Line Combos: TOR needs to **** or get off the pot in regards to our defense

[Man Bear Pig]

Or, ya know, patience.

Just because things aren't happening as fast as fans want, doesn't mean they're doing it wrong.

We have been patient. The problem is there's a huge hole on the right side on the blue line with nobody in the system outside of Liljegren who has a chance at being a top 2. I'm at the point where I'd consider going all in on Doughty and look at Tanev as well. We have the pieces to get them.

 

[TOGuy14]

Because of the way our ELCs line up we have a ton of cap space for a single season next year (depending on how much it actually goes up).

I would really like the Leafs to offer a huge one year deal to John Carlson for 10-11M

 

[Community]

Because of the way our ELCs line up we have a ton of cap space for a single season next year (depending on how much it actually goes up).

I would really like the Leafs to offer a huge one year deal to John Carlson for 10-11M

Carlson just had a big year. He'll want to sign a long term contract and will be offered an overpayment that makes more sense than a 1 year 10+ deal imo.

 

[TOGuy14]

Carlson just had a big year. He'll want to sign a long term contract and will be offered an overpayment that makes more sense than a 1 year 10+ deal imo.

Agree it is unlikely but if he wants to roll the dice slightly he could still get a big long term contract next off season.

I believe we will have $25M in cap space with Willy being the only significant or expensive signing to make

We could also look at a large one year deal for Mike Green or Calvin De Haan

 

[BlueBaron]

RATIONALE FOR MOVING JAKE GARDINER TO LEFT WING:

1) He's a top 20 offensive d-man - but he's also a below average defender.

• Given his age, experience & consistency over time, we shouldn't expect his defense to improve.
• His greatest strengths = skating, speed, offensive rushes, vision, passing & creativity.
• His greatest weaknesses = positioning, coverage, defensive awareness & decision making.
• Every season, his strong offensive contributions end up negated by numerous defensive lapses.
• The logical solution is to let him play to his strengths & provide a buffer for his weaknesses.

2) Adjusting to LW is far less difficult than adjusting to defense or center.

• Wingers have the most sheltered & least structured position in hockey.
• He'll have a second line of defense to cover any mistakes he makes during the learning curve.
• He already has a play-making wingers skill set, so almost all of the adjustment will be positional.

3) Gardiner at LW matches team needs for next season.

• If Komy & JVR are let go, we'll be weak at LW (Marleau, Hyman, Johnsson, Martin, Grundstrom).
• None of our remaining LW's are playmakers or pass-first players (they're grinders & shooters).
• Our remaining centers (Matthews, Kadri, Nylander) are scorers & could all benefit from a passer.
• Our LD should be OK with Rielly, Dermott, Borgman & Rosen (possibly better if we sign DeHaan).

4) Gardiner's new role, ice-time & potential performance.

• He could excel on a match-up line with Kadri. (a weak d-man with speed is still a good defensive FW).
• He could end up as our best 2-way LW (and possibly the best play-maker for Kadri on LW).
• Potential line = Gards - Kadri - Brown/Kappy (which leaves Marleau to support Nylander on defense).
• His ice-time would take a hit, but he could be used in all situations (PK forward & PP2 quarterback).
• Even with less ice, I don't see his production dropping (it's possible he jumps to 70+ points from 52).

I honestly believe Gardiner has the upside of a point/game winger that helps shut down top lines. I also think he could reach that potential within a year at LW.

If that did happen - he'd be so much more valuable than he is on defense. Dermott might even be an upgrade on the 2nd pair & Hainsey is a natural LD if needed. This is the last year of his contract & I don't see him staying long-term in his current role. If there was a time to test it out, its now.

The other option would be to trade him this summer - but if no one's offering a 1st + a young player/prospect (I doubt it) - I'd rather try him at LW.

