Why can't NHL give Jets their history back?

[BKIslandersFan]

It is a tricky thing. You think of the "Jets" as today's team AND the 1980s/1990s versions. Heck, you think of them as Bobby Hull's Jets too. But they are in city name alone, not in franchise. The Arizona Coyotes are technically still a continuation of the original Winnipeg Jets. I would say use a different nickname if you want more originality, but they didn't. They went back to Jets. Which makes sense of course as they never should have left Winnipeg in the first place. It is just a technicality of course either way. If you want to think of the Jets of the 1980s as today's team, go nuts, it is at least the same city, maybe not same franchise.

As for the Cleveland Browns, that was another big mistake and they were only gone three years. Winnipeg was gone 15. I think there was a grassroots movement to get the Browns back right from the beginning and they did.

But could Brooklyn be the "Dodgers" again? No, they couldn't. It has just been too long.

It’s all about whether the relocated team wants or is willing to give up their claim to history. Dodgers won’t, it Ravens did. Also Pelicans who left Charlotte longer than Ravens did to Cleveland.

 

[Big Phil]

It’s all about whether the relocated team wants or is willing to give up their claim to history. Dodgers won’t, it Ravens did. Also Pelicans who left Charlotte longer than Ravens did to Cleveland.

True...........they aren't the Arizona "Jets" down there. But what is really sad is just the fact that even in 1996 I could foresee the disaster of having Phoenix get a team and of all teams losing it Winnipeg. And now.............well, no need to comment on the state of the Coyotes. Just sad the Jets left in the first place.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

^ well maybe after the coyotes finally move/fold the jets can absorb their two winnipeg eras, and the doan (and keller[?]) eras can go off into the ether as if they never happened, like the golden seals?

 

[Killion]

True...........they aren't the Arizona "Jets" down there. But what is really sad is just the fact that even in 1996 I could foresee the disaster of having Phoenix get a team and of all teams losing it Winnipeg. And now.............well, no need to comment on the state of the Coyotes. Just sad the Jets left in the first place.

Yeah, most unfortunate that the Jets 01 were forced out, no $$$ for a new building, then bounced from Minnesota before the puck ever drops when the ownership demands subsidies, denied, homeless, Bettman doing a "solid" for his old NBA Buddy Jerry Colangelo in Phoenix deeply in debt with a new building, a paying tenant in an NHL franchise (who Colangelo really put the screws to) helpful in paying that down..... the building basketball specific so not even remotely hockey friendly much like Barclays in Brooklyn lousy sightlines, extremely uncomfortable place to be watching a game, one end of the rink blank, dead end. Just no critical thought employed whatsoever. Recipe for disaster. If they'd really wanted to make a go of it & make it work they should have moved into the older Vets Coliseum, one time home of the WHA & minor-pro Roadrunners. Renovated the joint. Re-connected to what history they did have with the game at the higher levels, spent their time focusing on re-building the fan base & then after a few years looked at putting up their own building in Scottsdale or perhaps downtown.

 

[MS]

It's a tough one.

I think I feel that the statistics for the franchise should stay with the franchise but the more visceral stuff like retired numbers, rights to old uniforms and the like should stay with the city and the fans those things actually mean something to.

The retired number situation for the Jets is just a mess :

- Bryan Little switched from 10 to 18 with the franchise move and Hawerchuk's 10 has never been re-issued. But Andrew Copp is tooling around in Bobby Hull's #9.

- Connor Hellebucyk is wearing Dan Snyder's out-of-circulation #37, essentially negating the Atlanta history component.

- the retired numbers of Hull/Hawerchuk/Steen stayed out of use for almost 20 years in Arizona. But in 2015, that franchise seemed to relenquish that claim to their history and re-issued all 3 numbers, which were worn by Clayton Keller, Anthony Duclair, and Nick Cousins last year. But those numbers are still apparently in their ring of honour.

Given that Arizona seems to be letting go of the Jets part of their history and given that the Jets don't acknowledge the Atlanta part really, it would seem like common sense to properly take the Hull and Steen jerseys out of circulation for the Jets, but that hasn't happened.

