Confirmed with Link: [VAN/CBJ] Canucks acquire F Tyler Motte, Jussi Jokinen for F Thomas Vanek

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Dab

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Apr 17, 2017
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If picks weren't available to Benning, but were available to a lot of other teams for similar or lesser players, the immediate question to follow up with is why? Why were picks not available to Benning but were for other teams?

Scary rabbit hole to go down...
 

dc

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In my opinion, and I think others would agree, it's better to acquire a player who has been developed already and is a known commodity rather than to acquire a 5th round pick. When you get down to those rounds you've got around a 1 in 10 chance at picking a player who's going to play a couple hundred games anyway.
 

racerjoe

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In my opinion, and I think others would agree, it's better to acquire a player who has been developed already and is a known commodity rather than to acquire a 5th round pick. When you get down to those rounds you've got around a 1 in 10 chance at picking a player who's going to play a couple hundred games anyway.

I probably wouldn't agree. Unless that player that was developed was known like a grade A prospect Guadette, or or really good player like Zetterberg.
 

tantalum

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In my opinion when the known quantity has a 0% chance of being a long term nhl player on even a mediocre team you take the 10% chance....

Hell you take the 10% chance even if that known quantity is a 4th line known quantity.

The ONLY exception is if you are simply adding depth for an extended cup run. You know like a legitimate cup run.
 

CanaFan

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Feb 19, 2010
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In my opinion, and I think others would agree, it's better to acquire a player who has been developed already and is a known commodity rather than to acquire a 5th round pick. When you get down to those rounds you've got around a 1 in 10 chance at picking a player who's going to play a couple hundred games anyway.

Definitely don’t agree with that. The value / utility difference between a “known commodity” that is a marginal NHL and a compete bust is very small. The bust is worth zero and the marginal NHLer is worth barely more than zero. The chance of the pick - however slim it may be - becoming a valuable NHLer is orders of magnitude more valuable than a marginal NHLer.
 

krutovsdonut

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In my opinion, and I think others would agree, it's better to acquire a player who has been developed already and is a known commodity rather than to acquire a 5th round pick. When you get down to those rounds you've got around a 1 in 10 chance at picking a player who's going to play a couple hundred games anyway.

that kind of analysis really depends on where the team is. it's also not as simple as you say.

keep in mind you can generally acquire a "replacement player" for no assets as a free agent. a replacement player is generally a cheap competent to borderline bottom six veteran depth player.

typically a 5th rounder is only going to get you a replacement player or a mostly blown prospect. unless you are loading up for the playoffs, or are in a market where you can't sign ufas, you should not use draft picks to acquire replacement players. you need to show upside beyond a standard replacement player to justify giving up a draft pick since otherwise you can sign a replacement player and keep the draft pick .

so for a bad team, what you are actually measuring when deciding whether to keep a 5th rounder or trade is the upside above replacement player level between a 5th round pick and the mostly blown prospect you will acquire. that's a very subtle difference because the upside for either option is very small.

a major difference is that if a 5th round pick busts, nobody says anything, but if you bring on board a blown prospect and give them big team ice team and it (predictably) does not work out, then not only will they will fail very publicly and make your organization look bad, they also may not even deliver reliable replacement level service.

the other big risk is that, as with tdl trades, the draft pick you give up may turn into the unicorn you were chasing and haunt you ever after.

so this kind of gamble really only makes sense for teams with lots of room on their roster and no real expectation of making the playoffs (e.g., no need to bother with replacement players). it also requires a gm with a thick hide. the safer bet for a rebuilding team is to never trade draft picks for anything but sure things, and to cultivate your draft pick garden and wait for your odds to come in.

whether that is the right bet is harder to say. we have seen benning gamble repeatedly with nearly blown picks. he has not been able to beat the odds and has been heavily criticized for the very public failures on such gambles, which impacts his job security.
 

tyhee

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In my opinion, and I think others would agree, it's better to acquire a player who has been developed already and is a known commodity rather than to acquire a 5th round pick. When you get down to those rounds you've got around a 1 in 10 chance at picking a player who's going to play a couple hundred games anyway.

The statement is missing a key piece, that is what the player who has been developed already has developed into.

If I have the opportunity to trade for either Will Butcher or a 5th round pick, I'll take the known commodity.

If I have the opportunity to trade for a different defenceman from the 2013 draft, Anton Cederholm, then it would be the height of stupidity to take that known commodity. Better a pick that may turn into something good on rare occasions than a player who has proven to be nothing.

If you want to take the Tyler Mottes of the world instead of a mid-round pick don't be surprised when people on this forum disagree. The Vancouver Canucks have drafted Kevin Bieksa, Scott Walker, Adrian Aucoin, Gino Odjick, Robert Kron, Dirk Graham, Mike Brown, Ben Hutton, Gustav Forsling and Adam Gaudette in the 5th round of the draft. I'd much rather have a lottery ticket with a chance at one of them than a known commodity when that known commodity is known to be, at best, a marginal NHL player.

The fact that most 5th round picks turn out not to be even marginal at the NHL level means nothing. Marginal players such as Motte aren't going to do much to help a team win. Bieksa, Aucoin, Graham and Kron did, in their day, help their teams win.
 
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timw33

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Vanek fitting in great with the Jackets, 7 points in 10 games.

Producing like what you'd expect for a guy you just traded your 2nd round pick for. Not Tyler ****ing Motte and a trash contract dump that for some reason we happily take off their hands.
 
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F A N

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Vanek fitting in great with the Jackets, 7 points in 10 games.

Producing like what you'd expect for a guy you just traded your 2nd round pick for. Not Tyler ****ing Motte and a trash contract dump that for some reason we happily take off their hands.

