Top Ten Offensemen (Offensive D-men)

[andora]

And in any of those quotes, do I state that prospects shouldnt be evaluated during the preseason? No...Your not getting what Im saying....I was referring to preseason STATISTICS being meaningless.

do you mean all statistics? even those specialized ones like hits given to taken and takeaways to giveaways and faceoff percentages etc...

they aren't meaningless

 

[Juicer]

How many top prospects (defensemen) drafted mid to late first round currently playing for a contending organization have played much more than Colaiacovo so far?

Shaone Morrisonn?

Boston was a contender, but after Boynton, McGillis, Slegr, Gill, and O'Donnell, there was absolutely no depth. They had Ian Moran play half the season and were fortunate there were no serious injuries to their top 5 guys, particularly between Boynton, Gill, O'Donnell, and McGillis, they missed a total of 3 games over the course of the season between them.

Who else is there...

David Hale?

He has 2 years on Colaiacovo, but he did play himself onto the Devils' roster.

Trevor Daley was playing regularly near the end of the year in Dallas, Ehrohoff in SJ.

Thank you.

No problem.

He missed the most important part of camp, the beginning. Kondratiev made a name for himself in the games over in Sweden, Colaiacovo was injured. Max did not beat out Carlo, he was just fortunate McCabe and Colaiacovo were out.

But Carlo played opening night with the Baby Leafs, the same night Max opened the year with the big club.

Couldn't do it now? He's had one opportunity since 2002 and he was going through a pretty bad knee injury, still managed to make a serious bid for a roster spot.

I don't agree that he made a serious bid this year. His time will come, but it was not last year.

It really can't. The Maple Leafs biggest weakness over the years was drafting. How many first round picks since Pat Quinn's takeover? The Leafs have developed very nicely since Pat Quinn took over, the drafted prior to that was horrendous and questionable over the first couple years under Pat.

They have had plenty of problems developing their young players. McCauley, Modin, Johnson, Smith and Sullivan all had break out years after leaving Toronto under Quinn. Antropov has been hurt by injuries a bot, but I am sure people expected more after he made the team at such a young age. Kaberle came over from his Czech team and made the leafs right away, and really he hasn't improved in quite a few years. Quinn and his brass have not done a good job developing their young players/prospects, which is why I said it was debatable. If the players they drafted had played for a team who did a better job deveoping their players, those picks might not look as bad.

That can't be more wrong.

Boyes was a late first rounder with 2nd line potential. He's been traded twice over the last 18 months, that says plenty about his development. A team cannot be responsible for a players development when he's with another team.

A couple years ago there was no way the leafs would have considered trading Boyes, now like you said he was traded twice in the last 18 months. Does that not sound like a player who's value has gone down? That would be an example of a player being considered better prospect a couple years ago than he is now, which would mean he had not developed as the leafs had hoped in their system.

And Antropov was a huge project with great upside, he's no a 2nd/3rd line forward at the age of 24. I can't see anything wrong with that. I'd say the Leafs handled him very nicely, in fact the only reason he's not a 1st/2nd liner is because of injures.

Antropov will never be a 1st line player with his skating ability. Nieuwy carrried that second line, and it is arguable Poni was the better player last year.

It's been only 3 or 4 years that the Maple Leafs have been drafting well, prior to that they were picking well in the later rounds and poorly in the earlier rounds. A good example being them managing to pick 4 current NHL'ers (Kaberle, Markov, Tremblay, and Modin) in 30 draft picks between 1994 and 1996.

I don't think they have drafted well, which is why they brought in JFJ who is probably a little more involved with the Baby Leafs and propects in general than Quinn is/was.

 

[mooseOAK*]

I don't think they have drafted well, which is why they brought in JFJ who is probably a little more involved with the Baby Leafs and propects in general than Quinn is/was.

Ferguson signed the guys that Quinn drafted, so two very respected hockey minds agree on the quality of them. So, there goes that theory.

They have had plenty of problems developing their young players. McCauley, Modin, Johnson, Smith and Sullivan all had break out years after leaving Toronto under Quinn.

If they "broke out" the year after leaving Toronto, they were developed in Toronto.

