey, I think that he is gonna sign. I just don't agree with your thinking that prospects want to come through Calgary because it's the easiest way to get to the NHL. In fact, history has shown that it is pretty much the opposite.

I think Gaudreau will sign because the Flames own his rights. They are the only team that can sign him before Aug 15 2015. That is a long ways away. I get the feeling that Gaudreau wants to be pro right now. However, if he goes back to college next year, might as well just kiss him good bye.

While I don't particularly believe that you say they tank their interview because they don't want to play for the flames, cause I'm sure any player just wants to be drafted and have a chance at the NHL, this type of thinking could have been possible under Sutter.

Ever since the flames realized that the new NHL requires speed and skill we have drafted and developed better. Look at our current lineup, Sean Monahan is one of our top contributors. Brodie is a 2D on our team. Both our goalies are rookies. Add to the fact guys like Street, Breen, possibly Ortio, and Bouma have all been given shots at the NHL level.

A junior player must earn his way to the NHL, it is not a quick way to get there. If they play well they will play in the NHL and it won't matter what team they play for.

Also just to back up your claims, and not being sarcastic, I legitmitately want to know, if you can name me a player who was not given an NHL opportunity and it was because he was a rookie for the Calgary Flames organization?

Edit: also the Erixon scenario doesn't pertain. He had a bad attitude and in turn could not crack New Yorks lineup and is having difficulty with Columbus so it's not just Calgary in that situation.

 

[Guido Sarducci]

Also just to back up your claims, and not being sarcastic, I legitmitately want to know, if you can name me a player who was not given an NHL opportunity and it was because he was a rookie for the Calgary Flames organization?

Leland Irving. 2006 draft pick. AHL All-Star in 09/10. Development curve going pretty much perfectly. On draft day in 2010 the Flames trade for Henrik Karlsson and then sign him to a one way contract. Sorry Leland Irving. You must be careful not to rush prospects, but it is just as bad to keep them down too long.

According to NHL.com, 906 players have played in the NHL this season. How many of those 906 broke into the NHL through the Flames? 10? 15 maybe? Do any of you really think that players and agents don't care about stuff like that?

 

[BVicious]

Hey, I think that he is gonna sign. I just don't agree with your thinking that prospects want to come through Calgary because it's the easiest way to get to the NHL. In fact, history has shown that it is pretty much the opposite.

I think Gaudreau will sign because the Flames own his rights. They are the only team that can sign him before Aug 15 2015. That is a long ways away. I get the feeling that Gaudreau wants to be pro right now. However, if he goes back to college next year, might as well just kiss him good bye.

Again, I'm not talking about prospects. I'm talking about JG, the tiny super NCAA stud who puts up insane numbers yes, but is a huge gamble for 29 other teams to place in their top 6 due to size. That's who I am talking about.

It's like Druin, he was a top 3 pick but cannot be on the Tampa roster due to size and strength.

JG has all the tools to be an impact player, minus the size and strength to play an 82 game season in the NHL. I cannot see him have a chance to crack a roster outside of calgary's. Because we need goals now. We are rebuilding now. That is why I think his best chance of playing in the NHL in the next 2 years, is with a team like Calgary. Therefore, I think he must know this and think career wise it's best to sign with the flames and start working out/developing under our organizational management.

I will never dispute your claims of having sources in the junior ranks, because maybe you do maybe you don't. Just like I won't reveal my sources on the flames in the offseason when I said Backs either signs a 2 year deal or goes to arbitration.

My original post was my feelings in the situation and knowledge of NHL prospects.

 

[Guido Sarducci]

Again, I'm not talking about prospects. I'm talking about JG, the tiny super NCAA stud who puts up insane numbers yes, but is a huge gamble for 29 other teams to place in their top 6 due to size. That's who I am talking about.

It's like Druin, he was a top 3 pick but cannot be on the Tampa roster due to size and strength.

JG has all the tools to be an impact player, minus the size and strength to play an 82 game season in the NHL. I cannot see him have a chance to crack a roster outside of calgary's. Because we need goals now. We are rebuilding now. That is why I think his best chance of playing in the NHL in the next 2 years, is with a team like Calgary. Therefore, I think he must know this and think career wise it's best to sign with the flames and start working out/developing under our organizational management.