He wasn't fitting in well before and looked like a complete bust for Columbus. Glad he turned things around.
 

me2

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In my opinion, and I think others would agree, it's better to acquire a player who has been developed already and is a known commodity rather than to acquire a 5th round pick. When you get down to those rounds you've got around a 1 in 10 chance at picking a player who's going to play a couple hundred games anyway.
Explains why Benning likes to trade picks or waiver fodder. MR Waiver Fodder has played more NHL games than the the average mid round pick will, so it makes a lot of sense to give the team a 3rd rather than claim the player off waivers the next week.
 

Kickpuncher

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Even if Vanek had busted with CBJ, his value at the point of the TDL was a mid-round pick at minimum.

Benning's weak, ineffectual trading ability knows no bounds. This was about as automatic as deals like this get, and he still found a way to screw it up. It's almost impressive.

Vanek's recent success is just rubbing salt in JB's self-inflicted wounds.
 
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Pip

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In my opinion, and I think others would agree, it's better to acquire a player who has been developed already and is a known commodity rather than to acquire a 5th round pick. When you get down to those rounds you've got around a 1 in 10 chance at picking a player who's going to play a couple hundred games anyway.

It’s far better to have a draft pick then a prospect that a team has given up on
 

krutovsdonut

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It’s far better to have a draft pick then a prospect that a team has given up on

do you have any statistical proof of that?

the odds of a late draft pick being more than a replacement player are extremely low. how do you know the odds of a blown draft pick turning it around and becoming better than a replacement player are lower to a statistically significant degree?
 
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Kickpuncher

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do you have any statistical proof of that?

the odds of a late draft pick being more than a replacement player are extremely low. how do you know the odds of a blown draft pick turning it around and becoming better than a replacement player are lower to a statistically significant degree?

Do you have any statistical proof of that?
 

Hit the post

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I'm guessing the thinking is, among the few Benning attributes that are positive are drafting (pretty questionable pro scouting results so far).....I'd rather have him draft vs acquiring that "replacement level player".
 

krutovsdonut

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I'm guessing the thinking is, among the few Benning attributes that are positive are drafting (pretty questionable pro scouting results so far).....I'd rather have him draft vs acquiring that "replacement level player".

that's pretty unscientific though. assume benning somehow has late round magic pixie dust that makes him 50% better than anyone else at drafting players better than replacement. assume also he is also 50% worse at picking reclamation projects than average.

even with those assumptions, we still don't know if that makes a 5th round pick a more valuable option for the canucks than a reclamation project we can get for a 5th rounder. we lack baseline data. we are relying on an "eye test" that is distorted by the fact the reclamation projects are disappointing right in front of us on the active roster in a manner that is emotionally taxing compared to the disappointment from draft picks we may never even sign.

this is not a new question. i have asked it a few times. at some point i may try my inexpert hand at tracking it.
 

pgj98m3

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that's pretty unscientific though. assume benning somehow has late round magic pixie dust that makes him 50% better than anyone else at drafting players better than replacement. assume also he is also 50% worse at picking reclamation projects than average.

even with those assumptions, we still don't know if that makes a 5th round pick a more valuable option for the canucks than a reclamation project we can get for a 5th rounder. we lack baseline data. we are relying on an "eye test" that is distorted by the fact the reclamation projects are disappointing right in front of us on the active roster in a manner that is emotionally taxing compared to the disappointment from draft picks we may never even sign.

this is not a new question. i have asked it a few times. at some point i may try my inexpert hand at tracking it.
Well you could consider the results so far.......
Fighting for 31st place is a pretty good metric for judging a GM.
 

vancityluongo

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that's pretty unscientific though. assume benning somehow has late round magic pixie dust that makes him 50% better than anyone else at drafting players better than replacement. assume also he is also 50% worse at picking reclamation projects than average.

even with those assumptions, we still don't know if that makes a 5th round pick a more valuable option for the canucks than a reclamation project we can get for a 5th rounder. we lack baseline data. we are relying on an "eye test" that is distorted by the fact the reclamation projects are disappointing right in front of us on the active roster in a manner that is emotionally taxing compared to the disappointment from draft picks we may never even sign.

this is not a new question. i have asked it a few times. at some point i may try my inexpert hand at tracking it.

I don't have a complete answer for you, but this might not be a bad place to start: The Canucks and Pick Value

If you want a non-Canucks army view, this journal may have some interesting insights.

https://content.iospress.com/download/journal-of-sports-analytics/jsa0015?id=journal-of-sports-analytics/jsa0015

Here are some more links that touch on the topic:

THE VALUE OF A DRAFT PICK? (older, but solid research)
The value of a draft pick
How pGPS Values Draft Slots at the 2017 Entry Draft
Statistically Speaking: NHL Draft Pick Value - Article - TSN

TL;WR - we don't lack data.
 
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krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
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Well you could consider the results so far.......
Fighting for 31st place is a pretty good metric for judging a GM.

we're not judging a gm. we're discussing a specific strategy any gm could employ. even if benning is a bad gm, not everything he does is necessarily bad. and being in 31st does not mean everything he does is bad.
 

pgj98m3

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we're not judging a gm. we're discussing a specific strategy any gm could employ. even if benning is a bad gm, not everything he does is necessarily bad. and being in 31st does not mean everything he does is bad.
Thanks Capt. Obvious....
 

Ainec

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Jun 20, 2009
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Vanek along with Pat Maroon were easily one of the best tdl players for a playoff push

no surprise he's helped columbus while we are struggling to score goals

Benning gets a F- for this trade but there is no grade if he failed to make a trade and we are 3 points above Arizona or Buffalo
 
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