 

[andora]

If they "broke out" the year after leaving Toronto, they were developed in Toronto.

well, not necessarily.. some of those guys were stifled in toronto, and did not fit in with quinn and weren't playing up to their potential.. possibly b/c of bad feelings, lack of confidence, lack of feeling worth from coach etc. etc..

you can't just label them *now semi stars* as being developed in toronto just so black and white imo...

 

[thestonedkoala]

I'm not going into it but Carlo is also one of the only good prospects the Leafs have going for them other than Steen, Stajan, and if Tellqvist can be considered a prospect him too.

I think Carlo is going to be good but he won't be elite. Just a steady guy overall.

 

[leafaholix*]

Trevor Daley was playing regularly near the end of the year in Dallas, Ehrohoff in SJ.

Neither fit the description of mid to late first rounders.

But Carlo played opening night with the Baby Leafs, the same night Max opened the year with the big club.

Colaiacovo's injuries during camp (10 days or so) gave Kondratiev enough time to leave an impression.

I don't agree that he made a serious bid this year. His time will come, but it was not last year.

He was the last cut from the blue line last year, considering he had a pretty bad injury, Carlo made a serious bid for that spot.

They have had plenty of problems developing their young players. McCauley, Modin, Johnson, Smith and Sullivan all had break out years after leaving Toronto under Quinn. Antropov has been hurt by injuries a bot, but I am sure people expected more after he made the team at such a young age. Kaberle came over from his Czech team and made the leafs right away, and really he hasn't improved in quite a few years. Quinn and his brass have not done a good job developing their young players/prospects, which is why I said it was debatable. If the players they drafted had played for a team who did a better job deveoping their players, those picks might not look as bad.

Sullivan was really good NHL player at the age of 25, Pat Quinn messed it up and let him go. That had nothing to do with development.

Modin was doing well in his first 3 seasons as a NHL player and was traded away because he was far too inconsistent and could have gone two ways, up or down... and from the looks of his play from night to night, it was impossible to predict he'd be a really good top 6 forward.

Mike Johnson... same guy the Leafs plucked out of the NCAA as an UFA? Same guy that was a ROY candidate? Same Mike Johnson that had 120 points in his first two and a half years as a Leaf? I'd say the Maple Leafs developed him from nothing to a NHL top 6 forward.

Jason Smith was a top 4 defenseman in Toronto, Pat Quinn didn't stunt his development, but he had a personal problem with Jason and decided to trade him. That wasn't poor player development, it was poor management.

Alyn McCauley would be the only guy that was developed poorly. The coaching didn't help his game and the players infront of him in the lineup affected his growth.

A couple years ago there was no way the leafs would have considered trading Boyes, now like you said he was traded twice in the last 18 months. Does that not sound like a player who's value has gone down? That would be an example of a player being considered better prospect a couple years ago than he is now, which would mean he had not developed as the leafs had hoped in their system.

He had 51 points in 65 games as a rookie in the AHL, the Leafs traded him when his value was high. When he was the top prospect. The fact that he's managed only 1 NHL game during his departure has nothing to do with Toronto. He may have been hyped a lot more following his draft, but that's natural. Many folks like you overhype new players and when they're not in the NHL at the age of 20, you automatically assume they were "better prospects" a couple years ago.

Antropov will never be a 1st line player with his skating ability. Nieuwy carrried that second line, and it is arguable Poni was the better player last year.

He has the potential to be a first line forward, but I'd say it's unlikely. He's more likely a good 2nd liner to a great 3rd line player, especially on top teams in the NHL. I also agree, Joe Nieuwendyk carried the line and Ponikarovsky was the better of the two last season.

I don't think they have drafted well, which is why they brought in JFJ who is probably a little more involved with the Baby Leafs and propects in general than Quinn is/was.

So you admit they haven't drafted well, I guess that contradicts your argument about player development being the major weak spot. Because how can you develop players when you start with little talent?

Since 2001 the drafting has been very good. Since 2002 it's been top notch, atleast compared to what we've seen over the last 25 years.

 

[leafaholix*]

I'm not going into it but Carlo is also one of the only good prospects the Leafs have going for them other than Steen, Stajan, and if Tellqvist can be considered a prospect him too.

I think Carlo is going to be good but he won't be elite. Just a steady guy overall.

