Puck Dogg
Puck life
- Mar 13, 2006
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There's like two distinct team bloodlines and the current Jets have nothing else in common with the WHA- based Jets aside team name.
From Wikipedia:
Why can't NHL give Jets their history back?
- Thread starter BKIslandersFan
- Start date
There's like two distinct team bloodlines and the current Jets have nothing else in common with the WHA- based Jets aside team name.
From Wikipedia:
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
As someone who lived in Charlotte during the entirety of the original Hornets' existence, all the way through the debacle of their relocation and the Bobcats expansion and then (from a slight distance in Raleigh) their re-branding as the Hornets, I can honestly say that it makes a difference to me that the two franchises share a history.
I had NO interest in the Bobcats. None, zero. It was like having the Washington Generals in town, they didn't represent me and I couldn't have cared less about their results. The Hornets, on the other hand, were a huge part of the city's culture and some of my formative memories as a sports fan. Actually not unlike Winnipeg's love affair with the current Jets, a small one-sport city in an area where the sport has a long history. It'll never be like that again, given what transpired in between, but at least there's some connection to what we remembered as a city.
So AFAIC, the Hornets went away in 2002 and came back in 2014. The connection to the original name, colors, and history makes all the difference in how I identify with them. It's a better way to approach relocation, and I wouldn't mind at all if this was addressed for not only Winnipeg but also Colorado and Minnesota.
I had NO interest in the Bobcats. None, zero. It was like having the Washington Generals in town, they didn't represent me and I couldn't have cared less about their results. The Hornets, on the other hand, were a huge part of the city's culture and some of my formative memories as a sports fan. Actually not unlike Winnipeg's love affair with the current Jets, a small one-sport city in an area where the sport has a long history. It'll never be like that again, given what transpired in between, but at least there's some connection to what we remembered as a city.
So AFAIC, the Hornets went away in 2002 and came back in 2014. The connection to the original name, colors, and history makes all the difference in how I identify with them. It's a better way to approach relocation, and I wouldn't mind at all if this was addressed for not only Winnipeg but also Colorado and Minnesota.
edog37
Registered User
The Ratbirds can't claim it because the name "Colts" is still in use. Not to mention, the Colts are still owned by the Irsay family (same ownership family who originally moved the team). Personally, I think if you relocate, you give up the right of a franchise's history & thus, you become an "expansion" team. The NFL got it right with the Browns. That history does belong to Cleveland, not Baltimore.
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2007
- 28,781
- 16,230
seems like the thread is really asking, why won't the NHL give the jets their history back?
feels like it's on the way in minnesota
Wild to wear North Stars jerseys ... in warmups
Minnesota and the North Stars: a love lost but not forgotten
Sign the Petition
feels like it's on the way in minnesota
Wild to wear North Stars jerseys ... in warmups
Minnesota and the North Stars: a love lost but not forgotten
Sign the Petition
BKIslandersFan
F*** off
I doubt Avs has any interest in bringing back Rockies brand (aside from the fact that it’s being used already) and it had no history to use.
mouser
Business of Hockey
I would argue the history does "belong" to the people of Cleveland, they lived through it. It just doesn't belong to the Cleveland Browns 2.0.
Besides the whole Montreal Expos / Washington Nationals situation. I would find it most amusing if the Nationals wanted the history of the Washington Senators, plus the other previous five iterations of the Washington Nationals in the National Association, Union Association, American Association and National League.
Even if we just go by the current MLB American/National Leagues, that's four different franchises of history:
- Defunct National League Washington Nationals 1.0
- Defunct National League Washington Senators 1.0
- American League Minnesota Twins -- Washington Senators 2.0
- American League Texas Rangers -- Washington Senators 3.0
DowntownBooster
Registered User
I’m always surprised by how much opposition there is to linking the history of Jets 1.0 to that of Jets 2.0. Some people get so upset by the suggestion that it’s almost like they take it as a personal attack against them. Unlike the example given regarding the Vancouver Millionaires and Vancouver Canucks, the fans in Winnipeg that supported the Jets from 1972-1996 are the same (along with a new generation) as those that are following the current Jets. Players that donned the Jets uniforms from 1972-1996 are still around (except a few that have passed away) and view their years playing here as belonging to Winnipeg. I really don’t understand why so many get upset by this issue. The majority of us in Winnipeg view all players that wore a Jets uniform as being part of the Winnipeg Jets family.