2018-19 SEASON
Johnsson - Matthews - Marner
Marleau - Nylander - Kappy
Gardiner - Kadri - Hyman
Grundy - Aaltonen - Brown
Martin - Gauthier - Leivo
Timashov - Brooks - J.Bracco

Rielly - Hainsey
Dermott - Zaitsev
Borgman - Carrick
Rosen - Holl
Nielsen - Liljegren

*Assuming we make no trades/signings (hope we do)​

Uh...switching our 2nd best D to LW is solving our biggest position of need problem? No. Just the opposite, it is creating a bigger hole. We have no shortage of guys who could slot in as top 9 LWs and none to slot in as 2nd pairing D unless you're ready to give Dermott that job. Are we going to shift Auston to RHD next?

Gardiner is a very polarizing player around here. He is what he is, a top end offensive guy who makes bonehead plays in his own end. You either find him a partner that balances this out or you move on and trade him if you think Dermott is ready to fill the void.

I for one favour moving him this summer and using the assets to address the RHD problem.

I'm going to say we have long term:

Rielly #1 LHD
Dermott #2 LHD
Zaitsev #3 RHD (ideally higher due to cap hit but we can only count on 3rd pairing quality currently)

Then we have 2 pending UFA's

Gardiner #2 LHD
Hainsey- Whatever role is needed, I'd extend him again if reasonable and short term again

Then we have the rest:

Carrick- I've given up on
Polak- Time to move on but could be useful
Marlies guys- a bunch of question marks, hopes, dreams, maybes and probably nots+ Timmy who may take awhile.

If management feels the need for a quick fix they may grab a guy like Tanev to slot in the top pair and push everyone down but I am of the mind we should trade Gardiner and use those assets in a bigger play for a top pairing RHD.

Until that spot is solved, however it is solved, we will always have concerns and people playing in roles above their skill. 1 guy could change everything and make this defense look much better.

I almost don't care who he is, how old he is or how much he costs at this point because until then our only answer is to outscore our problems, which doesn't always work. I want Doughty, OEL, gods even Weber is looking like an option.

Or we save our assets and draft D until we have the unit we need, but that could take another 5 years or more.

 

[drewjenks]

He's a 28 year old Dman, who has played D his entire NHL career and pre-NHL career.

You don't just snap your finger and turn someone like that into a winger.

If Gardiner is struggling as a Dman, then do things that help him as a Dman - get him better partners, manage his ice time, etc.

Your comment makes me think you're a reluctant settler.
Like you've accepted the life you have & have given up hope.
And now even your opinion on things like Jake Gardiner reflect this.

Please correct if I'm wrong - but is this what you were trying to say?

"This is the way it is.
Because it's always been this way.
I can't explain why it is this way.
I'm not sure if this is the best way.
But I know I shouldn't question it.
Because this is the way thing are.
So there must be a good reason.
And I need to finish all this work.
Or my boss will be very angry.
That it's not sitting on his desk.
When he's back from vacation"
- Tak7

 

[Joey Hoser]

Your comment makes me think you're a reluctant settler.
Like you've accepted the life you have & have given up hope.
And now even your opinion on things like Jake Gardiner reflect this.

Please correct if I'm wrong - but is this what you were trying to say?

"This is the way it is.
Because it's always been this way.
I can't explain why it is this way.
I'm not sure if this is the best way.
But I know I shouldn't question it.
Because this is the way thing are.
So there must be a good reason.
And I need to finish all this work.
Or my boss will be very angry.
That it's not sitting on his desk.
When he's back from vacation"
- Tak7

I want to make Matthews a goalie!

 

[Tak7]

Your comment makes me think you're a reluctant settler.
Like you've accepted the life you have & have given up hope.
And now even your opinion on things like Jake Gardiner reflect this.

Please correct if I'm wrong - but is this what you were trying to say?

"This is the way it is.
Because it's always been this way.
I can't explain why it is this way.
I'm not sure if this is the best way.
But I know I shouldn't question it.
Because this is the way thing are.
So there must be a good reason.
And I need to finish all this work.
Or my boss will be very angry.
That it's not sitting on his desk.
When he's back from vacation"
- Tak7

You don't tun a 28 year old Dman into a winger, to fix you defensive deficienies.