And Thelen is one of the only good prospects Minnesota has going for them other than Bouchard, Harding, Burns, O'Sullivan, and Koivu.

The rest are not so good because they get less hype.

 

[thestonedkoala]

*shrugs* You forgot Foy, Bolduc, and Voloshenko but sure, if you want to call it that.

I think Carlo is being a little bit exaggerated, he is a top 15 for sure PROSPECT wise, if he'll hit it is another question but for now he's a top 15 for sure, but staying there is another thing.

 

[Chaos]

Neither fit the description of mid to late first rounders.

No...Daley was just a 2nd rounder, making all the more impressive.

 

[leafaholix*]

*shrugs* You forgot Foy, Bolduc, and Voloshenko but sure, if you want to call it that.

I think Carlo is being a little bit exaggerated, he is a top 15 for sure PROSPECT wise, if he'll hit it is another question but for now he's a top 15 for sure, but staying there is another thing.

Toronto has many prospects that are comparable to those three.

As for your second comment, same can be said for 99% of prospects. Koivu, Burns, O'Sullivan, Bouchard, and Thelen included.

 

[leafaholix*]

No...Daley was just a 2nd rounder, making all the more impressive.

Making the NHL sooner doesn't mean anything when it comes to long term potential and the likeliness of reaching that potential.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Toronto has many prospects that are comparable to those three.

As for your second comment, same can be said for 99% of prospects. Koivu, Burns, O'Sullivan, Bouchard, and Thelen included.

I'm not going to get into this fight but all I'm saying is Carlo is one of about 3-5 prospects that Toronto HAS going for them and he hasn't put up a lot of points in the OHL, though I'll go with your arguments that points isn't what matters but still for an offensive defenseman his best is 40 in a offensive league?

Sorry, 31...

Kirill Koltsov, Randy Jones (is he a rookie???), Michel Periard, Doug Lynch, Garrett Stafford, all put up points similiar to his.

Now the AHL isn't like the NHL at all and guys from the AHL will score more points in the NHL, is that the same for Carlo? I don't know but he had 1 assist in 2 games, which isn't bad...but we'll see this year in the AHL how he does when all the 'rookies' and other defensemen come in...

He seems more like a defensive-defenseman than an offensive defenseman if he's putting up around 31 points in the AHL...

I'm wondering how guys like Burns and Hamhuis are going to do?

 

[leafaholix*]

I'm not going to get into this fight but all I'm saying is Carlo is one of about 3-5 prospects that Toronto HAS going for them and he hasn't put up a lot of points in the OHL, though I'll go with your arguments that points isn't what matters but still for an offensive defenseman his best is 40 in a offensive league?

He had 31 points in 62 AHL games as a rookie last year and 35 points in 35 games in his last OHL season. As well as 10 points in 6 games at the 2003 World Junior Championships.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=50119

Offense is not a problem for Colaiacovo.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Sorry I had to clean up my post because that stats went whacky on me.

As I said the OHL is an offensive league, forwards put up almost 100 points and defensive players can put up 50...

I just want to know how that transition goes from the OHL to the AHL and then to the NHL...

The AHL is tailored a bit different and guys can score more or play better.

Until Carlo goes against guys like Hamhuis, Burns, this year I'm saving my regards on offensive-defensemen players this year.

He had 31 points but how many would Hamhuis got? Burns? Daley?

 

[leafaholix*]

Sorry, 31...

Kirill Koltsov, Randy Jones (is he a rookie???), Michel Periard, Doug Lynch, Garrett Stafford, all put up points similiar to his.

Now the AHL isn't like the NHL at all and guys from the AHL will score more points in the NHL, is that the same for Carlo? I don't know but he had 1 assist in 2 games, which isn't bad...but we'll see this year in the AHL how he does when all the 'rookies' and other defensemen come in...

He seems more like a defensive-defenseman than an offensive defenseman if he's putting up around 31 points in the AHL...

I'm wondering how guys like Burns and Hamhuis are going to do?

Colaiacovo had a better PPG ratio than any other highly touted rookie defenseman last year in the AHL. Stafford was a surprise, but the guy was 23 at the start of last season and will soon be 25.

Not to discredit Randy Jones' numbers, but he was a couple years older than Colaiacovo.