I will never dispute your claims of having sources in the junior ranks, because maybe you do maybe you don't. Just like I won't reveal my sources on the flames in the offseason when I said Backs either signs a 2 year deal or goes to arbitration.

My original post was my feelings in the situation and knowledge of NHL prospects.

Fair enough. I'm sure we can agree that we both hope he signs with the Flames and turns out awesome. He could be a Flame by April!

 

[tyflames]

Leland Irving. AHL All-Star in 09/10. On draft day in 2010 the Flames trade for Henrik Karlsson and then sign him to a one way contract. You must be careful not to rush prospects, but it is just as bad to keep them down too long.

According to NHL.com, 906 players have played in the NHL this season. How many of those 906 broke into the NHL through the Flames? 15 maybe? Do any of you really think that players and agents don't care about that?

Leland Irving also struggled at other times in the AHL and if you remember he was given a chance last year when kipper went down and could not perform. If he is an NHL caliber goalie why is he in the Finnish Elite League?

Also your argument in the second paragraph is a terrible stat. All it is is a number. Players make it to the NHL based on whether they are good enough and ready? Maybe only so many made the Flames because they weren't ready while other teams had a more ready and talented prospect pool.

That number is terribly flawed, what you are saying doesn't make sense. If players are good enough and ready to make the jump to the NHL that is when they will. You're saying because not many flames prospects were ready for the NHL and talented enough to play that causes agents to say the flames can't develop players.

 

[1989]

Leland Irving also struggled at other times in the AHL and if you remember he was given a chance last year when kipper went down and could not perform. If he is an NHL caliber goalie why is he in the Finnish Elite League?.

Classic what-have-you-done-for-me-lately syndrome. Or do you not remember KHL, undrafted Giordano?

I'm not even defending Irving. All of these people play this sport at a very high level, even the enforcers and fourth line plugs could shame almost any one of us. The key is always consistency; the superstars aren't just the one with soft mitts and the nice dangles but the ones who can perform at a high level night-in and night-out. The problem is when you're fighting for a contract in a League that only has so many spots, even less so when you are a goaltender in a bad market. One game can make or break you in the League.

Terrible example.

 

[TheHudlinator]

Leland Irving. 2006 draft pick. AHL All-Star in 09/10. Development curve going pretty much perfectly. On draft day in 2010 the Flames trade for Henrik Karlsson and then sign him to a one way contract. Sorry Leland Irving. You must be careful not to rush prospects, but it is just as bad to keep them down too long.

According to NHL.com, 906 players have played in the NHL this season. How many of those 906 broke into the NHL through the Flames? 10? 15 maybe? Do any of you really think that players and agents don't care about stuff like that?

Played last year and certainly not to the level of either Ramo or Berra have this year and I am big Irving fan. He is given a very small shot in the NHL no doubt but if the only thing holding him back from making the NHL was the Flames then someone would have picked him up. Irving may forever be a case of all tools and no tool box. Not to mention Irving wasn't handled by Burke at all why the Flames history matters idk what should matter his Burke's history.

 

[tyflames]

Classic what-have-you-done-for-me-lately syndrome. Or do you not remember KHL, undrafted Giordano?

I'm not even defending Irving. All of these people play this sport at a very high level, even the enforcers and fourth line plugs could shame almost any one of us. The key is always consistency and the problem is when you are fighting for a contract in a League that only has so many spots, even less so when you are a goaltender in a bad market. One game can make or break you in the League.

Terrible example.

How it is a terrible example? He was given a shot to stick and couldn't. In 13 games over two NHL seasons his GAA wasn't below a 3. It wasn't even below a 3 in the AHL last season. Outside of a couple seasons his save percentage hovered around a .900 in the AHL. Not really a what have you done for me lately syndrome. He simply wasn't good enough to be a regular NHL goalie.
If he was, he would be one right now.

 

[Calculon]

How it is a terrible example? He was given a shot to stick and couldn't. In 13 games over two NHL seasons his GAA wasn't below a 3. It wasn't even below a 3 in the AHL last season. Outside of a couple seasons his save percentage hovered around a .900 in the AHL. Not really a what have you done for me lately syndrome. He simply wasn't good enough to be a regular NHL goalie.
If he was, he would be one right now.