 

[Rick Kehoe]

Even if they "officially" got their history back, it would still be a fake history, since this Winnipeg franchise is not the same as the previous one which still exists in Phoenix. I don't think many NFL fans take the whole "Cleveland Browns" history thing seriously, even though the NFL record books say the expansion team and the original team are the same franchise. To me, and probably most fans outside of Cleveland, the original Browns are now playing in Baltimore and have won two Super Bowls. It was the same ownership, front office and players from Cleveland that won that first Ravens Super Bowl. Meanwhile, the "new" Cleveland Browns just went 0-16 and are one of the worst franchises in sports.

It was many different players in Baltimore which won that first Super Bowl, including a different head coach. The Ravens are just a different entity, and that's the best way to approach it. Even the Indianapolis Colts are different than the Baltimore version, because a new chapter began in Indy in 1984. Few fans in Indianapolis care about the old Baltimore Colts history and players, because they didn't experience that history. While the new Cleveland Browns have been a major disappointment after reaching the postseason after the 2002 season, there is still a viable connection to the past.

I don't any Jets fans today care about the Phoenix Coyotes, or the defunct Atlanta Thrashers. The fans are the ones most involved with the history, and there are generations of Winnipeg fans who either saw the WHA, or passed down that history. Conversely, you'll be hard pressed to find any Thrasher fans
who followed the team after the relocation.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

If the NHL were to transfer the old Jets history to the current Jets, the likely scenario would be that the franchise is treated as suspending operations from 1996-99 (with June 25, 1997 being treated as the day the dormant franchise was sold to Time Warner who relocated the franchise to Atlanta), then played as the Atlanta Thrashers from 1999-2011, then returned to Winnipeg (a la Oakland Raiders) in 2011. The Arizona team is then made a 1996 expansion team.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I kind of look at it like if your family dog dies, and you don't want to tell the kids so you get a new dog that looks the same and give it the same name. The the kids (fans) they treat it as if it is the same old dog they always loved, but the parents (NHL) and dog know they are not the same. Doesn't mean they love it any less, but it is factually wrong to claim that dog is the age of or had the same experiences as the previous dog.

 

[Whalers Fan]

It was many different players in Baltimore which won that first Super Bowl, including a different head coach. The Ravens are just a different entity, and that's the best way to approach it. Even the Indianapolis Colts are different than the Baltimore version, because a new chapter began in Indy in 1984. Few fans in Indianapolis care about the old Baltimore Colts history and players, because they didn't experience that history. While the new Cleveland Browns have been a major disappointment after reaching the postseason after the 2002 season, there is still a viable connection to the past.

Teams change head coaches and have player turnover all the time, regardless of whether the team is relocating or not. In the NFL's case, team history has always followed the team when it relocates, with the exception of the silly artificial case of the Browns/Ravens as the NFL attempted to appease an angry fan base. The Raiders have retained their history and team records during their ping-ponging between Oakland and LA, and will do so in Las Vegas. Same with the Rams in their odyssey from Cleveland -> LA -> St. Louis -> LA, the Chargers from LA -> SD -> LA, the Cardinals from Chicago to St. Louis to Phoenix, and even with teams changing nicknames like the Houston Oilers -> Nashville -> "Tennessee" Titans.

In MLB, Hall of Famers such as Willie Mays (NY/SF Giants) and Hank Aaron (Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves) have their names in a single franchise's record books, along with having ended their careers back in the same city they started but with different franchises with different histories (NY Mets and Milwaukee Brewers, respectively).

Franchises have been relocating as long as sports have been around. To pretend it doesn't happen by leaving the franchise's record books with the city they leave is silly.

 

[DowntownBooster]

I kind of look at it like if your family dog dies, and you don't want to tell the kids so you get a new dog that looks the same and give it the same name. The the kids (fans) they treat it as if it is the same old dog they always loved, but the parents (NHL) and dog know they are not the same. Doesn't mean they love it any less, but it is factually wrong to claim that dog is the age of or had the same experiences as the previous dog.