 

[thestonedkoala]

*shrugs* Hey I didn't look at their ages...

I just don't see Carlo being as good as you say he is. Good? Yes, but not star good. Just a very good player like Burns will be.

 

[leafaholix*]

Sorry I had to clean up my post because that stats went whacky on me.

As I said the OHL is an offensive league, forwards put up almost 100 points and defensive players can put up 50...

I just want to know how that transition goes from the OHL to the AHL and then to the NHL...

The AHL is tailored a bit different and guys can score more or play better.

Until Carlo goes against guys like Hamhuis, Burns, this year I'm saving my regards on offensive-defensemen players this year.

He had 31 points but how many would Hamhuis got? Burns? Daley?

Brent Burns does not belong in the same class as Colaiacovo, Hamhuis, or even Daley. The guy was a major disappointment at the WJC and I'd be shocked if he's on the 2005 version of the junior team. The guy is not as good a prospect when he's on the blue line, maybe in a couple years when he matures, but not right now.

 

[leafaholix*]

*shrugs* Hey I didn't look at their ages...

I just don't see Carlo being as good as you say he is. Good? Yes, but not star good. Just a very good player like Burns will be.

Have you even seen him play?

 

[thestonedkoala]

Yes and no, I have seen brief looks at him. One of the things that really irked me about what you said in one fo the posts is that he could be Jovanovski...He won't. I'm sorry.

You know why Burns was a disappointment? Have you seen the guy play yourself ON the blueline or what the coaches and Burns himself have said about moving him back to the blueline? And do you even know where he started playing hockey?

 

[Reilly311]

Colaiacovo is really overrated.

 

[andora]

Yes and no, I have seen brief looks at him. One of the things that really irked me about what you said in one fo the posts is that he could be Jovanovski...He won't. I'm sorry.

You know why Burns was a disappointment? Have you seen the guy play yourself ON the blueline or what the coaches and Burns himself have said about moving him back to the blueline? And do you even know where he started playing hockey?

a couple points... the jovanovski comment.. jovanovski is a very good defenceman yes, but he still gives the puck away and makes bad decisions defensively speaking.. he throws an odd hit now and again that'll get the crowd going (which carlo learned to do in st.john's last year) and he's very good offensively jumping in, leading the rush, and getting the shot off on a rush, all things carlo does..

imo, watching jovo ALOT these past few seasons, he doesn't have a mean streak anymore, a real nasty cockiness that he had as a junior and his time in florida, imo he's really become tame compared to how he was and how he SHOULD be playing with his skill set...

it's not a huge reach that if carlo were to keep developing physically he could reach the same type of defenseman that jovo is now.. i'm not saying he will, as some i'm sure will read these words like that, but it isn't that far off a prediction or comparison..

next, about burns and when he started hockey.. i'm just asking a question.. if you say burns is on par with carlo and using his late start as a foundation point, shall we throw jordan tootoo up there as well into this grouping of prospects? this is an honest question, seeing as though tootoo began playing hockey fairly late as well for hockey player standards.. just curious

 

[andora]

Colaiacovo is really overrated.

and you rarely add anything valuable and i feel your post count is overrated...

*waits for forthcoming joke about my post count*

 

[mooseOAK*]

well, not necessarily.. some of those guys were stifled in toronto, and did not fit in with quinn and weren't playing up to their potential.. possibly b/c of bad feelings, lack of confidence, lack of feeling worth from coach etc. etc..

you can't just label them *now semi stars* as being developed in toronto just so black and white imo...

They did not fit in one way or the other but doesn't make them bad hockey players. Sullivan and Johnson were too soft for the bigger teams in the Eastern conference and McCauley couldn't cut it for some reason.

Anyway, I don't mind seeing players leaving the Leafs and doing well. I just don't see how that is reflected as a big negative on the team where they learned the game.

 

[Bruins4Ever]

If you want Offensive Defensemen, how could you have left out Adrian Aucoin and Sergei Gonchar? They are the two most offensive minded defensmen in the league.

 

[mooseOAK*]

If you want Offensive Defensemen, how could you have left out Adrian Aucoin and Sergei Gonchar? They are the two most offensive minded defensmen in the league.

I don't think that they quite match the description of prospect any longer.