Top Ten Offensemen (Offensive D-men)

[Flames Draft Watcher]

um, Marian Hossa...

Huh? Hossa was a '97 pick. Pretty early to be judging stars from the '99 draft but Jackman and Havlat are probably the two highest profile guys.

 

[Bileur]

Huh? Hossa was a '97 pick. Pretty early to be judging stars from the '99 draft but Jackman and Havlat are probably the two highest profile guys.

Comrie and Boynton (originally 97 but re-entered) are pretty high profile 1999 draftees too.

 

[Leaf Army]

I have no idea what Colaiacovo has to do so that people won't call him "overrated".

- The guy had a great WJC being named to the first all-star team
- He immediately became St. John's #1 defenceman in all situations in his first pro season

and most importantly....

- In 16 NHL games (including preseason) he has 11 points.

And this thread is supposed to be about offense right?

 

[Chaos]

- In 16 NHL games (including preseason) he has 11 points.

And this thread is supposed to be about offense right?

In 4 games that count, he has 2 points....not bad, but not nearly enough of a sample to gauge anything......throwing preseason numbers in here is meaningless. Hell, John Sim once had a 4 goal game against Colorado in the preseason, and that hasn't exactly meant anything for him.

 

[Leaf Army]

In 4 games that count, he has 2 points....not bad, but not nearly enough of a sample to gauge anything......throwing preseason numbers in here is meaningless.

:lol

Meaningless? It's not the least bit meaningless.

I love how on these forums if you bring up evidence that people don't like, they just disregard it as meaningless.

 

[Chaos]

:lol

Meaningless? It's not the least bit meaningless.

I love how on these forums if you bring up evidence that people don't like, they just disregard it as meaningless.

Its PRESEASON....the games mean NOTHING, and teams arent playing most of their top players at the same time. I really dont know how you can think preseason stats mean anything at all

 

[Leaf Army]

Its PRESEASON....the games mean NOTHING, and teams arent playing most of their top players at the same time. I really dont know how you can think preseason stats mean anything at all

Yeah of course you want to keep saying that it means nothing. Because it proves you wrong.

We're talking about PROSPECTS. Preseason or not, it's still NHL HOCKEY and it's the HIGHEST LEVEL a prospect can play outside of regular season NHL.

In other words, Colaiacovo has had success at every level he's played at.

Want to try again?

 

[Chaos]

Yeah of course you want to keep saying that it means nothing. Because it proves you wrong.

We're talking about PROSPECTS. Preseason or not, it's still NHL HOCKEY and it's the HIGHEST LEVEL a prospect can play outside of regular season NHL.

In other words, Colaiacovo has had success at every level he's played at.

Want to try again?

See, you seem to want to just regard the preseason as just another game.....its NOT. Teams are playing a lot of guys that wont see any NHL time that season, along with a few regulars. Again, Jon Sim scored 4 goals against Colorado in the preseason a few years back..I suppose you would have used that to help project his NHL future at that time, right? And btw, Im sure Im not the only one here who sees that the logic in using PRESEASON stats to try and prove a point is ridiculously flawed.

 

[mooseOAK*]

See, you seem to want to just regard the preseason as just another game.....its NOT. Teams are playing a lot of guys that wont see any NHL time that season, along with a few regulars. Again, Jon Sim scored 4 goals against Colorado in the preseason a few years back..I suppose you would have used that to help project his NHL future at that time, right? And btw, Im sure Im not the only one here who sees that the logic in using PRESEASON stats to try and prove a point is ridiculously flawed.

This whole site is about people assigning value to players who haven't even come close to an NHL arena yet using criteria which is far more irrelevant than performance in an exhibition game.

 

[Jarqui]

I meant he was considered a better prospect last year than he is now.

He's rated about as well as last year.

He could not crack a poor defense last year, and could have been called up at any time, unlike the year before where he played as many NHL games.

Pitkanen couldn't beat out Berg in the World Cup.

He was beaten out by Kondratiev at the beginning of the year, who is the same age as he is.

Showcasing for a trade ? They also had a contractual issue with Max if they sent him down.

Using the Jackman not being eligible to be sent down is a weak excuse, since he was shipped of for a scrub in Berehowsky.

Jackman was dumped because of whining for ice time. They could afford to sit Jackman but they couldn't afford to sit Covo - he needed ice time to develop more than Jackman.

They could have used him over Pilar(who strugggled) at any time.

Pilar plays the right side, Covo the left.

They then went dragged a retired and washed up Johansson out of retirement so they would have to use him in the post season.

For depth.

Well, lets be honest, he only has Steen to compete with, and I think Steen might have moved past him. He did rank ahead of him in the HF top 50 this year,

By two places. Convince us that is significant.