Step outside and take a deep breathe.

Then come back and let's have an adult conversation.

 

[drewjenks]

Uh...switching our 2nd best D to LW is solving our biggest position of need problem? No. Just the opposite, it is creating a bigger hole. We have no shortage of guys who could slot in as top 9 LWs and none to slot in as 2nd pairing D unless you're ready to give Dermott that job. Are we going to shift Auston to RHD next?

Gardiner is a very polarizing player around here. He is what he is, a top end offensive guy who makes bonehead plays in his own end. You either find him a partner that balances this out or you move on and trade him if you think Dermott is ready to fill the void.

I for one favour moving him this summer and using the assets to address the RHD problem.

I'm going to say we have long term:

Rielly #1 LHD
Dermott #2 LHD
Zaitsev #3 RHD (ideally higher due to cap hit but we can only count on 3rd pairing quality currently)

Then we have 2 pending UFA's

Gardiner #2 LHD
Hainsey- Whatever role is needed, I'd extend him again if reasonable and short term again

Then we have the rest:

Carrick- I've given up on
Polak- Time to move on but could be useful
Marlies guys- a bunch of question marks, hopes, dreams, maybes and probably nots+ Timmy who may take awhile.

If management feels the need for a quick fix they may grab a guy like Tanev to slot in the top pair and push everyone down but I am of the mind we should trade Gardiner and use those assets in a bigger play for a top pairing RHD.

Until that spot is solved, however it is solved, we will always have concerns and people playing in roles above their skill. 1 guy could change everything and make this defense look much better.

I almost don't care who he is, how old he is or how much he costs at this point because until then our only answer is to outscore our problems, which doesn't always work. I want Doughty, OEL, gods even Weber is looking like an option.

Or we save our assets and draft D until we have the unit we need, but that could take another 5 years or more.

The problem is....he's not our second best D....

He's actually one of our worst defenders....who happens to get a lot of points.

He's more than likely our best left winger though.

And if he did end up at left wing....three things would definitely happen.

1) Our defense would be better at defending (because he's gone).
2) Our forwards would be better at defending (because he's arrived).

 

[BlueBaron]

The problem is....he's not our second best D....

He's actually one of our worst defenders....who happens to get a lot of points.

He's more than likely our best left winger though.

He is our 2nd most talented D-man. Other than Rielly and Hainsey I don't think a case can be made anyone else is better defensively. Maybe Dermott.

I doubt he instantly becomes better than Marleau but maybe...he sure isn't stealing Hyman's job, so basically he'd be our #3 LW.

 

[drewjenks]

You don't tun a 28 year old Dman into a winger, to fix you defensive deficienies.

Step outside and take a deep breathe.

Then come back and let's have an adult conversation.

It has nothing to do with fixing the defense....it has to do using someones skills properly. Trading him would improve defense & that's a much simpler answer.

Jake Gardiner is a high end winger being asked to do something he's bad at.

Answer this: Would Gardiner be in the NHL if he got 10-15 points a year?

And if you think it's hard for an offensive defenseman to learn LW you've never played hockey...

 

[barilko05]

There's nothing IDEAL about playing a career defenseman as a winger.

This is almost as ridiculous as the TRADE GARDINER hot takes today

Red Kelly would beg to differ (although he became a centre...even MORE difficult transition).

 

[Tak7]

Red Kelly would beg to differ (although he became a centre...even MORE difficult transition).

...58 years ago

 

[Tak7]

It has nothing to do with fixing the defense....it has to do using someones skills properly. Trading him would improve defense & that's a much simpler answer.

Jake Gardiner is a high end winger being asked to do something he's bad at.

Answer this: Would Gardiner be in the NHL if he got 10-15 points a year?