In regards to team records and how they can be separated when a team relocates, it’s as simple as treating it like a player being traded from team A to team B. For example, when Dale Hawerchuk was traded from Winnipeg to Buffalo for Phil Housley, it didn’t mean his overall NHL records didn’t count anymore. The league stats are still there. However, Buffalo didn’t include Hawerchuk’s stats from Winnipeg as part of their history. His points that he got with the Jets remained with the Jets, likewise, those earned by Housley in Buffalo remained as part of the Sabres history when he joined the Jets.
When the Cleveland Barons merged with the Minnesota North Stars following the 1977-78 season, the player stats of the Barons did not become part of the North Stars records. Look up the records of Al McAdam of the North Stars. He played 6 seasons with Minnesota following 2 seasons in Cleveland and prior to that he played 2 seasons with California. When you check the history of players with the Minnesota North Stars, it only lists his seasons with them from the time he wore a North Stars uniform. Also, the team records from the California Golden Seals and Cleveland Barons are not included with the Minnesota North Stars. It doesn’t mean the stats disappear from the NHL records altogether just because they didn’t follow the franchise when it merged with Minnesota.
It’s not like we don’t understand the original Jets were sold to a group that moved them to Phoenix. We simply believe the Coyotes records should be effective as of the date the team began operations there. It doesn’t mean the players stats from their time in Winnipeg would disappear from NHL records but instead just not be included as part of Coyotes history. It really shouldn’t be a problem treating the Jets 1.0 and Coyotes as separate entities.
In regards to team records and how they can be separated when a team relocates, it’s as simple as treating it like a player being traded from team A to team B. For example, when Dale Hawerchuk was traded from Winnipeg to Buffalo for Phil Housley, it didn’t mean his overall NHL records didn’t count anymore. The league stats are still there. However, Buffalo didn’t include Hawerchuk’s stats from Winnipeg as part of their history. His points that he got with the Jets remained with the Jets, likewise, those earned by Housley in Buffalo remained as part of the Sabres history when he joined the Jets.
When the Cleveland Barons merged with the Minnesota North Stars following the 1977-78 season, the player stats of the Barons did not become part of the North Stars records. Look up the records of Al McAdam of the North Stars. He played 6 seasons with Minnesota following 2 seasons in Cleveland and prior to that he played 2 seasons with California. When you check the history of players with the Minnesota North Stars, it only lists his seasons with them from the time he wore a North Stars uniform. Also, the team records from the California Golden Seals and Cleveland Barons are not included with the Minnesota North Stars. It doesn’t mean the stats disappear from the NHL records altogether just because they didn’t follow the franchise when it merged with Minnesota.
It’s not like we don’t understand the original Jets were sold to a group that moved them to Phoenix. We simply believe the Coyotes records should be effective as of the date the team began operations there. It doesn’t mean the players stats from their time in Winnipeg would disappear from NHL records but instead just not be included as part of Coyotes history. It really shouldn’t be a problem treating the Jets 1.0 and Coyotes as separate entities.
edog37
Registered User
Technically, the Penguins used the history of the Pittsburgh Pirates (NHL Team--1920s) to justify the switch in colors from blue & white to black & gold. It pissed off Boston, but that's fine with me. Anytime an O6 team gets tweaked, it's a good day. Point is, cities do own history. For example, the Rams won SB 34 while based in St Louis. To me, that is St Louis history, not LA. In the case you cite above, if the Nats want all the DC baseball history, they can have it. It's not like it's a grand history, but to each their own.....
edog37
Registered User
I’m always surprised by how much opposition there is to linking the history of Jets 1.0 to that of Jets 2.0. Some people get so upset by the suggestion that it’s almost like they take it as a personal attack against them. Unlike the example given regarding the Vancouver Millionaires and Vancouver Canucks, the fans in Winnipeg that supported the Jets from 1972-1996 are the same (along with a new generation) as those that are following the current Jets. Players that donned the Jets uniforms from 1972-1996 are still around (except a few that have passed away) and view their years playing here as belonging to Winnipeg. I really don’t understand why so many get upset by this issue. The majority of us in Winnipeg view all players that wore a Jets uniform as being part of the Winnipeg Jets family.
