Line Combos: TOR needs to **** or get off the pot in regards to our defense

[Menzinger]

I think everybody agrees that the defense needs to be improved.

That said making a radical reactionary move based off a single playoff series is the worst thing management could do right now.

The majority of the teams new core is either in their sophomore or rookie seasons. They literally have multiple years to sort this out.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I'm pretty sure you coming in here to tell fans what is and what is not an acceptable response to a pretty emotional game seven loss would be the definition of "what's worse".

Swing and a miss.

 

[RoyalCitySlicker]

Swing and a miss.

And hey, here you are responding to it.

Must have hit a nerve.

 

[Beaninfritz]

Yes that means possibly parting with Jake or Morgan!

• Parting with Morgan will set them back even further. Exact opposite sentiment for Jake. I've felt that way about Jake for a long time. Loved him when he was a rookie, but it's been downhill ever since. He suffered a concussion in the minors after his rookie season and I've always wondered if that messed his game up. Sure he can rush up the ice with the best of them and can make magical offensive plays every now and again. But the overall body of work, especially his slow down in his own zone to wait and make a hail mary stretch pass is not a sustainable style of play to win, especially in the playoffs. Yet the coach still continues to give him top pairing minutes.

Same here. I've been wondering that for years now. I mean, he seems to be doing better now than he was some years ago, but something's just not right with him. Too many times he does something that is just beyond rookie. It's like he has these glimpses where he just totally forgets how to play hockey.

 

[Orfieus]

Ok, so I've slept on it and I've calmed down and yet I'm still Disgusted and Embarrassed about Toronto Defense

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

And hey, here you are responding to it.

Must have hit a nerve.

Boredom between meetings.

Ok, so I've slept on it and I've calmed down and yet I'm still Disgusted and Embarrassed about Toronto Defense

I'm shocked and appalled.

 

[17 Clark]

Ok, so I've slept on it and I've calmed down and yet I'm still Disgusted and Embarrassed about Toronto Defense

Don’t forget about the star players not being star players you also have to back Check and help your defence every time I watch Boston they were on top Of our D Very quickly Causing them to panic and make bad decisions

 

[deletethis]

How about this for a little thought exercise:

Ian Cole (Columbus), Trevor Daley (Detroit), Ron Hainsey (Toronto), Olli Maatta (Pittsburgh), Brian Dumolin (Pittsburgh), Justin Schultz (Pittsburgh).

Is that defense good enough to win a Stanley Cup? Is that better talent than Rielly, Gardiner, Zaitsev, Hainsey, Dermott and Polak/Carrick/Borgman/etc?

Perhaps there are some other factors other than just the quality of the talent on defense.

 

[Atareez]

How about this for a little thought exercise:

Ian Cole (Columbus), Trevor Daley (Detroit), Ron Hainsey (Toronto), Olli Maatta (Pittsburgh), Brian Dumolin (Pittsburgh), Justin Schultz (Pittsburgh).

Is that defense good enough to win a Stanley Cup? Is that better talent than Rielly, Gardiner, Zaitsev, Hainsey, Dermott and Polak/Carrick/Borgman/etc?

Perhaps there are some other factors other than just the quality of the talent on defense.

but you are talking about a team who had Crosby & Malkin are teams are clearly built different...plus atleast this group of D tho clearly not All Stars weren't throwing pucks away & losing a lot more battles then they were winning.

 

[Goonface2k14]

How about this for a little thought exercise:

Ian Cole (Columbus), Trevor Daley (Detroit), Ron Hainsey (Toronto), Olli Maatta (Pittsburgh), Brian Dumolin (Pittsburgh), Justin Schultz (Pittsburgh).

Is that defense good enough to win a Stanley Cup? Is that better talent than Rielly, Gardiner, Zaitsev, Hainsey, Dermott and Polak/Carrick/Borgman/etc?

Perhaps there are some other factors other than just the quality of the talent on defense.

Perhaps having a one-two punch at centre like Crosby and Malkin helps.

 

[ULF_55]

Team problem, but biggest on the defense.

We've seen many failures by the defense even when they get the puck it appears they don't know how to proceed.

You can excuse 1st. / 2nd. year defenders, but the Leafs defense is not a bunch of young players. Still some growth but most are near their ceiling.

