Top Ten Offensemen (Offensive D-men)

[Leaf Army]

Carlo has potential but I think most agree he isn't top 10 offensive potential and you pointing out the 16 pre/regular season NHL games just doesn't make many people change their mind on this.

When have I ever said that Colaiacovo should be considered top 10? Personally I don't care if he is or not.

I was responding to people calling him overrated because there is no logical reason to call him overrated.

I brought up his preseason stats to show that he has had success at every level he's played at so far.

These stats were dismissed as "meaningless" which we've already determined is nonsense.

 

[Leaf Army]

Daley played for the lowest scoring team in the AHL. In fact, the difference between them and the 2nd lowest scoring team was more than 25 goals if my memory serves me well. He had zero assistance.

I'll take a page out of the "Chaos" school of debating.

That's meaningless. Robert Lang was leading the NHL in scoring on one of the leagues worst teams.

Not to mention how he outscored Colaiacoco in each and every OHL season..

Not on a PPG basis. Carlo averaged a PPG in his last year of junior. Daley didn't.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Daley played for the lowest scoring team in the AHL. In fact, the difference between them and the 2nd lowest scoring team was more than 25 goals if my memory serves me well.

So, a team that drafted that poorly has a second rounder that is better than Colaiacovo? Doesn't seem likely to me.

 

[Chaos]

I'll take a page out of the "Chaos" school of debating.

That's meaningless. Robert Lang was leading the NHL in scoring on one of the leagues worst teams.

Yeah, and Lang also had guys like Bondra and Jagr on his team...Daley had basically no one outside of Miettinen(and he was hurt) on the AHL team who could really score.

 

[Ajacied]

Not on a PPG basis. Carlo averaged a PPG in his last year of junior. Daley didn't.

Call me weird, but even for that season Daley holds the better cards:

57 games .. 20 goals .. 33 assists .. 53 points .. 128 pims
35 games .. 14 goals .. 21 assists .. 35 points .. 012 pims

He outscored him, mayne not on ppg (1.00 vs 0.93) but he did score more.

 

[Chaos]

So, a team that drafted that poorly has a second rounder that is better than Colaiacovo? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Having a bad AHL team doesnt necessarily show poor drafting. Most of our better peospects are still in Europe: Eriksson, Fransson, Jokinen, Hagos, Polak just to name a few.....and a Leafs fan hardly has any room to be calling anyone a poor drafting team.

 

[Chaos]

Not on a PPG basis. Carlo averaged a PPG in his last year of junior. Daley didn't.

1.00 ppg vs 0.93 ppg....not exactly a huge difference there.

 

[StanleyCH25]

When have I ever said that Colaiacovo should be considered top 10? Personally I don't care if he is or not.

I was responding to people calling him overrated because there is no logical reason to call him overrated.

I brought up his preseason stats to show that he has had success at every level he's played at so far.

These stats were dismissed as "meaningless" which we've already determined is nonsense.

Well, the fact that 10 out of 14 pages of discussion on the top 10 offensive d-men prospects has been spent talking about Carlo probably adds to the fact that people feel he is overrated. On top of the fact that repeatedly, his pre/regular season stats and his AHL / OHL stats are being brought up to make him look like an elite defenseman help add to the fact that people consider him overrated.

Stats aren't "completely" meaningless if that's what you're saying. But for the most part, they have to be taken with a grain of salt. You have to look at:

-who they were playing for
-who is on their line
-what kind of minutes they are getting
-whether they are getting powerplay / penalty killing time

On top of that, you have to take into consideration their individual attributes (speed, acceleration, size, mobility, puckhandling) and their team attributes (chemistry, adaptation to a new environment, coachability, leadership skills, etc..) and see how well the entire package will translate once it is used in the NHL.

All this just to say that stats aren't everything but they are also not "meaningless". They just help gauge potential but some people take stats into consideration too heavily therefore making others feel like they are overrating players.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Well, the fact that 10 out of 14 pages of discussion on the top 10 offensive d-men prospects has been spent talking about Carlo probably adds to the fact that people feel he is overrated. On top of the fact that repeatedly, his pre/regular season stats and his AHL / OHL stats are being brought up to make him look like an elite defenseman help add to the fact that people consider him overrated.

