Top Ten Offensemen (Offensive D-men)

[thestonedkoala]

Andora, what I'm making a point about Burns is that he is returning to his position as a defenseman and not as a forward. He has always been a defenseman but was used as a PF because of injuries. He has the offensive capabilities to be a solid two-way defenseman because of this.

 

[Pepper]

If you want Offensive Defensemen, how could you have left out Adrian Aucoin and Sergei Gonchar? They are the two most offensive minded defensmen in the league.

 

[Juicer]

Neither fit the description of mid to late first rounders.

So I have to pick a player who was a mid to late 1st round pick who was playing on a contender who is the same age or younger than Carlo?

Colaiacovo's injuries during camp (10 days or so) gave Kondratiev enough time to leave an impression. We have established Morrisonn already. The only other player that fits the description of a mid to late 1st round pick who is playing on a contender is Mark Stuart. That is why I had to go deeper in the draft.

He was the last cut from the blue line last year, considering he had a pretty bad injury, Carlo made a serious bid for that spot.

The injury was obviously not that bad considereing he was only out 10 days. Blowing an ACL is a bad injury, Quinn called his injury a "tweak".

Sullivan was really good NHL player at the age of 25, Pat Quinn messed it up and let him go. That had nothing to do with development.

Actually, Sullivan is a bad example, he was developed by the Devils.

Modin was doing well in his first 3 seasons as a NHL player and was traded away because he was far too inconsistent and could have gone two ways, up or down... and from the looks of his play from night to night, it was impossible to predict he'd be a really good top 6 forward.

What? Consistancy is not a developement trait?

Mike Johnson... same guy the Leafs plucked out of the NCAA as an UFA? Same guy that was a ROY candidate? Same Mike Johnson that had 120 points in his first two and a half years as a Leaf? I'd say the Maple Leafs developed him from nothing to a NHL top 6 forward.

Johnson was signed, came in for his first full season and had a great year. He was not developed by the leafs when he was signed as a free agent. Much like Kaberle, after his first year, he didn't get any better under Quinn.

Jason Smith was a top 4 defenseman in Toronto, Pat Quinn didn't stunt his development, but he had a personal problem with Jason and decided to trade him. That wasn't poor player development, it was poor management.

Smith was developed by the Devils, and under Quinn he did not get any better. He then went over to the Oilers and turned his career around. I do agree Quinn dropped the ball on this one thoguh and it had more to do with Quinn's not liking him than his play.

Alyn McCauley would be the only guy that was developed poorly. The coaching didn't help his game and the players infront of him in the lineup affected his growth.

He had 51 points in 65 games as a rookie in the AHL, the Leafs traded him when his value was high. When he was the top prospect. The fact that he's managed only 1 NHL game during his departure has nothing to do with Toronto. He may have been hyped a lot more following his draft, but that's natural. Many folks like you overhype new players and when they're not in the NHL at the age of 20, you automatically assume they were "better prospects" a couple years ago.

I think Boyes was a better prospect a draft, hype had nothing to so with it. Oh, and as for the "many folks like you" part, can you give me some examples?

He has the potential to be a first line forward, but I'd say it's unlikely. He's more likely a good 2nd liner to a great 3rd line player, especially on top teams in the NHL. I also agree, Joe Nieuwendyk carried the line and Ponikarovsky was the better of the two last season.

Well, we seem to be closing the gap anyways.

So you admit they haven't drafted well, I guess that contradicts your argument about player development being the major weak spot. Because how can you develop players when you start with little talent?

Not really, you can do both poorly. I am not saying they have dropped the ball with Carlo, I just don't think his stock is where it was before.

Since 2001 the drafting has been very good. Since 2002 it's been top notch, atleast compared to what we've seen over the last 25 years.

The leafs 2002 draft looks pretty good, but I think saying the 2003 and 2004 draft is a success is very premature.

 

[leafaholix*]

...

This conversation is going nowhere. You seem to have a thing against the Maple Leafs and can't seem to give them credit for anything. There's no point in conversing with you, there are probably a couple hundred people on HF.com with the same stance and if I'm going to have to go through the same discussion on a regular basis, I'll hit 30,000 posts by the new year.

And it's nice to know you've been keeping track of player development for the Leafs, I thought you were a Flyers fan, I guess not.

 

[rocketsfan]

How Can You Forget?!