And if you think it's hard for an offensive defenseman to learn LW you've never played hockey...

Answer this: Would Sidney Crosby be in the NHL if he had 1 leg?

That's just about as hypothetical and irrelevant as your question.

The Leafs currently have 2 holes on the blueline.

Move Gardiner, and now you have 3 holes.

Go ahead and explain how 3 holes, instead of 2, is improving the defense?

 

[seventieslord]

It's a hot take to make a thread and complain about it the day after a game 7 loss when the personnel has been in place principally since September.

There's a curse word in the title of the thread for god sakes.

... and "shit or get off the pot" isn't even really being used correctly.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Our lack of D has been noted by pretty much everyone in hockey since the start of the "new era" last season.

Its not a hot take whatsoever.

That's entirely valid. However, it should also be noted that despite our lack of depth on the blueline, we could have easily won this series if Andersen showed up every game. I lost count of the number of routine saves he didn't make throughout the series.

 

[sxvnert]

Answer this: Would Sidney Crosby be in the NHL if he had 1 leg?

That's just about as hypothetical and irrelevant as your question.

The Leafs currently have 2 holes on the blueline.

Move Gardiner, and now you have 3 holes.

Go ahead and explain how 3 holes, instead of 2, is improving the defense?

Move Gards to a team looking for a PMD for a younger capable defensive D.
Fill the remaining two spots with shorter term Hainsey types. Look players with a few years left on their deals and/or sign a few free agents.

Leafs are still 2-3 years away from seeing what these picks will turn into:

Jesper Lindgren (20) - Height 6.00 - Weight 160 - shoots R
Nicolas Mattinen (20) - Height 6.05 - Weight 215 - shoots R
J.D. Greenway (20) - Height 6.04 - Weight 205 - shoots L
Keaton Middleton (20) - Height 6.05 - Weight 235 - shoots L
Timothy Liljegren (19) - Height 6.00 - Weight 190 - shoots R
Eemeli Rasanen (19) - Height 6.07 -- Weight 226 - shoots R
Fedor Gordeev (19) - Height 6.06 - Weight 211 - shoots L

or if Minny is looking to move in a different direction inquire about Suter. The bulk of his recapture will still be paid by Minny and if they're willing to retain 2m+ I would seriously consider a Gardiner for Suter swap.

Suter Rielly
Johnson Zaitsev
Dermott Hainsey

 

[drewjenks]

This fanbase gets a bit stupid when we are emotional.

I've been saying that for like 2 years now.....

If he was on the wing in game 7.....we would have won though.....

You don't win a game 7 with a players thats -5

 

[drewjenks]

Move Gards to a team looking for a PMD for a younger capable defensive D.
Fill the remaining two spots with shorter term Hainsey types. Look players with a few years left on their deals and/or sign a few free agents.

Leafs are still 2-3 years away from seeing what these picks will turn into:

Jesper Lindgren (20) - Height 6.00 - Weight 160 - shoots R
Nicolas Mattinen (20) - Height 6.05 - Weight 215 - shoots R
J.D. Greenway (20) - Height 6.04 - Weight 205 - shoots L
Keaton Middleton (20) - Height 6.05 - Weight 235 - shoots L
Timothy Liljegren (19) - Height 6.00 - Weight 190 - shoots R
Eemeli Rasanen (19) - Height 6.07 -- Weight 226 - shoots R
Fedor Gordeev (19) - Height 6.06 - Weight 211 - shoots L

or if Minny is looking to move in a different direction inquire about Suter. The bulk of his recapture will still be paid by Minny and if they're willing to retain 2m+ I would seriously consider a Gardiner for Suter swap.

Suter Rielly
Johnson Zaitsev
Dermott Hainsey

DeHaan is an upgrade on Gards that will cost much less long term. So are other UFA's.

Gardiner is an upgrade on every LW we have except maybe Marleau....He had more points than every LW thats staying with the Leafs.....He likely gets more at FW & plays we'll defensively.

