Value Of Mcdonagh

[Liferleafer]

I mean I would offer up anyone not of the big 3, or gards/mo for McD

Which leaves nothing realistic....a top pair D will cost us a bunch...which i don't want to pay.

 

[Savant]

They don't "have to" do anything. They're 1-5 now, depending on if, when and how they turn it around they can be sellers or buyers or stand pat.

And you can't really miss your chance to rebuild Imo, short of selling assets for "win now" players. Moving current assets for futures can be done anytime assuming you still have those assets. They literally just traded Stepan for futures. The only other major acquisitions they made were Smith and Shattenkirk, who they gave up no assets for at all. They have the same number of trade chips they had this summer.

The only way I can see that they missed a chance to rebuild is if you're talking about literally stripping the team down to barely operable garbage at the cap floor and praying to the draft gods. Otherwise, even a rebuilding team needs players who are currently talented and who the youth can learn from and succeed with. Stripping the team down to that extent would never ever happen with this owner, and thank god, because there is something worse than being a bubble team believe it or not, it's being absolutely terrible and losing the game of chance that could potentially lift you out of it.

I don’t agree.

By signing Shattenkirk and Smith they’d indicated that they are still trying to win. There is no need to sink 11 million on dmen, if you aren’t trying to contend. This is especially true after you deal your top Center for futures. What makes more sense is to reinvest those futures. The window in only theoretically open two more years, and they bought that time by signing Shattenkirk and Smith.

The Rangers have talented young forwards. They don’t have the gamebreakers because they haven’t drafted high enough to get one. This isn’t praying to the draft gods, it’s common sense. Being a bubble team requires prayer to the draft gods, picking high requires less luck. The same owner is stripping it down with the Knicks. You can sell a fan base on a rebuild if you are open with them about it.

 

[haveandare]

I don’t agree.

By signing Shattenkirk and Smith they’d indicated that they are still trying to win. There is no need to sink 11 million on dmen, if you aren’t trying to contend. This is especially true after you deal your top Center for futures. What makes more sense is to reinvest those futures. The window in only theoretically open two more years, and they bought that time by signing Shattenkirk and Smith.

The Rangers have talented young forwards. They don’t have the gamebreakers because they haven’t drafted high enough to get one. This isn’t praying to the draft gods, it’s common sense. Being a bubble team requires prayer to the draft gods, picking high requires less luck. The same owner is stripping it down with the Knicks. You can sell a fan base on a rebuild if you are open with them about it.

Shattenkirk came to them with a deal that was under market value and tailored to their philosophy of no more long contracts. If the idea is to amass valuable assets, taking that deal is a no brainer. Even if it's all about getting max value to trade for futures, they can move him later in this contract, something they got for nothing but money, and get even more futures. Smith I suppose they could have not signed and instead got a bargain bin defender, but they had a relatively cheap guy in the big scheme of things who was thriving with their best d prospect at the highest level. There is no "need" for anything if you think literally enough, but if the idea is to field a decent team or even to amass as many future assets as possible, signing Shattenkirk to that deal at least was wise.

The window changes constantly. If we're being brutally honest the window is probably already closed. If we want to be slightly optimistic, it's arguably still open this year. If we want to be optimistic overall it can stretch till who knows when assuming they can get Shestyorkin over here before Hank is totally done.

How high is high enough to get game breakers? Many guys who went on to be game breaking forwards weren't taken top 5. And a number of top 5 picks even turn out to be far less than game breakers. Yes, banking on getting a "game breaking" forward with any specific draft pick, meaning someone beyond Zucc and Kreider since you say NYR don't have any now, is absolutely on the level of praying to the draft gods. You need to finish crappy, you need the lottery to help you, and you need to get that pick in a year when the consensus top picks contain multiple players on this level that you can snag one of and develop without causing setbacks. That is not even close to likely enough to be the foundation of a team building strategy imo. Edmonton, Pitt, Chicago, etc didn't chose to suck and have it work - they just sucked and were lucky. Choosing to dismantle a good team to bet on those same odds is insane.

 

[Viqsi]

Shattenkirk came to them with a deal that was under market value and tailored to their philosophy of no more long contracts. If the idea is to amass valuable assets, taking that deal is a no brainer. Even if it's all about getting max value to trade for futures, they can move him later in this contract, something they got for nothing but money, and get even more futures. Smith I suppose they could have not signed and instead got a bargain bin defender, but they had a relatively cheap guy in the big scheme of things who was thriving with their best d prospect at the highest level. There is no "need" for anything if you think literally enough, but if the idea is to field a decent team or even to amass as many future assets as possible, signing Shattenkirk to that deal at least was wise.

The window changes constantly. If we're being brutally honest the window is probably already closed. If we want to be slightly optimistic, it's arguably still open this year. If we want to be optimistic overall it can stretch till who knows when assuming they can get Shestyorkin over here before Hank is totally done.

