Raptors Discussion: V64 Round 3! First conf. finals in franchise history!

[theaub]

The Cavaliers have the best player on the court, and second best in the league (imo).

The Raptors, when healthy and right, have the second, third and fourth best players in the series. The Cavaliers have two of the top ten most overrated players in the league (also the fifth and sixth best players in the series) on their squad.

Concur with this.

LeBron is going to LeBron, so it comes down to the guy who's the second best player on the floor. If we get first 9 game of the playoffs Lowry, its not going past Victoria Day. If we get the last 5 games, it comes back here for Game 6.

Logically we'll likely get something in the middle, and thus Cavs in 5.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The Cavaliers have the best player on the court, and second best in the league (imo).

The Raptors, when healthy and right, have the second, third and fourth best players in the series. The Cavaliers have two of the top ten most overrated players in the league (also the fifth and sixth best players in the series) on their squad.

Um yeah, I don't know about that.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Um yeah, I don't know about that.

Do tell.

 

[glue]

There's always "a chance", it's just that realistically, that chance is very small.

Ask yourself, what are the chances that the Raps play the way they did game 7 every game against the Cavs? When you answer that, you'll be well on your way to figuring out what the Raps chances are of actually winning this series.

The big issue with the Raps all playoffs long has not been their defence or their bench, its been Lowry and DD. Those 2 guys in the last 3 games of the series with the Heat, stepped up, and in the last game pretty much seemed like regular season Lowry and DD. Regular season Lowry and DD went 2 and 1 against the Cavs...again I'm not saying Cavs aren't playing great right now, but talkin like the series is already over is not giving the raps enough credit. So call me an optimist, but I disagree that the chances are as small as you are suggesting. Also, Raps don't need to play all their games against the Cavs they way they did game 7, then just need to play that way 4 of their games

 

[Gary Nylund]

Do tell.

I assume you're saying that JV and DD are both better than KL and Kyrie. I just think that's a stretch. JMHO.

 

[AvroArrow]

T-Mac #2? No way. He became the player that could be considered that but he wasn't when he was here.

Carter at #1 sure but unanimous is a stretch. If Lowry/Derozan can continue down the path they are on for another couple seasons the debate will become fierce.

Lowry/Derozan have a far superior team/coach to work with. Carter was considered a top 5 player while he was playing here. Player vs Player the talent level is pretty far off. He was the single greatest raptor. Swap Derozan for a prime Vince Carter and we have a legitimate shot at winning the title. Not saying Demar isn't good but VC was an absolute beast here. The team we have now has obviously accomplished more and gotten further than VC has but that doesn't mean he wasn't the best raptor. E.G if the leafs won the championship this year it wouldn't mean player X is now considered a better leaf than Sundin because he went further than Sundin ever has. Same sort of idea.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I assume you're saying that JV and DD are both better than KL and Kyrie. I just think that's a stretch. JMHO.

I most certainly am.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

The Cavaliers have the best player on the court, and second best in the league (imo).

The Raptors, when healthy and right, have the second, third and fourth best players in the series. The Cavaliers have two of the top ten most overrated players in the league (also the fifth and sixth best players in the series) on their squad.

Couldn't you make the case for DeRozan being overrated since he's one of the worst playoff shooters of all time?

Irving hasn't played a lot of playoff games but in the ones he's played he's been extremely efficient. His eFG% is .537 in the playoff compare that to Lowry and DeRozan it's not even close.

Is it true the Cavs are 12-0 in the playoffs all time when Irvin-James-Love all start?

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Couldn't you make the case for DeRozan being overrated since he's one of the worst playoff shooters of all time?

Irving hasn't played a lot of playoff games but in the ones he's played he's been extremely efficient. His eFG% is .537 in the playoff compare that to Lowry and DeRozan it's not even close.

Is it true the Cavs are 12-0 in the playoffs all time when Irvin-James-Love all start?

Feline-like passive aggressiveness aside, I'm certain you could make a case for anything.

I prefer to use relevant sample sizes, like a full season, to concur that players with superior PER, ORtg, and DRtg are indeed superior. As far as overrating players, I like to use the American media as a gauge vs. the actual production of a player.