Perhaps spoiled by the young forwards ability to make an impact, and not seeing anything similar on defense.

Patience.

 

[deletethis]

but you are talking about a team who had Crosby & Malkin are teams are clearly built different...plus atleast this group of D tho clearly not All Stars weren't throwing pucks away & losing a lot more battles then they were winning.

Exactly my point. The forwards are championship deficient in terms of defensive performance. Defense "throw pucks away" when they've got no one to pass to.

 

[Atareez]

Exactly my point. The forwards are championship deficient in terms of defensive performance. Defense "throw pucks away" when they've got no one to pass to.

or its because they panic because they don't like getting hit to make a play

 

[ottomaddox]

I think everybody agrees that the defense needs to be improved.

That said making a radical reactionary move based off a single playoff series is the worst thing management could do right now.

The majority of the teams new core is either in their sophomore or rookie seasons. They literally have multiple years to sort this out.

2 playoff series. If you want to add the 2013 team then it is 3 playoff series. Look at all these warts on defense:

Phaneuf, Kostka,Gardiner, JM Liles,
Fraser, Kostka, Gunnarsson,
Holzer, O'Byrne, Franson

Improving this defense IS NOT the worst thing you can do. It has been a long time coming.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Bunch of hysteria in here.

This defense is average and not quite good enough. Andersen is good but not elite, and he didn't play well enough to compensate enough to make us cup contenders. The sky is falling!

Nothing has changed. We need to top guy to play with Rielly and have a legit 25+ minute top pairing, and if we did everything else would slot a lot better and this defense would go from average to good/great. Same as it was at the beginning of the season.

 

[Morlu]

Fully agree. This is by far Lou's biggest failing as GM. A+ forwards, A+ goalie and C- defense. That might be a bit generous too.
Either way, he's done as GM and the d will look reasonably different to start the season.

A+ goalie is being very generous.

 

[drewjenks]

There's nothing IDEAL about playing a career defenseman as a winger.

This is almost as ridiculous as the TRADE GARDINER hot takes today

RATIONALE FOR MOVING JAKE GARDINER TO LEFT WING:

1) He's a top 20 offensive d-man - but he's also a below average defender.

• Given his age, experience & consistency over time, we shouldn't expect his defense to improve.
• His greatest strengths = skating, speed, offensive rushes, vision, passing & creativity.
• His greatest weaknesses = positioning, coverage, defensive awareness & decision making.
• Every season, his strong offensive contributions end up negated by numerous defensive lapses.
• The logical solution is to let him play to his strengths & provide a buffer for his weaknesses.

2) Adjusting to LW is far less difficult than adjusting to defense or center.

• Wingers have the most sheltered & least structured position in hockey.
• He'll have a second line of defense to cover any mistakes he makes during the learning curve.
• He already has a play-making wingers skill set, so almost all of the adjustment will be positional.

3) Gardiner at LW matches team needs for next season.

• If Komy & JVR are let go, we'll be weak at LW (Marleau, Hyman, Johnsson, Martin, Grundstrom).
• None of our remaining LW's are playmakers or pass-first players (they're grinders & shooters).
• Our remaining centers (Matthews, Kadri, Nylander) are scorers & could all benefit from a passer.
• Our LD should be OK with Rielly, Dermott, Borgman & Rosen (possibly better if we sign DeHaan).

4) Gardiner's new role, ice-time & potential performance.

• He could excel on a match-up line with Kadri. (a weak d-man with speed is still a good defensive FW).
• He could end up as our best 2-way LW (and possibly the best play-maker for Kadri on LW).
• Potential line = Gards - Kadri - Brown/Kappy (which leaves Marleau to support Nylander on defense).
• His ice-time would take a hit, but he could be used in all situations (PK forward & PP2 quarterback).
• Even with less ice, I don't see his production dropping (it's possible he jumps to 70+ points from 52).

I honestly believe Gardiner has the upside of a point/game winger that helps shut down top lines. I also think he could reach that potential within a year at LW.

If that did happen - he'd be so much more valuable than he is on defense. Dermott might even be an upgrade on the 2nd pair & Hainsey is a natural LD if needed. This is the last year of his contract & I don't see him staying long-term in his current role. If there was a time to test it out, its now.

