Confirmed Signing with Link: [TOR] Marner re-signs (6 years, $10.893M AAV) Part II

[Rielly4]

Just to clarify, where's 20+ million coming from? I'm reading about 15 million on capfriendly. Is it just assuming about 5 million of growth in total cap?

Not that 20 million is really much when you have 10-11 players to sign though. It's actually pretty tight. Leafs have a good team, but they better hope this group can get it done because bringing in additional help on defense, or stronger depth, will be really difficult.

What are you talking about 10-12 players? Its just d men coming off the books next year and some bottom end forwards who will be replaced or signed to a similar contract below a million. Obviously that cap friendly number of 15 million is accounting for those forwards coming off the books...So its actually more like 13 million space to resign the D men but then you have to realize that our roster will be smaller than what it currently is on cap friendly so its actually even more space. Also who knows what the cap will go up to next year like you said. We will have near 20 million to sign the d men...We have more than enough wiggle room next year and with Liljegren and Sandin coming that gives us even more space to wiggle.

We could definitely afford to sign Barrie at 8, resign Dermott at 4, and re sign Ceci/Muzzin around 4-5.

That will give us a solid top 4 and we will have Sandin-Liljegren while not having to remove any forwards. (Unless Bracco/Mikheyev has a big season and command a raise)

 

[shortfuze]

Just to clarify, where's 20+ million coming from? I'm reading about 15 million on capfriendly. Is it just assuming about 5 million of growth in total cap?

Not that 20 million is really much when you have 10-11 players to sign though. It's actually pretty tight. Leafs have a good team, but they better hope this group can get it done because bringing in additional help on defense, or stronger depth, will be really difficult.

My apologies. I missed Hyman. So they have about 16 million. But you’re right, it is tight. Dubas will make it work. The good thing is that if they have to move guys out the players they can move are young and in their prime.

The defence could use some help but when Dermott comes back the defence actually isn’t to bad. Just hope that no one else gets hurt.

Outside of the defence I think they have some guys that are ready to step in for injuries that have been in the minors getting ready. Timashov, Bracco, Engvall to name a few. The depth is there.

 

[VanJack]

Can a team in the salary cap era possibly win a Cup with three players earning $11m a season each? I guess we're about to find out. But the Leafs don't have enough impact players on entry level deals to possibly pay for the three guys at the top of the pyramid.

 

[shortfuze]

Can a team in the salary cap era possibly win a Cup with three players earning $11m a season each? I guess we're about to find out. But the Leafs don't have enough impact players on entry level deals to possibly pay for the three guys at the top of the pyramid.

You could look at Pittsburgh when Crosby won his first cup. They had Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Letang and Fleury locked up to quite a bit of cap and they made it work.

It’s not like Toronto is in cap hell with older vets locked in for a few years. The whole team is young and in their prime. If they have to move guys out to make it work, they will.

As much as people don’t want to admit it, if they had to move Nylander, Kapanen or Johnsson they have value. It’s what Chicago has to do and they still won another cup.

 

[Dache]

You could look at Pittsburgh when Crosby won his first cup. They had Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Letang and Fleury locked up to quite a bit of cap and they made it work.

It’s not like Toronto is in cap hell with older vets locked in for a few years. The whole team is young and in their prime. If they have to move guys out to make it work, they will.

As much as people don’t want to admit it, if they had to move Nylander, Kapanen or Johnsson they have value. It’s what Chicago has to do and they still won another cup.

But they had Crosby and Malkin

 

[shortfuze]

But they had Crosby and Malkin

Good thing those 2 had players around them to help them win 3 cups.

 

[JeremyTB]

What are you talking about 10-12 players? Its just d men coming off the books next year and some bottom end forwards who will be replaced or signed to a similar contract below a million. Obviously that cap friendly number of 15 million is accounting for those forwards coming off the books...So its actually more like 13 million space to resign the D men but then you have to realize that our roster will be smaller than what it currently is on cap friendly so its actually even more space. Also who knows what the cap will go up to next year like you said. We will have near 20 million to sign the d men...We have more than enough wiggle room next year and with Liljegren and Sandin coming that gives us even more space to wiggle.

We could definitely afford to sign Barrie at 8, resign Dermott at 4, and re sign Ceci/Muzzin around 4-5.

That will give us a solid top 4 and we will have Sandin-Liljegren while not having to remove any forwards. (Unless Bracco/Mikheyev has a big season and command a raise)

The Leafs have around $66 Million spent on just 12 players next season. So if they sign those 3 Dmen for a combined 16.5 that will bring them to 82.5 million. If the Cap goes up to $84 Million that still doesn't really leave them anything to sign 6-8 more players.