The example of the family dog is often used to when trying to discredit those that would like to see the records of a team remain with the city where they occurred rather than remaining with the team if it moves to another city. It is not the same as having a dog run away from home, getting a new one and giving it the same name, thereby, in effect pretending it’s the same dog because you’ve given it the same name. Technically, although hockey teams are a going concern unlike a dog that will die (or run away), the players on the team change from year to year even though the team name remains the same. Should the team be renamed every time the roster is affected by trades or retirement? Guy Lafleur no longer plays for the Canadiens and neither does Jean Beliveau. Does that mean the team name should change? Basically it’s always a different team that has players wearing the same jerseys which is no different than using the same name for a different dog.

It should not be that difficult to have team records remain with the city where they occurred if that is what the fans in that particular city want. In Winnipeg’s case, we are not talking about a gap of 50 years or so whereby the fans of the original team have long since passed on. The fans of the original Jets are still here. We never left. To us, they (Jets 1.0 and Jets 2.0) are all part of the Winnipeg Jets family. The goals scored by Dale Hawerchuk and Teemu Selanne mean more to us than those by Ilya Kovalchuk. We remember that overtime goal scored by Dave Ellett in the playoffs against Edmonton in which we went up 3 games to 1. We remember Bobby Hull signing his contract at Portage and Main as well as the 3 Avco Cups the Jets won during the 1970s. We remember Teemu Selanne's record breaking rookie season. We remember all the good and bad that happened to our Jets over the years but one thing is certain, we the fans never rejected them. It was never us that gave up on them. We’ve got the name back that we wanted and getting the records of Jets 1.0 would be nice as well but we’ll definitely carry on whether or not the NHL gives them to us. The other major leagues have done it so there's no reason it can't be done by the NHL.

 

[Captain Bowie]

It should not be that difficult to have team records remain with the city where they occurred if that is what the fans in that particular city want.

It's too late though. The NHL/Jets didn't do that already.

If when the Jets moved, the Coyotes Owners decided to not take the history along with them, it would be different. But they did. The history you are talking about is already attributed to another franchise. You can't really take it away from one to give it to another.

It would also be different if the team simply folded, and the history just sat in limbo for a period of time. Again this is not the case.

No one is taking the history away from the city of Winnipeg or the people there. Bobby Hull, Dale Hawerchuk et al were still Jets, they still did what they did in Winnipeg. It just happens to not be for the same franchise that is there now.

 

[mrhockey193195]

The biggest issue is the continuity of players through the relocation. With both WPG/PHX and ATL/WPG, the issue was that the teams (immediately before and immediately after) were mediocre at best, horrible at worst. So the continuity of players was an afterthought.

But take QUE/COL, we will always associate those two teams as part of the same franchise, because Sakic, Forsberg, Kamensky, Foote, Nolan, etc. all transferred with the team...and then that team won the cup.

At least, that seems to be part of the problem in my head.

 

[DowntownBooster]

It's too late though. The NHL/Jets didn't do that already.

If when the Jets moved, the Coyotes Owners decided to not take the history along with them, it would be different. But they did. The history you are talking about is already attributed to another franchise. You can't really take it away from one to give it to another.

It would also be different if the team simply folded, and the history just sat in limbo for a period of time. Again this is not the case.

No one is taking the history away from the city of Winnipeg or the people there. Bobby Hull, Dale Hawerchuk et al were still Jets, they still did what they did in Winnipeg. It just happens to not be for the same franchise that is there now.