How high is high enough to get game breakers? Many guys who went on to be game breaking forwards weren't taken top 5. And a number of top 5 picks even turn out to be far less than game breakers. Yes, banking on getting a "game breaking" forward with any specific draft pick, meaning someone beyond Zucc and Kreider since you say NYR don't have any now, is absolutely on the level of praying to the draft gods. You need to finish crappy, you need the lottery to help you, and you need to get that pick in a year when the consensus top picks contain multiple players on this level that you can snag one of and develop without causing setbacks. That is not even close to likely enough to be the foundation of a team building strategy imo. Edmonton, Pitt, Chicago, etc didn't chose to suck and have it work - they just sucked and were lucky. Choosing to dismantle a good team to bet on those same odds is insane.

Boy, does this line of argument bring back memories. It seems the impulse to feel like one's controlling one's own destiny with the random number generator is universal. As though top picks are "privileges" that you "earn" and that one can do more to "earn" them.

Good luck and G-dspeed to you.

 

[haveandare]

Boy, does this line of argument bring back memories. It seems the impulse to feel like one's controlling one's own destiny with the random number generator is universal. As though top picks are "privileges" that you "earn" and that one can do more to "earn" them.

Good luck and G-dspeed to you.

I have no idea what point you’re trying to make here. Can you explain further in less opaque and general terms?

 

[bernmeister]

His value is very high. That pedigree of #1 D does not come cheap. Most teams would not be willing to give up, what it would cost to acquire him.

This^.
But if overpayment is substantial enough, we should take it.

Great, we're gonna see tons of Rangers trade proposals now.

McD won't be actively shopped or moved for less than a king's ransom, so probably won't be. He's more valuable to us as both a leader/captain and our top defenseman moving forward, along with Skjei and obviously Shattenkirk being kept. IF we do go into a rebuild, it'll depend on what moves we CAN make this year or over next Summer, where we draft (if the player is NHL ready or very close, for example), progress from Chytil and/or Andersson + Pionk, Graves, or Bereglazov and of course when our stud goalie prospect is coming over and how he adjusts to the NHL.

So the "window" with Hank, to me, is definitely closed. But our window as a team isn't. Just like I said at the beginning of the season, we're either a top 5 in the East or a fringe/bubble team. Being 1-5 already in this tough division/conference means we're very likely already the latter and we're a key injury or two away from being a bottom 10/lottery team. Seriously. That's just logical analysis. So as with that, the same goes for the window. A few key moves, some good picks progressing nicely and our goalie coming over and being good out of the box... we'd be right back in it next year or the year after and still have a prime McDonagh, Skjei and Shattenkirk, with the latter used in the proper role of PP specialist and offense driver.

Our GM is good. I believe in his ability to right the ship rather quickly, but it really does depend on what's out there. If it's at all possible he will do it. If it's not, I don't see him making dumb moves to try to win while sacrificing our future further. They proved that this Summer, even with the D signings, yes. Middle of the road for us is already impressive vs. just WIN WIN WIN. I trust him to be smart and I'm cool with many different paths. I'm also fine with losing this year since I kind of half expected it anyway. More fun to see how new guys progress here and elsewhere.

Anyone which = everyone is theoretically available IF there is enough profit to moving them.

Given the reality of a cap world in NHL, we should keep Skeji, and consider McD particularly expendable accordingly.

 

[Shootertooter]

I think the Rangers should consider moving McD if the offer is really good.
They would need a youngish top 6 centre and a quality young defender

 

[Viqsi]

I have no idea what point you’re trying to make here. Can you explain further in less opaque and general terms?

Rephrased version: I salute your attempting to explain why tanking is stupid. I've been there before. Good luck.

 

[Ori]

Woah, he is our cpt. lol - we can`t just move everyone out of New York due to a horrific season start.

 

[Savant]

Given the reality of a cap world in NHL, we should keep Skeji, and consider McD particularly expendable accordingly.

Nail on the head. Persevering cap space is the key. If you aren’t contending there is no reason to tie up 11 million in dmen.

If the window has closed, there is no reason to give McDonagh 8x8. It’s irrelevant if he is the captain or he is good or blah blah blah. You preserve the cap space. You accumulate assets and you make smart trades. The Rangers strength is their depth of strength young forwards. They make not have a true gamebreakers, but they are all under 25 years old and under control except Nash, (who will be gone by the trade deadline) and Zuccarello, who is just as integral to leadership, if not moreso than McDonagh. That doesn’t make him untouchable either although it would cost a ransom.

If the Rangers has not signed Smith and Shattenkirk, nothing would have changed with their forward group. Their defense wouldn’t be great but Pionk and Graves are almost, if not, NHL ready. AV would still be giving minutes to Holden and Kampfer, and the team would be where it is now record wise. The difference is that they would have cap space and flexibility. You accumulate more assets from dealing Nash and McDonagh (can’t wait until he gets extended and the Rangers have to buy him out 3 years later because they haven’t learned yet). That is how you do a retool. You do not do a retool by trading your top center and not replacing him, while capping yourself out in the process. This is what the Rangers did

 

[zeke]

Liljegren + Kapanen + 1st

add in bozak for cap purposes, who you can flip for picks at the deadline.