The other option would be to trade him this summer - but if no one's offering a 1st + a young player/prospect (I doubt it) - I'd rather try him at LW.

2018-19 SEASON
Johnsson - Matthews - Marner
Marleau - Nylander - Kappy
Gardiner - Kadri - Hyman
Grundy - Aaltonen - Brown
Martin - Gauthier - Leivo
Timashov - Brooks - J.Bracco

Rielly - Hainsey
Dermott - Zaitsev
Borgman - Carrick
Rosen - Holl
Nielsen - Liljegren

*Assuming we make no trades/signings (hope we do)​

 

[Morbo]

Bunch of hysteria in here.

This defense is average and not quite good enough. Andersen is good but not elite, and he didn't play well enough to compensate enough to make us cup contenders. The sky is falling!

Nothing has changed. We need to top guy to play with Rielly and have a legit 25+ minute top pairing, and if we did everything else would slot a lot better and this defense would go from average to good/great. Same as it was at the beginning of the season.

Oh, if only.

 

[TMLegend]

I blame systems more than anything. Vegas took a bunch a nobodies and turned into one of the best defensive teams in the league.

 

[Tak7]

RATIONALE FOR MOVING JAKE GARDINER TO LEFT WING:

1) He's a top 20 offensive d-man - but he's also a below average defender.

• Given his age, experience & consistency over time, we shouldn't expect his defense to improve.
• His greatest strengths = skating, speed, offensive rushes, vision, passing & creativity.
• His greatest weaknesses = positioning, coverage, defensive awareness & decision making.
• Every season, his strong offensive contributions end up negated by numerous defensive lapses.
• The logical solution is to let him play to his strengths & provide a buffer for his weaknesses.

2) Adjusting to LW is far less difficult than adjusting to defense or center.

• Wingers have the most sheltered & least structured position in hockey.
• He'll have a second line of defense to cover any mistakes he makes during the learning curve.
• He already has a play-making wingers skill set, so almost all of the adjustment will be positional.

3) Gardiner at LW matches team needs for next season.

• If Komy & JVR are let go, we'll be weak at LW (Marleau, Hyman, Johnsson, Martin, Grundstrom).
• None of our remaining LW's are playmakers or pass-first players (they're grinders & shooters).
• Our remaining centers (Matthews, Kadri, Nylander) are scorers & could all benefit from a passer.
• Our LD should be OK with Rielly, Dermott, Borgman & Rosen (possibly better if we sign DeHaan).

4) Gardiner's new role, ice-time & potential performance.

• He could excel on a match-up line with Kadri. (a weak d-man with speed is still a good defensive FW).
• He could end up as our best 2-way LW (and possibly the best play-maker for Kadri on LW).
• Potential line = Gards - Kadri - Brown/Kappy (which leaves Marleau to support Nylander on defense).
• His ice-time would take a hit, but he could be used in all situations (PK forward & PP2 quarterback).
• Even with less ice, I don't see his production dropping (it's possible he jumps to 70+ points from 52).

I honestly believe Gardiner has the upside of a point/game winger that helps shut down top lines. I also think he could reach that potential within a year at LW.

If that did happen - he'd be so much more valuable than he is on defense. Dermott might even be an upgrade on the 2nd pair & Hainsey is a natural LD if needed. This is the last year of his contract & I don't see him staying long-term in his current role. If there was a time to test it out, its now.

The other option would be to trade him this summer - but if no one's offering a 1st + a young player/prospect (I doubt it) - I'd rather try him at LW.

2018-19 SEASON
Johnsson - Matthews - Marner
Marleau - Nylander - Kappy
Gardiner - Kadri - Hyman
Grundy - Aaltonen - Brown
Martin - Gauthier - Leivo
Timashov - Brooks - J.Bracco

Rielly - Hainsey
Dermott - Zaitsev
Borgman - Carrick
Rosen - Holl
Nielsen - Liljegren

*Assuming we make no trades/signings (hope we do)​

He's a 28 year old Dman, who has played D his entire NHL career and pre-NHL career.

You don't just snap your finger and turn someone like that into a winger.

If Gardiner is struggling as a Dman, then do things that help him as a Dman - get him better partners, manage his ice time, etc.

 

[Atareez]

He's a 28 year old Dman, who has played D his entire NHL career and pre-NHL career.

