Where does Albert Pujols rank among all-time greats?

[Terry Yake]

Have any Asians been caught lying about their age?

Where there's smoke, there's fire...

If there's no smoke, people don't generally look for a fire...

couple chinese NBA players lied about their ages

wang zhizhi and yi jianlian

 

[Maestro84]

Yeah, he's 40, of course he's going to have trouble running the bases in comparison to other players, especially when you consider his body and injury history.

Through his age 36 season, he was still a 1.5+ WAR player. He's had elbow and wrist injuries, to go with a handful of lower-body injuries.

Baustista's major dropoff started earlier than Pujols'. Ortiz was able to save his body by being a DH.

Albert had a 31 HR 119 RBI season in 2016, those are pretty darn good numbers no matter how you slice it. Obviously they still pale in comparison to his prime STL years but I don't think he became a true liability till his age 37 season in 2017.

2012-2016 on the Angels was clearly no longer prime Pujols but he still had some productive years (besides 2013 when he began struggling with injuries), but man starting in 2017, it's been alllllll downhill since then.

 

[bleedblue1223]

couple chinese NBA players lied about their ages

wang zhizhi and yi jianlian

And Shabazz Muhammad lied about his age too, and he was born here.

 

[Perennial]

In interviews, Albert has actually tripped up on several occasions. He’s given his real age away in the past, and double downed on it this spring in an interview with Yahoo Sports.

“I actually hit it off Octavio Dotel, I think I told you that,” Pujols said. “I was about about 12, 13, almost 13 years old.”

“And we go back, you know, 28 years later, and here I am.”​

28 + 13 = 41 for those of you scoring at home.
That comment was followed up this:

“Well, Dotel, I believe he’s like three or four years older than me.” Pujols said. “He was in the league above me, and it was actually like an intrasquad game.” ​

Dotel turns 45 on November 15th. That math leads right back to Albert being 41, maybe a tad older. Speculation by scouts is one thing, but these are Albert’s own words, words that have not been clarified since he podcasted this April.

Full article: The Albert Pujols age conundrum: is he as old as he says he is?

 

[bleedblue1223]

He said 12, almost 13, that means 12 + 28 = 40.

You expect Pujols to know the exact age difference between him and Dotel and what Dotel's age is?

That article was a pure fan smear to make it look like that 1 year would've made the difference between the Angels offering a contract that was dumb from the start and not offering the contract. That's just silly.

And it goes from saying he lied by 2 years to then lying by 1 year. Why would Pujols lie about his age by 2 years in high school? One year would've made more sense to get to college and pro ball faster. Why delay an entire year to getting to the pros or even just a regular middle-class job like this article is saying is why they lied in the first place. It also ignores the existence of a GED.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I get some Angels fans want to use the age as an excuse for the dumb contract they gave, but all Cardinals fans could've told you that 2011 Pujols wasn't the same Pujols, and a big decline was near. Yes, he was still elite, but he wasn't MVP caliber that he used to be. He didn't give you the same feeling in the batters box that he used to. It was the difference between a MVP type and a Matt Holliday type.

 

[Perennial]

Pujols' decline in his early 30's is nearly unprecedented for a player of his caliber, and there are only so many explanations for it...

He's been battling injuries
He came off PEDs
He's older than his listed age

Or perhaps it's some combination of the 3...

 

[Perennial]

He said 12, almost 13, that means 12 + 28 = 40.

You expect Pujols to know the exact age difference between him and Dotel and what Dotel's age is?

That article was a pure fan smear to make it look like that 1 year would've made the difference between the Angels offering a contract that was dumb from the start and not offering the contract. That's just silly.

And it goes from saying he lied by 2 years to then lying by 1 year. Why would Pujols lie about his age by 2 years in high school? One year would've made more sense to get to college and pro ball faster. Why delay an entire year to getting to the pros or even just a regular middle-class job like this article is saying is why they lied in the first place. It also ignores the existence of a GED.

According to Baseball Reference, Pujols was born in 1980, Dotel was born in '73...

It seems very unlikely that a 12 - 13 year old would be facing a pitcher who is 7 years older than he is

The explanation I read was that if he hadn't lied about his age, he wouldn't have been eligible to attend high school...

 

[bleedblue1223]

The explanation I read was that if he hadn't lied about his age, he wouldn't have been eligible to attend high school...