In regards to team records and how they can be separated when a team relocates, it’s as simple as treating it like a player being traded from team A to team B. For example, when Dale Hawerchuk was traded from Winnipeg to Buffalo for Phil Housley, it didn’t mean his overall NHL records didn’t count anymore. The league stats are still there. However, Buffalo didn’t include Hawerchuk’s stats from Winnipeg as part of their history. His points that he got with the Jets remained with the Jets, likewise, those earned by Housley in Buffalo remained as part of the Sabres history when he joined the Jets.
When the Cleveland Barons merged with the Minnesota North Stars following the 1977-78 season, the player stats of the Barons did not become part of the North Stars records. Look up the records of Al McAdam of the North Stars. He played 6 seasons with Minnesota following 2 seasons in Cleveland and prior to that he played 2 seasons with California. When you check the history of players with the Minnesota North Stars, it only lists his seasons with them from the time he wore a North Stars uniform. Also, the team records from the California Golden Seals and Cleveland Barons are not included with the Minnesota North Stars. It doesn’t mean the stats disappear from the NHL records altogether just because they didn’t follow the franchise when it merged with Minnesota.
It’s not like we don’t understand the original Jets were sold to a group that moved them to Phoenix. We simply believe the Coyotes records should be effective as of the date the team began operations there. It doesn’t mean the players stats from their time in Winnipeg would disappear from NHL records but instead just not be included as part of Coyotes history. It really shouldn’t be a problem treating the Jets 1.0 and Coyotes as separate entities.
Agreed. What makes it weirder is that you had a team called the Winnipeg Jets who moved to Arizona (& still exists) plus you now have another team called the Winnipeg Jets who moved from Atlanta. In my view, franchise history belongs to the cities. Especially in cases where public monies were used to either prop a team up &/or give them an arena. Do the Coyotes hang the Jets' AVCO Cup banners in their barn? It would be kinda weird if they did & in truth, why would the fans want to see it? Here's another area where it gets convoluted....teams that relocated don't celebrate their overall years of existence, but rather how long they have been in a certain location. Dallas didn't have a 50th patch last year like the Pens, Flyers, Blues & Kings even though they came into the league as the North Stars the same year. But they have marked how many years they have been in Dallas in 2013 & this season. Let the histories of teams remain with the cities where they actually occurred....
Jumptheshark
Rebooting myself
Johnny Engine
Moderator
- Jul 29, 2009
- 4,979
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I don't think it's too much trouble to just define your terms when you're talking about records, no?
Dale Hawerchuk scored the most points of any player in Winnipeg, but he's second in franchise scoring for the Arizona Coyotes, and Ilya Kovalchuk is the franchise leader for the current Jets. Blake Wheeler is second in franchise scoring for the Jets, but he's fourth in points scored in Winnipeg after Hawerchuk, MacLean and Steen. We all get what those mean, right?
As for trotting out alumni, that's a marketing exercise anyway, and you're going to get much more of a rise out of a Winnipeg crowd by giving them Teemu Sellanne instead of Mark Savard. Heck, you'd probably get more out of Manitoba boy Ed Belfour than you would from Savard, and he didn't play for either franchise.
Dale Hawerchuk scored the most points of any player in Winnipeg, but he's second in franchise scoring for the Arizona Coyotes, and Ilya Kovalchuk is the franchise leader for the current Jets. Blake Wheeler is second in franchise scoring for the Jets, but he's fourth in points scored in Winnipeg after Hawerchuk, MacLean and Steen. We all get what those mean, right?
As for trotting out alumni, that's a marketing exercise anyway, and you're going to get much more of a rise out of a Winnipeg crowd by giving them Teemu Sellanne instead of Mark Savard. Heck, you'd probably get more out of Manitoba boy Ed Belfour than you would from Savard, and he didn't play for either franchise.
TheMoreYouKnow
Registered User
The Nats already essentially claim the history of the other Washington franchises (including the Negro league team). For example, they often mention Frank Howard and I'm pretty sure I've seen his name and photos of him in Nats Park. They do, however, also claim notable Expos like Raines and Carter. Obviously as a team without much of a history itself the Nats try to claim as much glory and tradition as somehow possible. I would hope that if Montreal gets a new team that (1) it's called the Expos and (2) they get their history back.
Newsworthy
Registered User
If it was the Winnipeg Thrashers instead of Jets would you still have this a rgument?
Because that's all this is.
Atlanta has a history also.
Does Calgary feel the same way?