So that is what I meant. I like Carlo's offensive aggressiveness, but IMO his stock has fallen from where it was last year.

Not in the eyes of the organization. Coach Shedden has raved about him as his best player.

Tell us how many dmen younger than Covo played in the top 6 for a contender last season. Pitkanen is one ...

 

[Leaf Army]

See, you seem to want to just regard the preseason as just another game.....its NOT. Teams are playing a lot of guys that wont see any NHL time that season, along with a few regulars.

Right. You're trying to portray preseason as a country club atmosphere where players just take it easy. In reality, preseason games are highly competive

And those players that you say "won't see any NHL action" are still a huge upgrade over Junior or even AHL competition. Anyone can see that.

Again, Jon Sim scored 4 goals against Colorado in the preseason a few years back..

So you're going to discount Colaiacovo's accomplishments because of something that Jon Sim did?

Talk about flawed logic.

I suppose you would have used that to help project his NHL future at that time, right? And btw, Im sure Im not the only one here who sees that the logic in using PRESEASON stats to try and prove a point is ridiculously flawed.

I not just talking about his preseason performance. That was only part of my argument.

People in this thread are talking about him being overrated.

I pointed out that he was hugely successful at the WJCs. He then had a successful first season in the AHL. And in his time in the NHL, he's also had success.

Those are undisputable facts. He's passed every challenge in his career so far with flying colours.

I'd like you to provide some evidence that Colaiacovo should be considered "overrated."

 

[Chaos]

Right. You're trying to portray preseason as a country club atmosphere where players just take it easy. In reality, preseason games are highly competive

And those players that you say "won't see any NHL action" are still a huge upgrade over Junior or even AHL competition. Anyone can see that.



So you're going to discount Colaiacovo's accomplishments because of something that Jon Sim did?

Talk about flawed logic.



I not just talking about his preseason performance. That was only part of my argument.

People in this thread are talking about him being overrated.

I pointed out that he was hugely successful at the WJCs. He then had a successful first season in the AHL. And in his time in the NHL, he's also had success.

Those are undisputable facts. He's passed every challenge in his career so far with flying colours.

I'd like you to provide some evidence that Colaiacovo should be considered "overrated."

Sure preseason is an upgrade over Juniors or the AHL...but its still preseason.....Im using what Jon Sim did as evidence that preseason stats are meaningless. And I dont know how you can call 4 NHL games an "undisputable fact" that he has had success. I myself have never said Colaiacovo was overrated. I was simply countering your use of preseason stats as part of your argument. I think you took what I said the wrong way. It wasnt any way trying to diminish Colaiacovo. Instead, it was in response to your use of preseason stats.

 

[Jarqui]

their seems to be a lot of question about his ability to handle players in front of his net and in the corners.

credible link ?

But he was still considered a long shot when camp opened, whereas Carlo was looked at a having at least a 50/50 chance.

That's false. Max was regarded very well by the Leafs organization. Watters reported that as did others with the Leafs at the start of training camp. Those who did not know Leafs prospects may have regarded him as a long shot but not those who really knew.

I don't see it as being irrelevant. For one, he was traded for another Dman that played over Carlo, and on top of that, Carlo was not picked because he was not ready.

And as we were reminded last week, Carlo was plagued with some nagging injuries last season.

There is a big difference between them getting a Leetch, than dragging a guy out of retiring and spending a boat load on him for insurance.

Yep. One's a #1 starter and the other is a depth player who didn't play that badly in that role.

I want to say again that I like Carlo, and I like his game for the most part. Him not playing at this point in his career, is not a career disaster or anything like that.

Of course not because so few as young as Carlo are cracking contender line ups.

 

[Leaf Army]

Sure preseason is an upgrade over Juniors or the AHL...but its still preseason.....

Sure it's still preseason. But it's still NHL competition.

And you can discount it as much as you want, it's still a heck of a lot more than most of the other players named in this thread have accomplished.

Im using what Jon Sim did as evidence that preseason stats are meaningless.

First of all, there are always anomalies.

Secondly, I think that scoring 4 goals in a game, preseason or not, is an impressive accomplishment.

But if you look at the whole package with Jon Sim, I think it was pretty obvious that was more of a fluke than anything.

I don't think the same should be said for Colaiacovo considering he's widely regarded as a top prospect.

And I dont know how you can call 4 NHL games an "undisputable fact" that he has had success.

But it is undisputable that he's had success in his first 16 NHL games.

I'm not saying he's going to jump into the NHL and continue to score at that rate. I'm not saying he's proven himself in the NHL. And I'm not saying that won't still have a few hiccups.