This is some spurious logic all around.

Feaster: 'Hey Karlsson, Irving, we totally think you guys can succeed in the NHL but first, we're going to waive both of you. You know, just to show how much confidence we have in you guys and how much the organization believes in you. Trust me, it's in no way me trying to get somebody else to make the decision for me.'

Feaster: 'Hey Hartley, I know you want to send Baertschi down to the Heat because you thinks he's not ready but I kind of want to keep my job, so keep him in the lineup, k?'

Yup, great developmental system. There's a reason beyond 'it's the players fault' that the Flames have drafted and developed almost nothing of note from the early 1990's to the late 2000's.

Burke is big step up though. Miles ahead of Sutter's policy of either rushing players to the NHL or leaving them to rot in the AHL or Feaster's habit of picking favourites.

 

[tyflames]

This is some spurious logic all around.

Feaster: 'Hey Karlsson, Irving, we totally think you guys can succeed in the NHL but first, we're going to waive both of you. You know, just to show how much confidence we have in you guys and how much the organization believes in you. Trust me, it's in no way me trying to get somebody else to make the decision for me.'

Feaster: 'Hey Hartley, I know you want to send Baertschi down to the Heat because you thinks he's not ready but I kind of want to keep my job, so keep him in the lineup, k?'

Yup, great developmental system. There's a reason beyond 'it's the players fault' that the Flames have drafted and developed almost nothing of note from the early 1990's to the late 2000's.

Burke is big step up though. Miles ahead of Sutter's policy of either rushing players to the NHL or leaving them to rot in the AHL or Feaster's habit of picking favourites.

I'm not defending the development system of the organization, actually one of my original points was that it has gotten better. I'm just arguing that for the players mentioned it wasn't the flames system that caused them to crash and burn.

 

[Calculon]

I'm not defending the development system of the organization, actually one of my original points was that it has gotten better. I'm just arguing that for the players mentioned it wasn't the flames system that caused them to crash and burn.

Irving was very much a case of both though. Was he as good as he needed to be? No. But did the organization mishandle his development? Absolutely.

During the last lockout, the organization opted to play a couple of AHL journeymen over what was at the time, their number one goalie prospect in Irving. So instead of getting him warmed up and ready to play, they ensured that he was not only cold, but low in confidence given his once-a-month starts. That's shoddy development plain and simple

Then, in training camp, instead of showing some support and confidence in his abilities, building on what was widely considered to be a promising effort as Kiprusoff's backup in the previous season, his capabilities are repeatedly questioned and culminate in him being waiving where he went unclaimed. Obviously, he was full of confidence after that.

Finally, Kiprusoff's get injured and Irving gets thrown to the wolves after having barely played much at all in the previous year. Moreover, he's now behind a team that's struggled defensively, behind which no goaltender that suited up for them looked above average (and that includes Kiprusoff). After one bad performance, he's blacklisted and written off.

It's absolutely fair to say the organization did a horrible job with Irving's development because it's entirely true. Regardless though, Irving's not exactly old at 25 nor are his opportunities to come back to the NHL finished. He's apparently doing well in Finland so who knows.

 

[Noori]

95% sure that Johnny's sister Katie is a poster on CalPuck.

BChockeyJunkie mentioned that @johnbuccigross tweeted to them that Gaudreau will be on SC. The only person Buccigross tweeted that to was Katie Gaudreau .

Katie Gaudreau / BChockeyJunkie also mentioned this on CP:

Gaudreau will 100% ink a deal the day he plays his last bc game this season. Stop worrying.

JUST incase anyone is wondering if he's going to sign, his sister sure seems to think so.

 

[MuffinMerc]

Irving was very much a case of both though. Was he as good as he needed to be? No. But did the organization mishandle his development? Absolutely.