You don't just snap your finger and turn someone like that into a winger.

If Gardiner is struggling as a Dman, then do things that help him as a Dman - get him better partners, manage his ice time, etc.

ya I agree whats with all this putting him on the wing shit? especially when he has 1 year left if hes not what u want on D move on from him don't move him to W

 

[Tak7]

ya I agree whats with all this putting him on the wing ****? especially when he has 1 year left if hes not what u want on D move on from him don't move him to W

This fanbase gets a bit stupid when we are emotional.

 

[Al14]

Ok, so I've slept on it and I've calmed down and yet I'm still Disgusted and Embarrassed about Toronto Defense

Boston knew our weakness was on D, and, like it or not, in goal!

They exploited our weaknesses very effectively when they needed to. They're coaching targeted our weaknesses, they're players executed. Our coaching weren't able to able to adjust our game plan to try and reduce our exposure to those weaknesses. And, if they did adjust our plan going into the 3rd period up 4-3, the players failed to execute, BIG TIME!

 

[Joey Hoser]

Oh, if only.

The Leafs were 12th-best in the league in goals against per game played.

And no, it wasn't just because of Andersen. Andersen had a 2.81 and .918 on the year. Very average.

 

[Buds17]

RATIONALE FOR MOVING JAKE GARDINER TO LEFT WING:

1) He's a top 20 offensive d-man - but he's also a below average defender.

• Given his age, experience & consistency over time, we shouldn't expect his defense to improve.
• His greatest strengths = skating, speed, offensive rushes, vision, passing & creativity.
• His greatest weaknesses = positioning, coverage, defensive awareness & decision making.
• Every season, his strong offensive contributions end up negated by numerous defensive lapses.
• The logical solution is to let him play to his strengths & provide a buffer for his weaknesses.

2) Adjusting to LW is far less difficult than adjusting to defense or center.

• Wingers have the most sheltered & least structured position in hockey.
• He'll have a second line of defense to cover any mistakes he makes during the learning curve.
• He already has a play-making wingers skill set, so almost all of the adjustment will be positional.

3) Gardiner at LW matches team needs for next season.

• If Komy & JVR are let go, we'll be weak at LW (Marleau, Hyman, Johnsson, Martin, Grundstrom).
• None of our remaining LW's are playmakers or pass-first players (they're grinders & shooters).
• Our remaining centers (Matthews, Kadri, Nylander) are scorers & could all benefit from a passer.
• Our LD should be OK with Rielly, Dermott, Borgman & Rosen (possibly better if we sign DeHaan).

4) Gardiner's new role, ice-time & potential performance.

• He could excel on a match-up line with Kadri. (a weak d-man with speed is still a good defensive FW).
• He could end up as our best 2-way LW (and possibly the best play-maker for Kadri on LW).
• Potential line = Gards - Kadri - Brown/Kappy (which leaves Marleau to support Nylander on defense).
• His ice-time would take a hit, but he could be used in all situations (PK forward & PP2 quarterback).
• Even with less ice, I don't see his production dropping (it's possible he jumps to 70+ points from 52).

I honestly believe Gardiner has the upside of a point/game winger that helps shut down top lines. I also think he could reach that potential within a year at LW.

If that did happen - he'd be so much more valuable than he is on defense. Dermott might even be an upgrade on the 2nd pair & Hainsey is a natural LD if needed. This is the last year of his contract & I don't see him staying long-term in his current role. If there was a time to test it out, its now.

The other option would be to trade him this summer - but if no one's offering a 1st + a young player/prospect (I doubt it) - I'd rather try him at LW.

2018-19 SEASON
Johnsson - Matthews - Marner
Marleau - Nylander - Kappy
Gardiner - Kadri - Hyman
Grundy - Aaltonen - Brown
Martin - Gauthier - Leivo
Timashov - Brooks - J.Bracco

Rielly - Hainsey
Dermott - Zaitsev
Borgman - Carrick
Rosen - Holl
Nielsen - Liljegren

*Assuming we make no trades/signings (hope we do)​

Very well explained.

For me though: There's (slightly) fewer d-men on a team compared to wingers. I believe his production has more value as a blueliner. Don't think he's any more likely to PK as a winger, and if his ice-time decreases, that might lessen his stats.