What about Nordique fans who watched the Avalanche win Cups in Colorado?
Because that's all this is.
Atlanta has a history also.
Does Calgary feel the same way?
What about Nordique fans who watched the Avalanche win Cups in Colorado?
tony d
Registered User
DowntownBooster
Registered User
Why would Calgary feel the same way? They never lost their original team like Winnipeg did. The situations are quite different. However, I would speculate that it might not bother Calgary's fans if the Atlanta Flames records were removed from those of the Calgary Flames. I think they're probably more concerned with the records that occurred after the team relocated to Calgary. On the other hand, Calgary fans might be okay with keeping the records from Atlanta since they didn't previously have their own team.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
I can't give this thread more than 30 seconds of attention because the title is inane.
The "Jets" is a franchise which went to Phoenix and thus took their history with them.
(The fact that later the name was allowed to go to anothe rteam is beside the point, is incidental.)
"Winnipeg" as a city and a fan base is a different animal. Should the NHL give the CITY AND ITS FANS the statistics of whatever team(s) played there? Thatr's a different question.
The "Jets" is a franchise which went to Phoenix and thus took their history with them.
(The fact that later the name was allowed to go to anothe rteam is beside the point, is incidental.)
"Winnipeg" as a city and a fan base is a different animal. Should the NHL give the CITY AND ITS FANS the statistics of whatever team(s) played there? Thatr's a different question.
Captain Bowie
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2012
- 27,139
- 4,414
I can totally understand where people in Winnipeg are coming from on this, but I just cannot make the logic of it sit right with me. When a franchise moves, it's entire history moves with it, full stop.
If the original Jets simply folded and the coyotes came in as a brand new franchise, and then the Thrashers folded and the new Jets came in as a brand new franchise, I would have an easier time accepting it.
How would the Thrashers era history and stats be treated? As if they existed and then vanished?
If the original Jets simply folded and the coyotes came in as a brand new franchise, and then the Thrashers folded and the new Jets came in as a brand new franchise, I would have an easier time accepting it.
How would the Thrashers era history and stats be treated? As if they existed and then vanished?
Killion
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2010
- 36,763
- 3,215
....
why yes, yes its is..... Like something from the desk of the editor of a British tabloid or maybe a copy writer who's job it is is to come up with screaming sensationalist headlines & story banners.... The insinuation here that the NHL is Dr. Evil & is holding Winnipegs Mojo for ransom after awakening from its cryogenic slumbers.... the Wicked Witch of the West absconding with Toto... the cities records, its history & pride carried away by flying monkee's & they wont give them back....That theres some campaign underway, lobbying effort or whatever, that Mark Chipman & David Thomson are demanding the NHL give them back the Sacred Scrolls, all those records & accomplishments, all those joys & sorrows, all the agonies & ecstasies that were hoovered up by the Tornado back in 96, depositing the lot in the desert, the Valley of the Sun... lost and abandoned... buried by the sands of time... forgotten.... and now they want them back dammit. Thing is, those things, all the intangibles, the really important things, they never actually left Winnipeg. Lived on in the hearts & minds of the people, still live on, will live on forever. That like Dorothy & the Wizard of Oz, it was all just a bad dream, their home, have always been home, that there is no place like home...
As for the headline, bannerline of the thread, its a "grabber", keeper VanIsle. Click bait. Money in the bank.
Last edited:
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Killion
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2010
- 36,763
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Crave Media. Owners of this site, others. The more eyeballs,
higher the hitcounts, more they can charge for advertising.
Howie Hodge
Zombie Woof
No way...
Ever. Ever....
Because Andrew Copp would then have to relinquish his number NINE............
Ever. Ever....
Because Andrew Copp would then have to relinquish his number NINE............
BKIslandersFan
F*** off
100% agreed and once again THERE IS A PRECEDENCE FOR THIS. I did not come up with this idea from thin air.I’m always surprised by how much opposition there is to linking the history of Jets 1.0 to that of Jets 2.0. Some people get so upset by the suggestion that it’s almost like they take it as a personal attack against them. Unlike the example given regarding the Vancouver Millionaires and Vancouver Canucks, the fans in Winnipeg that supported the Jets from 1972-1996 are the same (along with a new generation) as those that are following the current Jets. Players that donned the Jets uniforms from 1972-1996 are still around (except a few that have passed away) and view their years playing here as belonging to Winnipeg. I really don’t understand why so many get upset by this issue. The majority of us in Winnipeg view all players that wore a Jets uniform as being part of the Winnipeg Jets family.