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

Lowry/Derozan have a far superior team/coach to work with. Carter was considered a top 5 player while he was playing here. Player vs Player the talent level is pretty far off. He was the single greatest raptor. Swap Derozan for a prime Vince Carter and we have a legitimate shot at winning the title. Not saying Demar isn't good but VC was an absolute beast here. The team we have now has obviously accomplished more and gotten further than VC has but that doesn't mean he wasn't the best raptor. E.G if the leafs won the championship this year it wouldn't mean player X is now considered a better leaf than Sundin because he went further than Sundin ever has. Same sort of idea.

Lowry has a pretty good case for top 10 player in the league this year. Finishes 10th in MVP voting, 8th in Win Shares, 7th in RPM. I think Curry, Kawhi, Lebron, Westbrook, Durant, Paul should be considered consensus above him. After that includes players like Harden and Lillard who put up offensive numbers but do not have the all around game of Lowry, and some other two way players like Butler and George.

In 01 Vince was voted behind Iverson, Shaq, Duncan, Webber, KG, Tmac, Karl Malone, Kidd, Kobe and tied with Ray Allen. Dirk didn't get any MVP votes but was great too. Now it's harder to get MVP votes when he didn't have as good a record as most of those players so I think he had a case against everyone but Shaq, Duncan and KG, and Vince was a solid 6th in WS. But overall I wouldn't call the gap between VC and Lowry's seasons to be mammoth. The main advantage VC and Bosh have over Lowry is they played more years for Toronto

 

[Brewster]

Cleveland is a tough nut to crack. Lowry and DeRozan are gonna have to be locked in from the game 1 tip to make this close; no more of this 35% from the field nonsense. 2Pat and Ross need to have their three point shooting dialed in to counteract Smith and Love. Carroll has to continue to play excellent 3&D basketball. We need Biyombo to outrebound Thompson (no small feat), and if JV comes back, he's gotta step right back to where he left off against Miami.

 

[Neil Hamburger]

If Wade was getting those ridiculous phantom calls every game, I can't imagine what it'll be like with Lebron.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Feline-like passive aggressiveness aside, I'm certain you could make a case for anything.

I prefer to use relevant sample sizes, like a full season, to concur that players with superior PER, ORtg, and DRtg are indeed superior. As far as overrating players, I like to use the American media as a gauge vs. the actual production of a player.

I understand what you're saying but Irving hasn't had that same sample size. Lowry is 6-7 years older and has had more opportunities. This is Irving's 2nd playoff run in his career. There are numerous stats you can look at but I am sure more executives when asked to choose who they would rather have at this moment more would take Irving. Looking at the big picture the Cavs still are the #1 seed in the east just as they were a 2 seed last year and ahead of the Raptors both of the past 2 seasons.

I could see the Raptors taking this to 6 but that's under the caveat of them winning one of the first two games in Cleveland.

 

[Neil Hamburger]

Raps have 1/33 odds of winning the championship according to odds makers.

Shows just how pathetic the lack of parity is in the NBA: you can make the conference finals, and still be less likely to win the championship than if you were to put all 30 teams names in a hat and draw randomly.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I most certainly am.

So far in these playoffs, DD has been just bad. Maybe he'll magically become better overnight but I doubt it.

 

[Eyedea]

I understand what you're saying but Irving hasn't had that same sample size. Lowry is 6-7 years older and has had more opportunities. This is Irving's 2nd playoff run in his career. There are numerous stats you can look at but I am sure more executives when asked to choose who they would rather have at this moment more would take Irving. Looking at the big picture the Cavs still are the #1 seed in the east just as they were a 2 seed last year and ahead of the Raptors both of the past 2 seasons.

I could see the Raptors taking this to 6 but that's under the caveat of them winning one of the first two games in Cleveland.

That would primarily be based on age and the idea that Irving hasn't reached his prime yet. Lowry is in his prime and showed throughout the season that he is a more effective and efficient player while also having a lower usage rate. Irving also has the benefit of not being a primary option or a defence's main focus.