JOSH GORGES!!!!! this kid is nuts... completely under-rated... go do some research on him... DEFINATELY top 10 ...

and also Dion Phaneuf ... big time as well

 

[andora]

Andora, what I'm making a point about Burns is that he is returning to his position as a defenseman and not as a forward. He has always been a defenseman but was used as a PF because of injuries. He has the offensive capabilities to be a solid two-way defenseman because of this.

completely understand, but i was just asking a seperate question to you

 

[thestonedkoala]

Kay...I think Burns will shut some people up about how bad of a pick he was...

 

[King'sPawn]

If you want Offensive Defensemen, how could you have left out Adrian Aucoin and Sergei Gonchar? They are the two most offensive minded defensmen in the league.

Yeah, and where's Ray Bourque?

 

[Leaf Army]

And in any of those quotes, do I state that prospects shouldnt be evaluated during the preseason? No...Your not getting what Im saying....I was referring to preseason STATISTICS being meaningless.

Nice try.

What if Colaiacovo had 0 points and was -10 in his 12 preseason games?

Would you still be saying that preseason stats mean nothing? Of course not.

 

[Chaos]

Nice try.

What if Colaiacovo had 0 points and was -10 in his 12 preseason games?

Would you still be saying that preseason stats mean nothing? Of course not.

Oh...your psychic now? As I've said before, unless someone puts up ridiculous numbers(like say, 25 points in 12 games, 15 goals in 12 games), then the numbers dont mean anything. And even under those exceptions, they still most likely wouldnt mean much. As with everything, there can be exceptions, but I wouldn't consider Colaiacovo to be one of them.

 

[andora]

i'm curious, i'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but do you consider basketball, baseball, and football pre season stats all to be useless too ? i'm just curious

 

[Chaos]

i'm curious, i'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but do you consider basketball, baseball, and football pre season stats all to be useless too ? i'm just curious

Yes..case in point...Carolina went 0-4 in the preseason last year, and went to the Super Bowl. Preseason is preseason, no matter what way you try and slice it.

 

[Leaf Army]

Oh...your psychic now?

Don't need to be.

As I've said before, unless someone puts up ridiculous numbers(like say, 25 points in 12 games, 15 goals in 12 games), then the numbers dont mean anything.

When did you say that before? Not in this thread.

And even under those exceptions, they still most likely wouldnt mean much.

What?

So if a prospect got 25 points in 12 preseason games, that wouldn't mean much to you?

Okay I give up. I can't argue against that kind of logic.

As with everything, there can be exceptions, but I wouldn't consider Colaiacovo to be one of them.

This is a thread about offensive defenceman prospects.

I brought up the fact that in 16 NHL games (12 preseason) Colaiacovo has 11 points.

What is the problem?

 

[andora]

Yes..case in point...Carolina went 0-4 in the preseason last year, and went to the Super Bowl. Preseason is preseason, no matter what way you try and slice it.

fair enough, i was primarily asking about individual player stats since that was what the discussion was about..

but fair enough

 

[Chaos]

This is a thread about offensive defenceman prospects.

I brought up the fact that in 16 NHL games (12 preseason) Colaiacovo has 11 points.

What is the problem?

Thats the problem right there....look, this isnt gonna get us anywhere. You obviously put more stock into preseason games than I do. Arguing about it isnt gonna solve anything.

 

[Leaf Army]

You obviously put more stock into preseason games than I do.

All I'm saying is that preseason ISN'T MEANINGLESS. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to say. Your arguement is like trying to push a 2,000 pound boulder uphill.

Listen, two years ago Colaiacovo came into Leafs training camp with almost zero chance of making the team. He played amazing, leading the team in scoring with 3 goals and and 3 assists in 6 games.

He literally forced his way onto the team with his performance as a 19 year at training camp.

But according to "Chaos" this is MEANINGLESS. And apparently I'm "ridiculously flawed" for even bringing it up.

And apparently I'm the one with the "flawed logic". :lol

Arguing about it isnt gonna solve anything.

I guess you're right.

I should have given up when you said that a prospect could score 25 points in 12 preseason games and it would still be meaningless.

It's almost impossible to debate with someone who displays almost no common sense.

 

[Ajacied]

I guess you're right.

I should have given up when you said that a prospect could score 25 points in 12 preseason games and it would still be meaningless.

It's almost impossible to debate with someone who displays almost no common sense.