 

[Machinehead]

 

[bernmeister]

Nail on the head. Persevering cap space is the key. If you aren’t contending there is no reason to tie up 11 million in dmen.

If the window has closed, there is no reason to give McDonagh 8x8. It’s irrelevant if he is the captain or he is good or blah blah blah. You preserve the cap space. You accumulate assets and you make smart trades. The Rangers strength is their depth of strength young forwards. They make not have a true gamebreakers, but they are all under 25 years old and under control except Nash, (who will be gone by the trade deadline) and Zuccarello, who is just as integral to leadership, if not moreso than McDonagh. That doesn’t make him untouchable either although it would cost a ransom.

If the Rangers has not signed Smith and Shattenkirk, nothing would have changed with their forward group. Their defense wouldn’t be great but Pionk and Graves are almost, if not, NHL ready. AV would still be giving minutes to Holden and Kampfer, and the team would be where it is now record wise. The difference is that they would have cap space and flexibility. You accumulate more assets from dealing Nash and McDonagh (can’t wait until he gets extended and the Rangers have to buy him out 3 years later because they haven’t learned yet). That is how you do a retool. You do not do a retool by trading your top center and not replacing him, while capping yourself out in the process. This is what the Rangers did

Well said. And, nothing is a given, McD/Zuc either or both may/may not want to return, or take mo $ elsewhere. But there is a chance of a Chapman to Yanks parallel where we get assets and eventually player return

 

[Liferleafer]

Liljegren + Kapanen + 1st

add in bozak for cap purposes, who you can flip for picks at the deadline.

I think i would pass on this.

 

[zeke]

I think i would pass on this.

eh, you get a chance to add a dman like this to this leafs team, without giving up a current core piece, you gotta do it imo, even if the rangers end up "winning" the trade on longterm value.

 

[Liferleafer]

eh, you get a chance to add a dman like this to this leafs team, without giving up a current core piece, you gotta do it imo, even if the rangers end up "winning" the trade on longterm value.

I would prefer to stay the course, JVR is all but gone, so Kap will be a need....and i am very high on Liljgren. I just don't see Toronto swinging for the fences going for a big name D.

 

[zeke]

well I would hope they would, if one should come available - especially if it doesn't cost them one of their current core pieces.

 

[Liferleafer]

well I would hope they would, if one should come available - especially if it doesn't cost them one of their current core pieces.

So, we don't trade a core asset....at the end of the 2018-19 season.....how are we re-signing Matthews/Marner/Nylander AND McD? It's guys like Kap and Liljgren that will be keeping this team competitive for more than 1 and a half years due to ELC contracts.

 

[TheTakedown]

McDonagh, age 28, is signed thru the end of the 2019 season with a Modified NTC with a cap hit of $4.7M.

What would to pay for him on your team? Note that this team would probably be closer to contending than rebuilding.

 

[Savant]

Their best hope would be something similar to the Larsson/Hall deal.

They’ve painted themselves into a corner and really can’t move him for futures. That being said it’s rrally hard to see him being moved.

 

[zeke]

So, we don't trade a core asset....at the end of the 2018-19 season.....how are we re-signing Matthews/Marner/Nylander AND McD? It's guys like Kap and Liljgren that will be keeping this team competitive for more than 1 and a half years due to ELC contracts.

Hyman 2.3 - Matthews 12.0 - Marner 8.0
Leivo 1.5 - Nylander 8.0 - Brown 2.1
Grundstrom 0.9 - Kadri 4.5 - Johnsson 1.0
Martin 2.5 - Gauthier 1.0 - Soshnikov 1.5
(XXXX 1.0)

McDonagh 8.0 - Rielly 5.0
Gardiner 6.5 - Zaitsev 4.5
Borgman 2.0 - Dermott 0.9
(XXXX 1.0)

Andersen 5.0
(XXXX 1.0)


Total ~$80m

something like that.

 

[Liferleafer]

Hyman 2.3 - Matthews 12.0 - Marner 8.0
Leivo 1.5 - Nylander 8.0 - Brown 2.1
Grundstrom 0.9 - Kadri 4.5 - Johnsson 1.0
Martin 2.5 - Gauthier 1.0 - Soshnikov 1.5
(XXXX 1.0)

McDonagh 8.0 - Rielly 5.0
Gardiner 6.5 - Zaitsev 4.5
Borgman 2.0 - Dermott 0.9
(XXXX 1.0)

Andersen 5.0
(XXXX 1.0)


Total ~$80m

something like that.

Congrats...our forwards look horrible...and Marleau's contract is still here when McD's is up....

 

[The Winter Soldier]

A mid to high first rd and 2nd rd pick and a quality prospect is what I would take bare minimum for a quality D man in McDonagh.

 

[Canovin]

I think i would pass on this.

The Leafs still have all their picks. Use them to draft more prospects. Adding McDonagh will have an immediate impact on the Leafs

 

[zeke]

Congrats...our forwards look horrible...and Marleau's contract is still here when McD's is up....

Those forwards are still great, actually.

But if you want to replace Goat with some other vet 4th line C, go ahead.