 

[Here I Pageau Again]

When a player is added to LTIR, they still count on the cap, however a "salary relief pool" is opened up allowing you to exceed "the cap" (your calculated ACSL) by the value of their contract. For the Leafs, the ACSL will be $81.5m, so Leafs can spend likely right up to $81.5m + $13.7m (Horton, Clarkson, Dermott, Hyman) = $95.2m. They also still have the 10% off-season cushion up until the first day of the season.

But then how does them coming off the books help their cap space for the future? The first person I responded to made it seem like when their contacts expire they will gain more cap space for the future. But I don't get how that can happen, unless they place other players on the ltir to make space or trade players.

 

[nturn06]

You could look at Pittsburgh when Crosby won his first cup. They had Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Letang and Fleury locked up to quite a bit of cap and they made it work.

It’s not like Toronto is in cap hell with older vets locked in for a few years. The whole team is young and in their prime. If they have to move guys out to make it work, they will.

As much as people don’t want to admit it, if they had to move Nylander, Kapanen or Johnsson they have value. It’s what Chicago has to do and they still won another cup.

Let me guess, you think that AM or MM are similar to Crosby and Malkin.....When they signed their new deals, Crosby already won an Art Ross and would had have 2 if not for injuries... Malkin finished second in points, behind AO, in AO's career year....

Yes, I understand that TML paid their players a kings ransom because of "potential", but Crosby and Malkin were way ahead of them at that time and also had protential....

I really don't get why the Leafs fans keep comparing the Leafs to the Penguins... The fact that both teams paid a bunchload of money to their top players doesn't mean that the talent level is the same. And the Penguins didn't win the cup because of the salary structure, they won it because of the talent. They had two players which at that time were top 5 in the league, and you could argue that both were even top 3...

 

[Dache]

Good thing those 2 had players around them to help them win 3 cups.

That doesn’t even make sense.

 

[TheBigThree]

Not exactly. From Mirtle's article in The Athletic:

The Maple Leafs salary-cap situation is a bit of a mess right now, and it means they will likely be carrying a 20- or 21-man roster all season.
Their front office staff are feeling defeated, done in by another frustrating negotiation that went on too long and ultimately didn’t go their way.

Should just fire dubas at this point if that's how they feel.

 

[DFC]

Let me guess, you think that AM or MM are similar to Crosby and Malkin.....When they signed their new deals, Crosby already won an Art Ross and would had have 2 if not for injuries... Malkin finished second in points, behind AO, in AO's career year....

Yes, I understand that TML paid their players a kings ransom because of "potential", but Crosby and Malkin were way ahead of them at that time and also had protential....

I really don't get why the Leafs fans keep comparing the Leafs to the Penguins... The fact that both teams paid a bunchload of money to their top players doesn't mean that the talent level is the same. And the Penguins didn't win the cup because of the salary structure, they won it because of the talent. They had two players which at that time were top 5 in the league, and you could argue that both were even top 3...

The Leafs paid more, for lesser players.

 

[shortfuze]

Let me guess, you think that AM or MM are similar to Crosby and Malkin.....When they signed their new deals, Crosby already won an Art Ross and would had have 2 if not for injuries... Malkin finished second in points, behind AO, in AO's career year....

Yes, I understand that TML paid their players a kings ransom because of "potential", but Crosby and Malkin were way ahead of them at that time and also had protential....

I really don't get why the Leafs fans keep comparing the Leafs to the Penguins... The fact that both teams paid a bunchload of money to their top players doesn't mean that the talent level is the same. And the Penguins didn't win the cup because of the salary structure, they won it because of the talent. They had two players which at that time were top 5 in the league, and you could argue that both were even top 3...

Well first of all settle down. Second. I have never once said or believe that AM or MM are comparable to Crosby or Malkin. I was only saying how Pittsburgh had a lot of money tied up in 5 players which Toronto is very similar to. Is the situation not the same?

 

[shortfuze]

That doesn’t even make sense.

I guess Crosby and malkin were the only ones on the ice? How do you not understand that?

 

[nturn06]

Well first of all settle down. Second. I have never once said or believe that AM or MM are comparable to Crosby or Malkin. I was only saying how Pittsburgh had a lot of money tied up in 5 players which Toronto is very similar to. Is the situation not the same?

No, it is not the same. Penguins had similar money tied in better talent. That makes a huge difference when you add plugs...

 

[shortfuze]

No, it is not the same. Penguins had similar money tied in better talent. That makes a huge difference when you add plugs...

the Poster asked if any team in the cap era had 3 players making 11 million and won a cup. I simply said you could look at Pittsburgh. I never said anyone was better or comparable to the players but Toronto is similar to Pittsburgh in having their money locked up. It doesn’t matter which players are better.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

the Poster asked if any team in the cap era had 3 players making 11 million and won a cup. I simply said you could look at Pittsburgh. I never said anyone was better or comparable to the players but Toronto is similar to Pittsburgh in having their money locked up. It doesn’t matter which players are better.

Pittsburgh's not a comparable because they only had 2 guys making that kind of money. No one else on their roster was in the top 10 in salary at any point during their back to back Cups.

