Welcome to (failed) TED Talk - TED is dead.

[Sinurgy]

I personally believe that, based on the pace and amount of development and demographic change on this side of town right now, the best-case scenario of the Coyotes being over here predated the area's ability to support it by at least 20 years.

This 100%. It's kind of ironic they existed the entire time the exponential curve was flat and right before the elbow, they leave. It's about as sub-optimal as you can get...so you know...Coyotes.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Went back and listened to the interview XG did at the draft and at least one of the sites they’re looking at is much larger than TED.

They are going to use the renderings from TED as a guide as well. (as in the arena design with full ceiling mounted video isn’t changing)

Good, one thing that I heard (late in the campaign) was asshat head mouth piece XG stating they were looking at auxiliary parking and shuttling game night patrons to the facility. Implication being they did not have enough parking. A larger plot will allow for parking that should be, as opposed to the ol’ sho horn approach.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Good, one thing that I heard (late in the campaign) was asshat head mouth piece XG stating they were looking at auxiliary parking and shuttling game night patrons to the facility. Implication being they did not have enough parking. A larger plot will allow for parking that should be, as opposed to the ol’ sho horn approach.

Yeah, that would have been an issue at the TED site, I think. Parking garages would have helped but those are some of the most expensive buildings in any development.

I think ideally Meruelo would want a site where he controls all the parking and keeps the revenue from it rather than sharing it or outsourcing it.

 

[Sinurgy]

But I also think that nobody looking for that sort of thing would go looking for it in the Fiesta Mall area, especially when the Galleria, Kierland Commons, and etc. are all up the road in Scottsdale.

haha yeah not even remotely, like not even in the same stratosphere. I went to the Cheba Hut over there a few months ago (love that place) and it's still pretty hoody. That doesn't bother me but it's a long ways from being a destination. It will need some serious gentrification and while some of that appears to be happening thanks to the light rail, it's still probably 15 years away from being gentrified.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

haha yeah not even remotely, like not even in the same stratosphere. I went to the Cheba Hut over there a few months ago (love that place) and it's still pretty hoody. That doesn't bother me but it's a long ways from being a destination. It will need some serious gentrification and while some of that appears to be happening thanks to the light rail, it's still probably 15 years away from being gentrified.

It's not an impossible task. Hell, the Kierland Commons area was dirt lots and inexpensive ranch-house suburbs when I was in high school at Horizon (I actually got ticketed for riding my dirt bike through there one afternoon) and now it's some of the most expensive real estate and destination areas in the whole Valley. So it can be done - but Kierland had the advantage of a development surge that basically ended up erasing the physical borders between north Scottsdale and Fountain Hills, so that shortened the process a bit. And even so, it took about a decade for it to really get its legs.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

haha yeah not even remotely, like not even in the same stratosphere. I went to the Cheba Hut over there a few months ago (love that place) and it's still pretty hoody. That doesn't bother me but it's a long ways from being a destination. It will need some serious gentrification and while some of that appears to be happening thanks to the light rail, it's still probably 15 years away from being gentrified.

Gentrification credited to the light rail? I haven’t noticed the affluent using the light rail.
All kidding aside, this begs the question: Does it need to be a high end destination?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Gentrification credited to the light rail? I haven’t noticed the affluent using the light rail.
All kidding aside, this begs the question: Does it need to be a high end destination?

It's all contextual. It doesn't have to be super high end if it's the only game in town, so to speak. But if you build within walking distance of other retail, hotel, and apartment/condo housing, you need to either up your game to distinguish your offerings from the others, or discount them sharply to make yours a better deal. And the Coyotes can't afford to do the latter in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

It's not an impossible task. Hell, the Kierland Commons area was dirt lots and inexpensive ranch-house suburbs when I was in high school at Horizon (I actually got ticketed for riding my dirt bike through there one afternoon) and now it's some of the most expensive real estate and destination areas in the whole Valley. So it can be done - but Kierland had the advantage of a development surge that basically ended up erasing the physical borders between north Scottsdale and Fountain Hills, so that shortened the process a bit. And even so, it took about a decade for it to really get its legs.

I don’t understand the physical borders between Scottsdale’s and Fountain Hills?
There was a vast expanse between Scottsdale and N Scottsdale, some of which still exists today. I don’t see how Fountain Hills comes into the discussion. For the record, I consider N Scottsdale to have been Pinnacle Peak area, where Jerry Nelson bought up a slew of land (I believe in early 70’s), think Pinnacle Peak and Pima roads and all points north to Carefree.

It's all contextual. It doesn't have to be super high end if it's the only game in town, so to speak. But if you build within walking distance of other retail, hotel, and apartment/condo housing, you need to either up your game to distinguish your offerings from the others, or discount them sharply to make yours a better deal. And the Coyotes can't afford to do the latter in any way, shape, or form.

People flock to the newest things, the trick is keeping ‘em coming.

 

[Sinurgy]

It's not an impossible task. Hell, the Kierland Commons area was dirt lots and inexpensive ranch-house suburbs when I was in high school at Horizon (I actually got ticketed for riding my dirt bike through there one afternoon) and now it's some of the most expensive real estate and destination areas in the whole Valley. So it can be done - but Kierland had the advantage of a development surge that basically ended up erasing the physical borders between north Scottsdale and Fountain Hills, so that shortened the process a bit. And even so, it took about a decade for it to really get its legs.