He played high school ball for 2 years, so by that logic, he lied by 2 years. Then that SB Nation post argues that he lied by 1 year based on the Dotel evidence. That post in inconsistent and using very flimsy "evidence".

 

[bleedblue1223]

Pujols' decline in his early 30's is nearly unprecedented for a player of his caliber, and there are only so many explanations for it...

He's been battling injuries
He came off PEDs
He's older than his listed age

Or perhaps it's some combination of the 3...

How is it unprecedented? People said he peaked too early arguing that when he came in he was older 21. By that logic, a lot of other star players have lied. Plenty of star players declined liked Pujols. Pujols declined from elite caliber after the 2012 season, but was still really good through 2016, his age 36 season.

Compare it to another generational player that got hit with injuries, and he's similar to Griffey. Bautista started his major decline earlier.

There is nothing crazy about his decline, even if injuries weren't a factor, which they were.

 

[Perennial]

He played high school ball for 2 years, so by that logic, he lied by 2 years. Then that SB Nation post argues that he lied by 1 year based on the Dotel evidence. That post in inconsistent and using very flimsy "evidence".

It doesn't mean he lied by 2 years...

If he was 20, but said he was 16, or if he was 18, and said he was 16...

Either way, he would've been put in the same grade...

 

[bleedblue1223]

It doesn't mean he lied by 2 years...

If he was 20, but said he was 16, or if he was 18, and said he was 16...

Either way, he would've been put in the same grade...

To be a junior, he would've lied by at least 2 years. That post used the logic to get a diploma for a regular job. If that's the case, why lie to be a junior and not a senior? And are we just ignoring the ability to just get a GED to get a regular job?

If he lied to be a pro ball player to make sure he got a college scholarship, again, why lie to be a junior to delay him from getting a signing bonus from pro club?

Then, that article uses the Dotel stuff to argue that he only lied by one year. That author is arguing that Pujols knows the exact age that Dotel was and the difference between them in age, and the age he was when he played against him. I couldn't answer those questions about youth sports I played and a particular player I played against.

 

[Perennial]

How is it unprecedented? People said he peaked too early arguing that when he came in he was older 21. By that logic, a lot of other star players have lied. Plenty of star players declined liked Pujols. Pujols declined from elite caliber after the 2012 season, but was still really good through 2016, his age 36 season.

Compare it to another generational player that got hit with injuries, and he's similar to Griffey. Bautista started his major decline earlier.

There is nothing crazy about his decline, even if injuries weren't a factor, which they were.

I think Griffey is an unfair comparison because injuries essentially derailed his career...

From age 31 - 34, Griffey averaged only 79 games per season, but his 162 game averages were...

33 HR, 89 RBI, .266 AVG, .360 OBP, .873 OPS


Bautista's 162 game averages from age 31 - 34...

41 HR, 112 RBI, .261 AVG, .377 OBP, .899 OPS


And Pujols' 162 game averages from age 31 - 34...

33 HR, 109 RBI, .280 AVG, .341 OBP, .835 OPS


You just don't see that drastic a drop off in production among all-time greats during that age range...

 

[Perennial]

To be a junior, he would've lied by at least 2 years. That post used the logic to get a diploma for a regular job. If that's the case, why lie to be a junior and not a senior? And are we just ignoring the ability to just get a GED to get a regular job?

If he lied to be a pro ball player to make sure he got a college scholarship, again, why lie to be a junior to delay him from getting a signing bonus from pro club?

Then, that article uses the Dotel stuff to argue that he only lied by one year. That author is arguing that Pujols knows the exact age that Dotel was and the difference between them in age, and the age he was when he played against him. I couldn't answer those questions about youth sports I played and a particular player I played against.

According to Pujols, Dotel was in the league above him, so it stands to reason Pujols would have an idea of how old he was...

 

[bleedblue1223]

And you are arguing those numbers for Pujols are significantly different from their's? Ignoring that Pujols' injuries played a factor in his decline? And I'm sure we can find many other players that declined either more or similarly. Did you honestly expect Pujols to have multiple MVP caliber seasons with the Angels?

 

[bleedblue1223]

According to Pujols, Dotel was in the league above him, so it stands to reason Pujols would have an idea of how old he was...