But I brought it up to show that so far he has NEVER failed to live up to expectations and therefore there is no logical reason to lable him as overrated.

I myself have never said Colaiacovo was overrated. I was simply countering your use of preseason stats as part of your argument. I think you took what I said the wrong way. It wasnt any way trying to diminish Colaiacovo. Instead, it was in response to your use of preseason stats.

I admit that using preseason stats in itself would not be the basis for a solid argument.

But the preseason stats were only part of my argument.

And my argument was based on FACTS rather than some people who just like to label players as "overrated" with absolutely no evidence to back up their statement.

 

[Chaos]

I admit that using preseason stats in itself would not be the basis for a solid argument.

But the preseason stats were only part of my argument.

And my argument was based on FACTS rather than some people who just like to label players as "overrated" with absolutely no evidence to back up their statement.

And my comments were only in response to your use of preseason stats as part of your argument...the rest of your argument is legitimate, but I feel that your use of preseason stats was flawed...just my personal opinion....Im not gonna get involved in whether or not Colaiacovo is "overrated", as I myself have never seen him play.

 

[Leaf Army]

And my comments were only in response to your use of preseason stats as part of your argument...the rest of your argument is legitimate, but I feel that your use of preseason stats was flawed...just my personal opinion....

All I know is that the NHL is full of general managers, coaches and scouts who put a lot of stock in preseason performance each and every training camp.

So to discount it as "meaningless" is silly.

According to your logic, prospects should no longer be evaluated during preseason games because Jon Sim had one great game.

 

[Chaos]

All I know is that the NHL is full of general managers, coaches and scouts who put a lot of stock in preseason performance each and every training camp.

So to discount it as "meaningless" is silly.

According to your logic, prospects should no longer be evaluated during preseason games because Jon Sim had one great game.

Again, putting words in my mouth...I never said prospects shouldnt be evaluated during preseason...I simply dont think it's quite as important as you think....thats all.

 

[andora]

pre season is important, and whoopee jon sim had four goals.. i believe jim mckenzie has a hattrick to his credit DURING the season...

 

[Juicer]

That's been said and will continue to be said about any 21 year old defenseman.

Not true.

By the way, is it possible to add a link to that quote? I'd like to read the article.

Here you go.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Toronto/2004/09/30/650012.html

If you were to watch him on a regular basis (every game, ) over the last few years in Toronto, you'd realize he's shown glimpses of potentially being a dominent #4 defenseman. He's a big boy that can skate with the best of them (big players) and physically dominate any player in the league. He's still only around 26/27 and has yet to hit his prime.

Berg has had the potential to be a top 4 Dman for a long time, it hasn't happened. I think he is a good #6 most of the time, and I think he should be an average #5. I don't think he will ever reach the #4 status.

BTW, I watch about 3/4 of all leaf games.(if not more)

He did miss the majority of the start of camp where they played Farjestad, Jokerit, and Djurgarden. Colaiacovo's absence left a spot open for Kondratiev, Hedin, and Bell. Kondratiev came out on top and earned himself a spot of the roster. Carlo played many games last year at well below 100%, and still managed an excellent rookie year in the AHL.

The facts are there, he did NOT miss the most of training camp and preseason.

The were set on having him play the year in the AHL very early on after the season started. It wouldn't make sense to have your top prospect (that happens to be a defenseman) come in and play before he's ready and battling through various injuries. The Leafs have a history of keeping guys like Boyes, Ponikarovsky, Tellqvist, etc... in the minors because they had older players on the roster that Pat Quinn was very/too loyal to.

The Maple Leafs don't play their prospects unless the players play their brains out and leave management no option. See Antropov leading the Leafs in preseason points back in 2000 (or 1999?), Matty Stajan forcing the Leafs to leave Travis Green unprotected with his great play, and Tomas Kaberle scoring a ridiculous amount of points in the Czech league at the age of 19, then coming to North America and putting up almost identical numbers in the NHL at age 20.

That is my point. Two years ago, he looked like he was forcing the leafs to play him and made the team after training camp and preseason. It looked like he forced his way onto the team then, and couldn't do it now.

I fail to see what this has to do with anything, but I go a couple things...

a) Who's bragging?

Sorry. I may have worded that too strongly.

b) The Leafs main problem was drafting, not player development.

That is a very debatable point. It could be argued either way without having any real proof either way. Boyes and Antropov are players that looked to be better prospects/players at 18/19 than they are now.

 

[Leaf Army]

Again, putting words in my mouth...I never said prospects shouldnt be evaluated during preseason...I simply dont think it's quite as important as you think....thats all.

:lol

You're either backtracking or you have the memory of a goldfish. Some of your quotes from this thread....