I remember when Richard Jackman scored at a ppg clip during pre-season while he was still with the Stars. Easily a more highly touted defensive prospect than Colaiacovo ever was and ever will be, yet everytime when Jackman played during the regular season he was completely lost and never really cracked the team to earn a regular spot. He eventually got traded for something completely irrelevant nowadays. Same goes for Jon Sim, scored like 12 points in 7 pre-season games and then goes on to vanish once the season starts. There's a huge difference between pre-season and regular season games, it's a heck of a lot easier for players to put up impressive stats during the pre-season than it is during the true season, hence Colaiacovo's stats don't get me excited, nor should they. To prove my case even further, he had 6 points (3 goals) in 6 pre-season games. Yet only a mere 2 assists in 4 regular season games. Pre-season means little to nothing, it's only to get the players warmed up and to have the unproven youngsters trying to prove themselves for the coach.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Ignoring exhibition stats Colaiacovo was the leading defenceman rookie scorer in the AHL on a PPG basis aside from Stafford who is a few years older and probably wouldn't qualify as a prospect anyway. Yet, he doesn't make any non-Leaf fan's top ten defensive prospect list.

 

[Leaf Army]

I remember when Richard Jackman scored at a ppg clip during pre-season while he was still with the Stars. Easily a more highly touted defensive prospect than Colaiacovo ever was and ever will be, yet everytime when Jackman played during the regular season he was completely lost and never really cracked the team to earn a regular spot. He eventually got traded for something completely irrelevant nowadays. Same goes for Jon Sim, scored like 12 points in 7 pre-season games and then goes on to vanish once the season starts. There's a huge difference between pre-season and regular season games, it's a heck of a lot easier for players to put up impressive stats during the pre-season than it is during the true season, hence Colaiacovo's stats don't get me excited, nor should they. To prove my case even further, he had 6 points (3 goals) in 6 pre-season games. Yet only a mere 2 assists in 4 regular season games. Pre-season means little to nothing, it's only to get the players warmed up and to have the unproven youngsters trying to prove themselves for the coach.

Like I said before, I'm not using Colaiacovo's preseason stats as "proof" of his future greatness or anything.

I was responding to people who say that he's overrated.

His NHL success to date was only one of three pieces of evidence I provided to show that there is no logical reason to call him overrated.

I'm still waiting for someone to provide even one piece of evidence to show that he should be considered overrated.

 

[Ajacied]

I'm still waiting for someone to provide even one piece of evidence to show that he should be considered overrated.

Offensively, there are quite a few above or on par with him, and that is what this thread is about.

 

[Leaf Army]

Offensively, there are quite a few above or on par with him, and that is what this thread is about.

I know exactly what this thread is about.

So do you care to explain why I was so wrong to bring up Colaiacovo's offensive numbers in the NHL so far?

 

[Ajacied]

I know exactly what this thread is about.

So do you care to explain why I was so wrong to bring up Colaiacovo's offensive numbers in the NHL so far?

He's played in 4 games bud..

 

[Leaf Army]

He's played in 4 games bud..

Hey bud. Most of the players listed in this thread have played ZERO games.

In fact, in those 4 games Colaiacovo has 2 points. Only 4 fewer points than Trevor Daley who has played 27 NHL games.

Wanna compare Daley's AHL numbers to Colaiacovo's? I wouldn't if I were you.

Yet you believe that Daley should be on the list "easily".

 

[StanleyCH25]

He's played 4 NHL regular season games and 12 preseason games. Preseason games are played against teams testing out their rosters so you can't get a really good read on how they'll do when the season kicks in.

Preseason just helps teams evaluate their players and situations to see how prospects are developing and also to see where they feel they need to work on to get the team to win in the regular season.

Carlo has potential but I think most agree he isn't top 10 offensive potential and you pointing out the 16 pre/regular season NHL games just doesn't make many people change their mind on this.

 

[Ajacied]

Hey bud. Most of the players listed in this thread have played ZERO games.

In fact, in those 4 games Colaiacovo has 2 points. Only 4 fewer points than Trevor Daley who has played 27 NHL games.

Wanna compare Daley's AHL numbers to Colaiacovo's? I wouldn't if I were you.

Yet you believe that Daley should be on the list "easily".

Daley played for the lowest scoring team in the AHL. In fact, the difference between them and the 2nd lowest scoring team was more than 25 goals if my memory serves me well. He had zero assistance. Yet he still managed to score more goals in less games than Colaiacovo. Not to mention how he outscored Colaiacoco in each and every OHL season. Offensively, Daley holds more than an edge in comparison to Carlo.