I would point out though that it has been done by the NBA in regards to the Charlotte Hornets/New Orleans Pelicans franchise. The only difference is that Charlotte had another franchise (the Bobcats) after the Hornets departed for New Orleans which made that situation more complicated than the Jets would be as we didn't have another NHL after Jets 1.0 left for Phoenix. All that is required is for the Jets 1.0 records to be separated from the Coyotes and given to Jets 2.0 so they can be combined. The Coyotes records would start as of 1996/97 and the Thrashers records could be treated like the California Golden Seals/Cleveland Barons. Cleveland merged with the Minnesota North Stars but the records were not carried forward. That doesn't mean the players stats would disappear from the NHL records or that the team name wouldn't show in the standings for the years the team was playing. The NHL managed through the Barons/North Stars predicament so it's not beyond the capability of the league to accommodate a joining of the Jets 1.0 and 2.0 records.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I would point out though that it has been done by the NBA in regards to the Charlotte Hornets/New Orleans Pelicans franchise. The only difference is that Charlotte had another franchise (the Bobcats) after the Hornets departed for New Orleans which made that situation more complicated than the Jets would be as we didn't have another NHL after Jets 1.0 left for Phoenix. All that is required is for the Jets 1.0 records to be separated from the Coyotes and given to Jets 2.0 so they can be combined. The Coyotes records would start as of 1996/97 and the Thrashers records could be treated like the California Golden Seals/Cleveland Barons. Cleveland merged with the Minnesota North Stars but the records were not carried forward. That doesn't mean the players stats would disappear from the NHL records or that the team name wouldn't show in the standings for the years the team was playing. The NHL managed through the Barons/North Stars predicament so it's not beyond the capability of the league to accommodate a joining of the Jets 1.0 and 2.0 records.

I understand the mechanics of what the proposal is and how it would work. I don't think it should though. I also don't follow the NBA close enough to understand the nuances of what really went down. Frankly I don't really care what happened in the NBA either. They are not the NHL.

It just doesn't seem right to me. What happens to Shane Doan? He was drafted by one franchise, played his rookie season with that franchise, but somehow played the rest of his career with another franchise despite never being traded or signing as a free agent?

 

[DowntownBooster]

It just doesn't seem right to me. What happens to Shane Doan? He was drafted by one franchise, played his rookie season with that franchise, but somehow played the rest of his career with another franchise despite never being traded or signing as a free agent?

It would be no different than Al McAdam who played for California and moved with the franchise to Cleveland and again to Minnesota when the Barons and North Stars merged. His stats from the Seals/Barons were not included with those of the North Stars but all his scoring stats remain with the league including which teams he played for.

 

[Captain Bowie]

It would be no different than Al McAdam who played for California and moved with the franchise to Cleveland and again to Minnesota when the Barons and North Stars merged. His stats from the Seals/Barons were not included with those of the North Stars but all his scoring stats remain with the league including which teams he played for.

Would his rookie season numbers be subtracted from all of his franchise records for the Jets/Coyotes?

 

[DowntownBooster]

Would his rookie season numbers be subtracted from all of his franchise records for the Jets/Coyotes?

Yes, he'd be a rookie who played for the Winnipeg Jets. His stats for the Coyotes would then begin as of the 1996-97 season. He would still be the franchise record holder for the Coyotes even without including the one year with the Jets. It's unlikely anyone will break his Coyotes records anyway. Most of the players behind him on individual stat lists are former Winnipeg Jets players so even if you removed their names, Doan would be well ahead of any other Coyotes players.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Yes, he'd be a rookie who played for the Winnipeg Jets. His stats for the Coyotes would then begin as of the 1996-97 season. He would still be the franchise record holder for the Coyotes even without including the one year with the Jets. It's unlikely anyone will break his Coyotes records anyway. Most of the players behind him on individual stat lists are former Winnipeg Jets players so even if you removed their names, Doan would be well ahead of any other Coyotes players.

Does that seem fair? What if Clayton Keller comes along and passes his Coyotes only numbers, but wouldn't have passed his numbers including his rookie year? Would he deserve to be the franchise leader?

Having this history doesn't stop hockey fans in Winnipeg from remembering the original franchise or the players that played for it. No one can take those memories. But connecting it to the new franchise just does not make any sense to me. They are completely separate franchises.

 

[DowntownBooster]

Does that seem fair? What if Clayton Keller comes along and passes his Coyotes only numbers, but wouldn't have passed his numbers including his rookie year? Would he deserve to be the franchise leader?