During the last lockout, the organization opted to play a couple of AHL journeymen over what was at the time, their number one goalie prospect in Irving. So instead of getting him warmed up and ready to play, they ensured that he was not only cold, but low in confidence given his once-a-month starts. That's shoddy development plain and simple

Then, in training camp, instead of showing some support and confidence in his abilities, building on what was widely considered to be a promising effort as Kiprusoff's backup in the previous season, his capabilities are repeatedly questioned and culminate in him being waiving where he went unclaimed. Obviously, he was full of confidence after that.

Finally, Kiprusoff's get injured and Irving gets thrown to the wolves after having barely played much at all in the previous year. Moreover, he's now behind a team that's struggled defensively, behind which no goaltender that suited up for them looked above average (and that includes Kiprusoff). After one bad performance, he's blacklisted and written off.

It's absolutely fair to say the organization did a horrible job with Irving's development because it's entirely true. Regardless though, Irving's not exactly old at 25 nor are his opportunities to come back to the NHL finished. He's apparently doing well in Finland so who knows.

^This. I agree completely.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Leland Irving. 2006 draft pick. AHL All-Star in 09/10. Development curve going pretty much perfectly. On draft day in 2010 the Flames trade for Henrik Karlsson and then sign him to a one way contract. Sorry Leland Irving. You must be careful not to rush prospects, but it is just as bad to keep them down too long.

According to NHL.com, 906 players have played in the NHL this season. How many of those 906 broke into the NHL through the Flames? 10? 15 maybe? Do any of you really think that players and agents don't care about stuff like that?

I thought I'd take a stab, just for shats and gaggles (note: this is based on the 906 "played in the NHL this year", rather than the 600-700 or so who are NHL regulars).

Jarome Iginla
Dion Phaneuf
Robyn Regehr
TJ Brodie
Sean Monahan
Mikael Backlund
Sven Baertschi
Mark Giordano
Chris Breen
Martin St. Louis
Max Reinhart
Ben Street
Brandon Prust
Adam Pardy
Eric Nystrom
Chuck Kobasew
David Moss
Derek Morris
Jordan Leopold

Still not mind-blowing (since it should be closer to 30) but 19 players isn't quite as bad as your suggestions. And it is in spite of some pretty piss-poor drafting and being a team that had no 2nd round pick in 6 drafts between '02 and '10, as well as no 1st round pick in '10.

 

[Guido Sarducci]

Thanks SmellOfVictory. 19 players. OK, I stand corrected. And goalies were included in the 906. Add Berra and McElhinney and you get 21.

The only name you listed that I would question is Ben Street because he signed with the Penguins before he was a Flame. So call it 20.5.

 

[Guido Sarducci]

Still not mind-blowing (since it should be closer to 30) but 19 players isn't quite as bad as your suggestions. And it is in spite of some pretty piss-poor drafting and being a team that had no 2nd round pick in 6 drafts between '02 and '10, as well as no 1st round pick in '10.

I think the drafting was at least average. And the development aspect was the real failure. Dustin Boyd, Matt Pelech, Leland Irving etc etc.

I would say another big factor was in 2003 when the St John Flames folded. I have no idea what Ron Bremner was thinking when he decided that the Flames didn't need an AHL team. What is the point of drafting if you don't have a place for the players to play?

Even though they were only without a team for 2 seasons, the fact that they had to start from scratch in 05/06 set them back years. And moving the team twice in their first 3 seasons also didn't help.

Don't underestimate the 04 cup run factor either. That put the Flames in "win now" mode even though they didn't actually have a team that was capable of winning it all.

 

[King In The North]

Who are these prospects you claim deliberately tank to avoid the Flames? I don't believe you for one second.

 

[bozybo]

I see where you are coming from but you are looking at the micro level of the situation on the macro level Calgary is a hot spot think about how the flames orginization treats there players a level of respect and class matched by no other team in the NHL besides the Wings. Alfie left sens bad terms, Carter and Richards left philly, Gabby was used as a scape goat for torts in NYR. The list goes on and on when players around the league see how even a guy like Jaybo is treated to a standing Ovation when he comes to tow really takes notice around the league.

 

[Anglesmith]

There are at least two players (Glenny and Staj) on the Flames who took a discount to play here. It obviously isn't that unpalatable. It's not news that our drafting and development have been **** for the past couple of decades, but I find it hard to believe that player agents aren't taking into account the position and new perspective of the Flames' organization.