In regards to team records and how they can be separated when a team relocates, it’s as simple as treating it like a player being traded from team A to team B. For example, when Dale Hawerchuk was traded from Winnipeg to Buffalo for Phil Housley, it didn’t mean his overall NHL records didn’t count anymore. The league stats are still there. However, Buffalo didn’t include Hawerchuk’s stats from Winnipeg as part of their history. His points that he got with the Jets remained with the Jets, likewise, those earned by Housley in Buffalo remained as part of the Sabres history when he joined the Jets.
When the Cleveland Barons merged with the Minnesota North Stars following the 1977-78 season, the player stats of the Barons did not become part of the North Stars records. Look up the records of Al McAdam of the North Stars. He played 6 seasons with Minnesota following 2 seasons in Cleveland and prior to that he played 2 seasons with California. When you check the history of players with the Minnesota North Stars, it only lists his seasons with them from the time he wore a North Stars uniform. Also, the team records from the California Golden Seals and Cleveland Barons are not included with the Minnesota North Stars. It doesn’t mean the stats disappear from the NHL records altogether just because they didn’t follow the franchise when it merged with Minnesota.
It’s not like we don’t understand the original Jets were sold to a group that moved them to Phoenix. We simply believe the Coyotes records should be effective as of the date the team began operations there. It doesn’t mean the players stats from their time in Winnipeg would disappear from NHL records but instead just not be included as part of Coyotes history. It really shouldn’t be a problem treating the Jets 1.0 and Coyotes as separate entities.
DowntownBooster
Registered User
I'm not sure if your comments are tongue-in-cheek H H, but since your avatar is that of Bobby Hull who wore number 9 with the Jets, I know that you are already aware of the Jets history. However, for others that may not know, Hull's number 9 was retired by Jets 1.0 on February 19, 1989. At the time the number was retired, it had been used by Doug Smail who then switched to number 12.
The only other number to be retired by Jets 1.0 was 25 for Thomas Steen. With the NHL's return to Winnipeg in 2011, both numbers have been used by players of Jets 2.0. Prior to Andrew Copp, number 9 was used by Evander Kane while number 25 has been used by Brett Maclean, Zach Redmond and currently by Paul Stastny.
Based on the decision by TNSE to implement the Winnipeg Jets Hall of Fame in 2016, I would assume they have made the decision to honor players by raising a banner with their name and number while leaving the number in circulation. In 2016, banners were raised for Bobby Hull (9), Anders Hedberg (15) and Ulf Nilsson (14). The following year in 2017, a banner was raised for Dale Hawerchuk (10).
The practice of honoring players by raising a banner with their name and number while leaving the number in circulation was done previously by the Toronto Maple Leafs before they changed the policy a couple of years ago and began retiring numbers instead. I actually prefer the practice of leaving all numbers in circulation to be used by others while still honoring previous players by raising a banner with their name and number.
I think the fans enjoy seeing banners to remind them of their heroes of the past while at the same time, keeping all numbers in circulation allows players the option to wear their own favorite number. The best of both worlds.
Big Phil
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2003
- 31,703
- 4,146
It is a tricky thing. You think of the "Jets" as today's team AND the 1980s/1990s versions. Heck, you think of them as Bobby Hull's Jets too. But they are in city name alone, not in franchise. The Arizona Coyotes are technically still a continuation of the original Winnipeg Jets. I would say use a different nickname if you want more originality, but they didn't. They went back to Jets. Which makes sense of course as they never should have left Winnipeg in the first place. It is just a technicality of course either way. If you want to think of the Jets of the 1980s as today's team, go nuts, it is at least the same city, maybe not same franchise.
As for the Cleveland Browns, that was another big mistake and they were only gone three years. Winnipeg was gone 15. I think there was a grassroots movement to get the Browns back right from the beginning and they did.
But could Brooklyn be the "Dodgers" again? No, they couldn't. It has just been too long.
As for the Cleveland Browns, that was another big mistake and they were only gone three years. Winnipeg was gone 15. I think there was a grassroots movement to get the Browns back right from the beginning and they did.
But could Brooklyn be the "Dodgers" again? No, they couldn't. It has just been too long.
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