My ex lived up that way back in the day (went to Horizon as well actually) and a lot of those homes were pretty nice, they weren't your normal "middle class" type homes, I mean hers had a freaking tennis court! But yeah just north of her (she was basically Sweetwater and Shea) was all dirt and I would argue that's actually berry as it's easier to start from scratch in this case. Fiesta Mall area is definitely not either of those things, it's got a much steeper hill to climb. I agree it's not impossible, it would take a lot of money and effort though and I'm thinking 15 years might even be optimistic. Another thing worth mentioning is Scottsdale has the brand and it entices upscale development, Mesa absolutely does not.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Gentrification credited to the light rail? I haven’t noticed the affluent using the light rail.

Mmmm, not so much the affluent, but at least students/people with jobs. Apache Trail from...what...College? east to the city of Mesa, when the light rail was started, was run down motels (from when *it* was US60 and I-10 did not exist), auto shops, used auto dealerships...now, those are disappearing, being replaced by multistory boxy apartments. *those* are the people who would use valley metro.

 

[Sinurgy]

Gentrification credited to the light rail? I haven’t noticed the affluent using the light rail.
All kidding aside, this begs the question: Does it need to be a high end destination?

I should've said in part due to the light rail because while it's helped, the area still has a long way to go. I don't know if it absolutely has to be high end but if we are to buy into this whole "premium" ticket holders and corporate sponsors angle, it's a tough sell if you put it in an area that is clearly run down on top of not being centrally located.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I don’t understand the physical borders between Scottsdale’s and Fountain Hills?

Probably not my best phrasing. I should say that Fountain Hills and that area of North Scottsdale have basically more or less sprawled together over time.

My ex lived up that way back in the day (went to Horizon as well actually) and a lot of those homes were pretty nice, they weren't your normal "middle class" type homes, I mean hers had a freaking tennis court! But yeah just north of her (she was basically Sweetwater and Shea) was all dirt and I would argue that's actually berry as it's easier to start from scratch in this case. Fiesta Mall area is definitely not either of those things, it's got a much steeper hill to climb. I agree it's not impossible, it would take a lot of money and effort though and I'm thinking 15 years might even be optimistic. Another thing worth mentioning is Scottsdale has the brand and it entices upscale development, Mesa absolutely does not.

I lived in that area on and off from about 1978 until 2003, when I moved west. Went to school at Desert Shadows Elementary and Middle School, and then Horizon High. My parents moved to the Orange Tree golf course area at Shea and 64th Street after I graduated. That area is significantly different than the area where we lived up by Greenway and 60th Street. Orange Tree had (and still has) huge houses and upscale residences - lots of ball players and celebs had homes there when my parents lived there. My folks had a house right on the fairway with a tennis court. But the homes we lived in up by Horizon were much smaller, more run-of-the-mill types, and where Kierland is now was basically either empty space or mid-rent strip malls.

Depending on when your ex graduated, I might have known her... LOL

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Put an arena up and surrounding land and building owners will put up pubs, clubs, restaurants and shops to profit off of the crowds. The college kids from MCC will join in on the fun and you can have a mini Mill Avenue on Southern. 10-20 thousand crowd 40 times a year will drive "gentrification". It will take 5 years, not 15.

 

[TheLegend]

Their words, not mine.
I’m told the asshats are THE guys who can turn around distressed assets, surely they can create a destination with a clean slate!

There’s turning around assets which don’t require public votes and turning around assets which do.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

There’s turning around assets which don’t require public votes and turning around assets which do.

Understood, question becomes if they can indeed afford it (w/o vote), do they have the confidence to move forward.

Put an arena up and surrounding land and building owners will put up pubs, clubs, restaurants and shops to profit off of the crowds. The college kids from MCC will join in on the fun and you can have a mini Mill Avenue on Southern. 10-20 thousand crowd 40 times a year will drive "gentrification". It will take 5 years, not 15.

They can build all that shit themselves on 80 acres, AND have ample parking.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Put an arena up and surrounding land and building owners will put up pubs, clubs, restaurants and shops to profit off of the crowds. The college kids from MCC will join in on the fun and you can have a mini Mill Avenue on Southern. 10-20 thousand crowd 40 times a year will drive "gentrification". It will take 5 years, not 15.

That's a tremendously optimistic way to look at it, but what the hell, maybe we need some optimism for a change.

 

[TheLegend]

Good, one thing that I heard (late in the campaign) was asshat head mouth piece XG stating they were looking at auxiliary parking and shuttling game night patrons to the facility. Implication being they did not have enough parking. A larger plot will allow for parking that should be, as opposed to the ol’ sho horn approach.

Yeah, that would have been an issue at the TED site, I think. Parking garages would have helped but those are some of the most expensive buildings in any development.

I think ideally Meruelo would want a site where he controls all the parking and keeps the revenue from it rather than sharing it or outsourcing it.