 

[shortfuze]

Pittsburgh's not a comparable because they only had 2 guys making that kind of money. No one else on their roster was in the top 10 in salary at any point during their back to back Cups.

2 things

1. I was referring to Crosby’s first cup. But looking back on it I see that letangs, fleurys and staals cap percentage weren’t as high as I thought they were.

2. On Pittsburgh back to back cups wasn’t kessel top 10?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

2 things

1. I was referring to Crosby’s first cup. But looking back on it I see that letangs, fleurys and staals cap percentage weren’t as high as I thought they were.

2. On Pittsburgh back to back cups wasn’t kessel top 10?

Kessel was 11th in either 2016 or 2017 (can't recall which season). However -- and this is a huge difference -- that's only if you look at his entire salary. The Pens were only paying $6.8 of his $8 million salary, so for all intents and purposes, all that matters is the $6.8 portion because that's all that affected the Pens' ability to add more pieces. And the $6.8 portion would have had him something like 33rd in the league in salary.

The only two players who were Top 10 in salary cap hit in the Pens' back to back seasons were Crosby and Malkin. And by the 2017 Cup run, I believe they were all the way down to like 4th and 6th.

 

[Sheppy]

@Sheppy regarding your post:

Marchand seems to be in his, Bergeron just had a career year, and Pastrnak at 6.6 million is a better deal than any Leafs player.

100 points in 79 games for Marchand last year, 85 in 68 the year before that.

79 in 65 for Bergeron this past season.

81 in 66 for Pastrnak

Krejci also had a career year.

Not bad for dinosaurs.​

Not bad at all. I agree with you. I think the way the Bruins have been able to or will sign their recent stars (Pasta, McAvoy) is a direct correlation to how they were able to build their core and the money they allocated for them once upon a time.

The Bruins have won a Cup in the modern NHL. They are always in the playoffs. Their core (Chara, Bergy, Marchand, etc) were all signed when the league was under a different landscape. Agree?

When a team has their core in place, suddenly any new star players that come in can be put under a particular bar, for example, Neely could've told Pasta, **** you, you are not signing over what Bergy and these guys make, followed by throwing a water bottle super fast lmao. Pasta would agree, because it's their culture they've developed, their core was set. He doesn't wanna piss off guys like Marchand, Bergy and Chara.

For the Leafs, if we're being honest, they've been **** for a long time. Their core only started recently, with the drafting of Rielly, Nylander, Marner, and then was finished with the lottery pick, Matthews. They saw an opportunity to add to Centre depth and they signed JT. This is all under a different time, a different landscape. But also, the Leafs didn't have an existing core in place. They had guys like Komarov, Bozak, JvR, etc. You can't tell these stars (all 20-22 years old), you're making less than those players because lets be honest, our core is better than those players.

So really, Shanahan and Co. hands were sorta tied based on how hungry the fans were to see success. They are not going to drive away all this solid talent they have finally gotten because of financial demands and anger the entire fanbase. It's hard to understand, but when you have such a desperate fanbase who's starved for playoff success and searching for the Stanley Cup, you gotta make important decisions. They are overpayments, but to them, they rather overpay their elite talent, than overpay their 3rd/4th line, or 3rd pairing.

Anyway, enough of that. How was your summer? I think we last spoke in the playoffs two years ago. You guys came so frickin close this year.

​

Thanks for the sensible post, man. Always good shooting shit with people like you.

I can’t say I disagree with anything you said there. Fair points for both sides.

Summer was a little sluggish a few days after that L but lots of beers, lots of golf! Hopefully your summer kicked ass too, man!

 

[shortfuze]

Kessel was 11th in either 2016 or 2017 (can't recall which season). However -- and this is a huge difference -- that's only if you look at his entire salary. The Pens were only paying $6.8 of his $8 million salary, so for all intents and purposes, all that matters is the $6.8 portion because that's all that affected the Pens' ability to add more pieces. And the $6.8 portion would have had him something like 33rd in the league in salary.

The only two players who were Top 10 in salary cap hit in the Pens' back to back seasons were Crosby and Malkin. And by the 2017 Cup run, I believe they were all the way down to like 4th and 6th.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Dache]

I guess Crosby and malkin were the only ones on the ice? How do you not understand that?

They weren’t obviously, but having that much money tied up in a few players is a lot easier to handle when two of them are Crosby and Malkin.

 

[Fantomas]

The key to Dubas's genius is his ability to pay his players the absolute maximum amount of money.

 

[NextYear67]

Great deal. The boy wonder does it again!! Praise Dubas!

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

The key to Dubas's genius is his ability to pay his players the absolute maximum amount of money.

True .. well almost... but you forgot the most important part... not only does he have the ability to do that, he also has ability to get all fans to drink the koolaid even though 2 days ago the thought of 7 years at 11ish almost caused a riot