That being said, I feel the Raps problems will be less about LeBron's scoring and more about his supporting cast. Irving, Love, Smith, even their bench options in Frye, Shump, Jefferson, and Dellavedova are hitting 3s at a very high rate. The Raps being incredibly weak on perimeter defence will have trouble countering all of those options.

 

[theaub]

I honestly can't remember the last time a team in the conference final got this little respect.

Comparatively, the Hawks were +190 last year.

 

[Eyedea]

I also do think Sid has a point about the Raps historically playing to the level of their competition. That game 7 gear can be brought against the Cavs. They very likely won't win, but it's also less heartbreaking if they lose and being the underdog can let a player ease up and not have the same level of stress as they would if they were the favourites.

 

[McMatthews]

Who do you guys want with the 9th pick?

I like Skal Labissiere, Timothe Luwawu and Deyonta Davis.

It would be ideal to trade up from 9th to grab either Jamal Murray or Jaylen Brown.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That would primarily be based on age and the idea that Irving hasn't reached his prime yet. Lowry is in his prime and showed throughout the season that he is a more effective and efficient player while also having a lower usage rate. Irving also has the benefit of not being a primary option or a defence's main focus.

That being said, I feel the Raps problems will be less about LeBron's scoring and more about his supporting cast. Irving, Love, Smith, even their bench options in Frye, Shump, Jefferson, and Dellavedova are hitting 3s at a very high rate. The Raps being incredibly weak on perimeter defence will have trouble countering all of those options.

I would take Lowry over Irving right now but I can understand why some people might take Irving. What I can't understand is why anyone would think that DD is better than Irving and Love.

I honestly can't remember the last time a team in the conference final got this little respect.

Comparatively, the Hawks were +190 last year.

If the odds were set right after the season ended, they'd be a lot closer. Cleveland has looked really good so far though while the Raptors haven't and most of all, JV being injured is a massive blow to the Raptors. I'd love for the Raptors to win but I just can't see how they could possibly do it unless Lebron gets injured or something.

 

[mcleex]

Cleveland is a tough nut to crack. Lowry and DeRozan are gonna have to be locked in from the game 1 tip to make this close; no more of this 35% from the field nonsense. 2Pat and Ross need to have their three point shooting dialed in to counteract Smith and Love. Carroll has to continue to play excellent 3&D basketball. We need Biyombo to outrebound Thompson (no small feat), and if JV comes back, he's gotta step right back to where he left off against Miami.

This. Also Joseph has to play well off the bench. I think our bench is a huge key to beating Cleveland

So much has to go right for us to win this series, and even then itll be close

 

[nammerus]

I would take Lowry over Irving right now but I can understand why some people might take Irving. What I can't understand is why anyone would think that DD is better than Irving and Love.

Well, you'd have to be a massive homer or be someone that has never watched a game outside of the raps to make that that asinine a comment.

 

[AvroArrow]

If Wade was getting those ridiculous phantom calls every game, I can't imagine what it'll be like with Lebron.

Haven't you ever seen him play ? He's the king of phantom calls. Had it not been for the ridiculous amount of phantom calls he gets, the amount of travels per game he gets away with along with his notorious fore arm shiver he delivers on every drive his numbers would be significantly lower.

Get ready to see flopping and whipping heads back unnecessarily on every possession. The league should seriously just start handing out tech's for embellishment if they wanna stop all that garbage these "stars" do.

 

[Radiohead]

NBA draft lottery tomorrow night. From Reddit:

For reference our lottery odds:
2 - 0.17%
3 - 0.43%
8 - 5.39%
9 - 79.21%
10 - 14.29%
11 - 0.50%
12 - 0.0043%

I'm still not sure how we can pick 8th yet.

EDIT: I forgot that we have to take into account the 7th and 9th best lottery odds.

 

[theaub]

Well, you'd have to be a massive homer or be someone that has never watched a game outside of the raps to make that that asinine a comment.

Kevin Love is easily the most overrated player in the league.

I'd take Kyrie over JV/DD but its not far off. Lowry will torch him this series.

Stat edit to the above: in the three games against the Cavs (e: Kyrie played last two only), Kyle had at least a .700 TS% and 153 ORTG in every game. That is ridiculous.