Our defense gets better at defense....so do your forwards...and Gardiner likely gets more points....

None of that is really debatable....so I dunno what to say.

 

[Tak7]

Move Gards to a team looking for a PMD for a younger capable defensive D.
Fill the remaining two spots with shorter term Hainsey types. Look players with a few years left on their deals and/or sign a few free agents.

Leafs are still 2-3 years away from seeing what these picks will turn into:

Jesper Lindgren (20) - Height 6.00 - Weight 160 - shoots R
Nicolas Mattinen (20) - Height 6.05 - Weight 215 - shoots R
J.D. Greenway (20) - Height 6.04 - Weight 205 - shoots L
Keaton Middleton (20) - Height 6.05 - Weight 235 - shoots L
Timothy Liljegren (19) - Height 6.00 - Weight 190 - shoots R
Eemeli Rasanen (19) - Height 6.07 -- Weight 226 - shoots R
Fedor Gordeev (19) - Height 6.06 - Weight 211 - shoots L

or if Minny is looking to move in a different direction inquire about Suter. The bulk of his recapture will still be paid by Minny and if they're willing to retain 2m+ I would seriously consider a Gardiner for Suter swap.

Suter Rielly
Johnson Zaitsev
Dermott Hainsey

Gardiner alone doesnt get you that. You'll definitely have to add to that, which is fine - but my sense is the organization, based on their lack of deadline activity, isnt too comfortable doing that just yet. Perhaps that has changed though.

Who knows. Either way, i think we both agree the composition of the blueline needs a drastic overhaul.

 

[Tak7]

I've been saying that for like 2 years now.....

If he was on the wing in game 7.....we would have won though.....

You don't win a game 7 with a players thats -5

We had only 14 shots in the final HALF of game 7.

Our goalie couldnt save a thing.

Our top 2 centers were no-shows.

We didnt have any sustained offensive zone time for much of the series.

Moving Gardiner to wing is stupid. Moving him to wing in the middle of game 7 when you only have 5 Dmen playing, is even more stupid.

Moving him to wing doesnt change the result of game 7.

 

[drewjenks]

Very well explained.

For me though: There's (slightly) fewer d-men on a team compared to wingers. I believe his production has more value as a blueliner. Don't think he's any more likely to PK as a winger, and if his ice-time decreases, that might lessen his stats.

The goal is to replace Gards with a UFA (but our problem is RD not LD).

DeHaan would be ideal since he can shut people down & is still young + improving.

And current LHD options still = Rielly, Dermott, Hainsey, Borgman, Rosen, Nielsen.

He would likely drop from 22 minutes to 17-18 minutes per game. But even with that discrepancy....the average FW gets around 35 points in a full season & the average defense gets around 20 points.

If you drop his TOI by 5 minutes & then adjust for position it predicts 71 points for Gards.

(Means nothing though)

But I still think I'd be similar to adding another (less physical) Kadri (that might be damn good at setting up Kadri)....and if we can get DeHaan than our defense improves at the same time.

 

[drewjenks]

We had only 14 shots in the final HALF of game 7.

Our goalie couldnt save a thing.

Our top 2 centers were no-shows.

We didnt have any sustained offensive zone time for much of the series.

Moving Gardiner to wing is stupid. Moving him to wing in the middle of game 7 when you only have 5 Dmen playing, is even more stupid.

Moving him to wing doesnt change the result of game 7.

Putting Gards in the press box would have though....he was -5 & 3 were on him. Re-watch.

He wouldn't have been in any of those situations at LW.....and he'd be a stud.

 

[drewjenks]

...58 years ago

Ask Byfuglien how hard it is........

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Gardiner at LW? You guys are crazy.

He’s a good offensive D with flaws. You need to bring someone in to pair with him who can cover those flaws. If not, you move him to another team for assets or a different style Dman.

He’s a legit top 4 guy still, bad game 7 or not...... lol @ LW