It's highly unlikely that any player will remain with the Coyotes longer than Doan. Players are seldom that loyal anymore. Also, his points with the Jets during his rookie season aren't those of an all-star that year anyway. He will probably hold most Coyotes records for a long, long time. Regardless of the number of seasons he played with the Jets/Coyotes or just the Coyotes, no one will be able to match Gordie Howe's 25 seasons with Detroit. Losing that one year of stats with the Jets wouldn't make that much of a difference for Doan overall anyway.

 

[Captain Bowie]

It's highly unlikely that any player will remain with the Coyotes longer than Doan. Players are seldom that loyal anymore. Also, his points with the Jets during his rookie season aren't those of an all-star that year anyway. He will probably hold most Coyotes records for a long, long time. Regardless of the number of seasons he played with the Jets/Coyotes or just the Coyotes, no one will be able to match Gordie Howe's 25 seasons with Detroit. Losing that one year of stats with the Jets wouldn't make that much of a difference for Doan overall anyway.

Good job not answering the question, and somehow bring up Gordie Howe of all people up for some unknown reason.

 

[DowntownBooster]

Good job not answering the question, and somehow bring up Gordie Howe of all people up for some unknown reason.

The point I was trying to emphasize but which you seem to be overlooking is that it's highly unlikely that that someone will break his Coyotes records even if you took away his stats from the one year with the Jets. I don't think it's significant enough to worry about whether it's fair to Doan to lose that one year just in case someone may actually pass him. The reason why I brought up Howe was because of the number of years that Doan played with the Jets/Coyotes franchise (21 as you would already know) which will most likely not be matched by any future Coyotes player even if you removed Doan's one season as a Jet. Doan was unable to match Howe's record for number of years with one franchise. Those type of records for number of years with one team (like Howe and Doan) will not likely be matched by future players due to the fact that players just aren't as loyal to one team anymore along with the challenge of teams to keep players long term with the advent of free agency.

 

[Captain Bowie]

The point I was trying to emphasize but which you seem to be overlooking is that it's highly unlikely that that someone will break his Coyotes records even if you took away his stats from the one year with the Jets. I don't think it's significant enough to worry about whether it's fair to Doan to lose that one year just in case someone may actually pass him. The reason why I brought up Howe was because of the number of years that Doan played with the Jets/Coyotes franchise (21 as you would already know) which will most likely not be matched by any future Coyotes player even if you removed Doan's one season as a Jet. Doan was unable to match Howe's record for number of years with one franchise. Those type of records for number of years with one team (like Howe and Doan) will not likely be matched by future players due to the fact that players just aren't as loyal to one team anymore along with the challenge of teams to keep players long term with the advent of free agency.

A guy as talented as Keller could easily get to 800-900 points for the Coyotes it wouldn't likely take him close to 21 seasons to do it.

Anyways this was obviously not my main point or my main problem with the transferring histories idea. No point in continuing this thought experiment any more. I think I've been clear in what my objections are. Like I said from the start I do have sympathy for Winnipeg hockey fans, but I just can't make the idea sit right with me not matter how people have tried to justify it.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

That doesn't make any sense because the Jets team has nothing to do with the former Jets.

I guess Vancouver Canucks can have Stanley cup banners at Rogers Arena because Millionaires won the cup before. It's always been my dream to have the Canucks win the cup so I guess my dream came true

The Canucks will never win a Stanley Cup.

 

[DowntownBooster]

A guy as talented as Keller could easily get to 800-900 points for the Coyotes it wouldn't likely take him close to 21 seasons to do it.

Anyways this was obviously not my main point or my main problem with the transferring histories idea. No point in continuing this thought experiment any more. I think I've been clear in what my objections are. Like I said from the start I do have sympathy for Winnipeg hockey fans, but I just can't make the idea sit right with me not matter how people have tried to justify it.

That's quite alright A o S. We can agree to disagree on our overall viewpoint on this topic. I actually do understand where you're coming from on this and that the majority of fans follow your line of thought. I know the situation for Winnipeg is unique in that we follow or our team very closely and hold on to our memories with a passion.

 

[Boxscore]

I just wish the Jets would go back to the Winter Classic uniforms (retro WHA ones) for good. Actually, I would prefer the 80's Hawerchuk uniforms the most - they were gorgeous.