They already had arrangements in place with most of the buildings next to TED. Plus the shuttle from the Metro station near SDS. Plus the 1,100 space structure next to the arena.

Parking wasn’t going to be that big an issue.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

They already had arrangements in place with most of the buildings next to TED. Plus the shuttle from the Metro station near SDS. Plus the 1,100 space structure next to the arena.

Parking wasn’t going to be that big an issue.

I remember XG stating they were looking at running shuttles from auxiliary lots. Possible he meant fro light rail and merely misspoke. When I heard, I assumed that a large portion of parking space would be used by residents.

 

[rt]

haha yeah not even remotely, like not even in the same stratosphere. I went to the Cheba Hut over there a few months ago (love that place) and it's still pretty hoody. That doesn't bother me but it's a long ways from being a destination. It will need some serious gentrification and while some of that appears to be happening thanks to the light rail, it's still probably 15 years away from being gentrified.

Fiesta District is quite rough. If I recall, it’s by far highest concentration of crime in Mesa and that city is not without other rough patches. I’m not so confident that it will be gentrified in 15 years. Mess has never invested in itself.

I was born in the hospital next to MCC and I lived two miles south of there on Alma School and Guadalupe from birth until college. When I bought my first house, I returned and purchased in the same neighborhood I grew up in. So it was really only in those handful of years in between high school graduation and buying a starter home that I wasn’t within a couple of miles of Fiesta mall.

I bought my current home in Gilbert about 8 years ago. Not because Gilbert is cheaper. It was more expensive. Not because Gilbert is more convenient. It’s further away from everything. But because Gilbert invests in itself snd Mesa doesn’t. The decline of the City of Mesa over the last 20 years had been staggering. Especially in that area.

 

[TheLegend]

I remember XG stating they were looking at running shuttles from auxiliary lots. Possible he meant fro light rail and merely misspoke. When I heard, I assumed that a large portion of parking space would be used by residents.

There was an arrangement for an auxiliary lot in an office complex across the Loop 202.

Much of this was due to meeting the traffic study requirements

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I bought my current home in Gilbert about 8 years ago. Not because Gilbert is cheaper. It was more expensive. Not because Gilbert is more convenient. It’s further away from everything. But because Gilbert invests in itself snd Mesa doesn’t. The decline of the City of Mesa over the last 20 years had been staggering. Especially in that area.

I know a lot of folks who now live in Gilbert who used to live in Mesa. They moved for the exact same reason you did. And I don't have any more of an explanation for why Mesa has deteriorated like it has, except that maybe it has to do with the ongoing sprawl that sees all the newest and nicest amenities popping up on the leading edge of it, while the cities left behind in the expansion can fall to seed if their administrators don't plan for it accordingly.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I know a lot of folks who now live in Gilbert who used to live in Mesa. They moved for the exact same reason you did. And I don't have any more of an explanation for why Mesa has deteriorated like it has, except that maybe it has to do with the ongoing sprawl that sees all the newest and nicest amenities popping up on the leading edge of it, while the cities left behind in the expansion can fall to seed if their administrators don't plan for it accordingly.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your explanation. That doesn’t mean an area can’t be revitalized… happens all the time.
Revitalization has been my point with Fiesta. I didn’t dream it up, it stems from the rhetoric of the asshats. If they improve distressed assets, Fiesta fits the bill.
Is the Fiesta area heavily Latino? If so, this should be their wheelhouse as well. How many “Latino” nights did they have last season, despite the crowd maybe being 1/10 of 1% Latino.

Edit: the implication of my last sentence is that they really don’t give a shit and merely use that as a tool for posturing.

 

[Sinurgy]

Fiesta District is quite rough. If I recall, it’s by far highest concentration of crime in Mesa and that city is not without other rough patches. I’m not so confident that it will be gentrified in 15 years. Mess has never invested in itself.

I was born in the hospital next to MCC and I lived two miles south of there on Alma School and Guadalupe from birth until college. When I bought my first house, I returned and purchased in the same neighborhood I grew up in. So it was really only in those handful of years in between high school graduation and buying a starter home that I wasn’t within a couple of miles of Fiesta mall.

I bought my current home in Gilbert about 8 years ago. Not because Gilbert is cheaper. It was more expensive. Not because Gilbert is more convenient. It’s further away from everything. But because Gilbert invests in itself snd Mesa doesn’t. The decline of the City of Mesa over the last 20 years had been staggering. Especially in that area.

You pretty much summed it up, Mesa has gone down hill for multiple decades now. These days it's pretty much exclusively known for it's M&M's...meth and Mormans. haha

 

[Coyotedroppings]

You pretty much summed it up, Mesa has gone down hill for multiple decades now. These days it's pretty much exclusively known for it's M&M's...meth and Mormans. haha

Do we all realize the Fiesta site is 1/2 mile outside of Tempe boundary?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

You pretty much summed it up, Mesa has gone down hill for multiple decades now. These days it's pretty much exclusively known for it's M&M's...meth and Mormans. haha

Most of the Mormons are moving to Gilbert and Chandler too. It's crazy, because it used to be Little Salt Lake City out there with the Driggs and LeSeuer families owning everything. Now it's a shell of its former self.