He probably had a rough idea in his head, but you are acting like it's some big gotcha because his head math and memory was off by a year? Really?

 

[Perennial]

He probably had a rough idea in his head, but you are acting like it's some big gotcha because his head math and memory was off by a year? Really?

According to Baseball Reference, Dotel was born in Nov. of '73, Pujols was born in Jan. of '80... that means there's more than a 6 year difference between them if we're to believe Pujols' listed age

If Pujols was 12 - 13 when he hit that HR off Dotel, it would mean Dotel was 18 - 19...

I find it hard to believe that any little league would have 12 and 13 year olds facing 18 - 19 year old pitchers...

 

[bleedblue1223]

Your whole argument is dependent on a 12 year old Pujols knowing the age of Dotel at that time, and a 40 year old Pujols remembering that difference. Real believable that is.

And who cares, I guess your point is that he defrauded the Angels? His decline based on his age is very much in line with normal declines, that was just a dumb contract from the beginning.

 

[Perennial]

Your whole argument is dependent on a 12 year old Pujols knowing the age of Dotel at that time, and a 40 year old Pujols remembering that difference. Real believable that is.

And who cares, I guess your point is that he defrauded the Angels? His decline based on his age is very much in line with normal declines, that was just a dumb contract from the beginning.

Pujols would know the age range of the kids in the league above him... I played organized sports growing up... I still remember the age ranges of the leagues I played in

And I don't have a point... I'm just presenting one possible explanation for his nearly unprecedented decline as an all-time great player...

 

[bleedblue1223]

It's not unprecedented. You act like he fell off the map at 30. He had a small decline in his earlier 30s that took him from MVP caliber to elite caliber. Then a bigger decline in his mid/late 30s. That's a typical decline. If it wasn't for his injuries, he could've lasted even longer.

Did you genuinely expect him to be MVP caliber in his mid/late 30s?

 

[Terry Yake]

pujols's decline isn't too different from cabrera's

both put up historically great numbers for a decade before tailing off. pujols after 2012 and cabrera after 2014. only difference is that cabrera's BA stayed above .300 for a couple more seasons and he hit above .280 the two seasons, while pujols's BA has been in the .240s since '17

 

[Perennial]

It's not unprecedented. You act like he fell off the map at 30. He had a small decline in his earlier 30s that took him from MVP caliber to elite caliber. Then a bigger decline in his mid/late 30s. That's a typical decline. If it wasn't for his injuries, he could've lasted even longer.

Did you genuinely expect him to be MVP caliber in his mid/late 30s?

Pujols' OPS dropped from 1.011 at age 30, down to .859 during his age 32 season... and that was the last time he posted an OPS above .800

So by 33 - which is not that old - he wasn't close to hitting at an elite level...

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

It's rare a player consistently puts up the same numbers for 15-20 years. It usually starts trending down around year 8-10 regardless of the reason(s).

Pujols is unlucky that this is 2020 and not 1990, because people would still think he's really good with those hr and rbi totals.

 

[Perennial]

pujols's decline isn't too different from cabrera's

both put up historically great numbers for a decade before tailing off. pujols after 2012 and cabrera after 2014. only difference is that cabrera's BA stayed above .300 for a couple more seasons and he hit above .280 the two seasons, while pujols's BA has been in the .240s since '17

Cabrera may have had a down season by his standards in 2014, but he rebounded to lead the league in AVG and OBP in 2015, and then followed that up with another Cabrera-like season in 2015...

It wasn't until 2017 - his age 34 season - that he showed a major decline in production

But, again, he bounced back in 2018 hitting .299, with a .395 OBP, and an .843 OPS, albeit in only 38 games

So, even though his numbers had dipped from his peak years, Cabrera was still able to rake at an all-star level as a 35 year old...

And while Cabrera's production has dropped considerably the last 2 seasons, it's possible that the steep decline could in part be attributed to that significant injury he sustained in 2018 that caused him to miss the majority of the season...

 

[Cas]

38 games isn't much of a sample size. Give him a full season in 2018 and my money is his final numbers look more like 2019 than they do 2016.

Pujols' decline isn't really unusual. Lots and lots of great players decline pretty quickly after turning 30.

Interestingly, I see Major League Baseball is still spreading myths about career RBI totals, though this blurb actually covers the discrepancy. Why does anyone still listen to Elias?