"preseason is meaningless"

"I really dont know how you can think preseason stats mean anything at all"

"using PRESEASON stats to try and prove a point is ridiculously flawed."

Next time you call someone's argument "ridiculously flawed" you better be better prepared to back it up.

 

[mooseOAK*]

That is my point. Two years ago, he looked like he was forcing the leafs to play him and made the team after training camp and preseason. It looked like he forced his way onto the team then, and couldn't do it now.

There was no roster spot open for Colaiacovo. You seem to have trouble getting that through your head.

 

[Chaos]

:lol

You're either backtracking or you have the memory of a goldfish. Some of your quotes from this thread....

"preseason is meaningless"

"I really dont know how you can think preseason stats mean anything at all"

"using PRESEASON stats to try and prove a point is ridiculously flawed."

Next time you call someone's argument "ridiculously flawed" you better be better prepared to back it up.

And in any of those quotes, do I state that prospects shouldnt be evaluated during the preseason? No...Your not getting what Im saying....I was referring to preseason STATISTICS being meaningless.

 

[Juicer]

There was no roster spot open for Colaiacovo. You seem to have trouble getting that through your head.

I have a real hard time getting that through my head when Kondratiev made the team. Kondratiev is the same age as Carlo BTW.

 

[leafaholix*]

Not true.

How many top prospects (defensemen) drafted mid to late first round currently playing for a contending organization have played much more than Colaiacovo so far?

Shaone Morrisonn?

Boston was a contender, but after Boynton, McGillis, Slegr, Gill, and O'Donnell, there was absolutely no depth. They had Ian Moran play half the season and were fortunate there were no serious injuries to their top 5 guys, particularly between Boynton, Gill, O'Donnell, and McGillis, they missed a total of 3 games over the course of the season between them.

Who else is there...

David Hale?

He has 2 years on Colaiacovo, but he did play himself onto the Devils' roster.

Here you go.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Toronto/2004/09/30/650012.html

Thank you.

The facts are there, he did NOT miss the most of training camp and preseason.

He missed the most important part of camp, the beginning. Kondratiev made a name for himself in the games over in Sweden, Colaiacovo was injured. Max did not beat out Carlo, he was just fortunate McCabe and Colaiacovo were out.

That is my point. Two years ago, he looked like he was forcing the leafs to play him and made the team after training camp and preseason. It looked like he forced his way onto the team then, and couldn't do it now.

Couldn't do it now? He's had one opportunity since 2002 and he was going through a pretty bad knee injury, still managed to make a serious bid for a roster spot.

Sorry. I may have worded that too strongly.

It's alright.

That is a very debatable point. It could be argued either way without having any real proof either way.

It really can't. The Maple Leafs biggest weakness over the years was drafting. How many first round picks since Pat Quinn's takeover? The Leafs have developed very nicely since Pat Quinn took over, the drafted prior to that was horrendous and questionable over the first couple years under Pat.

Boyes and Antropov are players that looked to be better prospects/players at 18/19 than they are now.

That can't be more wrong.

Boyes was a late first rounder with 2nd line potential. He's been traded twice over the last 18 months, that says plenty about his development. A team cannot be responsible for a players development when he's with another team.

And Antropov was a huge project with great upside, he's no a 2nd/3rd line forward at the age of 24. I can't see anything wrong with that. I'd say the Leafs handled him very nicely, in fact the only reason he's not a 1st/2nd liner is because of injures.

It's been only 3 or 4 years that the Maple Leafs have been drafting well, prior to that they were picking well in the later rounds and poorly in the earlier rounds. A good example being them managing to pick 4 current NHL'ers (Kaberle, Markov, Tremblay, and Modin) in 30 draft picks between 1994 and 1996.

 

[Jarqui]

I have a real hard time getting that through my head when Kondratiev made the team. Kondratiev is the same age as Carlo BTW.

McCabe & Pilar were injured :
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/player_game_log.asp?player_id=987&hubname=TOR

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/player_game_log.asp?player_id=2388&hubname=TOR

Two dmen ahead of Max were injured so that this dman, Kondratiev, on a limited AHL contract and the better one to showcase/hype for the trade deadline, could play :
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/player_game_log.asp?player_id=2346&hubname=NYR

When Pitkanen couldn't displace Berg at the World Cup, there's hardly a ton of shame in the outcome. And Pitkanen was the only 20 year old I can think of off hand to crack the top 6 of a contender in the NHL last year. If I missed someone big deal. You yourself complained about the lack of Flyers defensive depth.

If we ignore the above, then the Flyers fans exaggerated fairy tale starts to take shape about how terrible it was that Covo did not start in the NHL.