Stats aren't "completely" meaningless if that's what you're saying. But for the most part, they have to be taken with a grain of salt. You have to look at:

-who they were playing for
-who is on their line
-what kind of minutes they are getting
-whether they are getting powerplay / penalty killing time

On top of that, you have to take into consideration their individual attributes and their team attributes (chemistry, adaptation to a new environment, coachability, leadership skills, etc..) and see how well the entire package will translate once it is used in the NHL.

All this just to say that stats aren't everything but they are also not "meaningless". They just help gauge potential but some people take stats into consideration too heavily therefore making others feel like they are overrating players.

This is amazing. How else do you measure an offensive defenceman if not by stats?

To cover the criteria:

"(speed, acceleration, size, mobility, puckhandling)"

Got it, got it, not the biggest but not the smallest, got it, got it.

The fact that Colaiacovo proved that he can do very well offensively at the next level while almost all the others on the list haven't even gotten there yet makes them over rated.

 

[Leaf Army]

Yeah, and Lang also had guys like Bondra and Jagr on his team...Daley had basically no one outside of Miettinen(and he was hurt) on the AHL team who could really score.

Nope. It's meaningless.

 

[Chaos]

Nope. It's meaningless.

oooh...real original, thoughtful, and intelligent response there. I've come to expect nothing else from you

 

[Leaf Army]

Well, the fact that 10 out of 14 pages of discussion on the top 10 offensive d-men prospects has been spent talking about Carlo probably adds to the fact that people feel he is overrated. On top of the fact that repeatedly, his pre/regular season stats and his AHL / OHL stats are being brought up to make him look like an elite defenseman help add to the fact that people consider him overrated.

Stats aren't "completely" meaningless if that's what you're saying. But for the most part, they have to be taken with a grain of salt. You have to look at:

-who they were playing for
-who is on their line
-what kind of minutes they are getting
-whether they are getting powerplay / penalty killing time

On top of that, you have to take into consideration their individual attributes (speed, acceleration, size, mobility, puckhandling) and their team attributes (chemistry, adaptation to a new environment, coachability, leadership skills, etc..) and see how well the entire package will translate once it is used in the NHL.

All this just to say that stats aren't everything but they are also not "meaningless". They just help gauge potential but some people take stats into consideration too heavily therefore making others feel like they are overrating players.

Here's the bottom line.

The only reason I started posting in this thread was because people were calling Colaiacovo overrated.

I responded with three pieces of evidence as to why he shouldn't be considered overrated.

1. He was one of the leading scorers in the WJC. He was named to the first All Star team.
2. He immediately became St. John's best defenceman in his first pro season.
3. In his 16 NHL games (including preseason) he has 11 points.

I'm not going to argue anymore over the validity of my points. Any reasonable person can see that they are all valid points. We've already established that.

So unless you can provide some evidence to suggest that Colaiacovo should indeed be considered overrated, don't bother replying to my post.

 

[Chaos]

Here's the bottom line.

The only reason I started posting in this thread was because people were calling Colaiacovo overrated.

I responded with three pieces of evidence as to why he shouldn't be considered overrated.

1. He was one of the leading scorers in the WJC. He was named to the first All Star team.
2. He immediately became St. John's best defenceman in his first pro season.
3. In his 16 NHL games (including preseason) he has 11 points.

I'm not going to argue anymore over the validity of my points. Any reasonable person can see that they are all valid points. We've already established that.

So unless you can provide some evidence to suggest that Colaiacovo should indeed be considered overrated, don't bother replying to my post.

Just note, I have yet to say Colaiacovo is overrated. In fact, your first two points are perfectly valid. My only issue is with the 3rd one. I dont think they mean much, you do. Arguing isnt gonna get us anywhere.

 

[StanleyCH25]

This is amazing. How else do you measure an offensive defenceman if not by stats?

To cover the criteria:

"(speed, acceleration, size, mobility, puckhandling)"

Got it, got it, not the biggest but not the smallest, got it, got it.

The fact that Colaiacovo proved that he can do very well offensively at the next level while almost all the others on the list haven't even gotten there yet makes them over rated.

I like the fact that you just handpick points you want to argue about and then forget about the rest that was said.

First of all, we are talking about prospects and not NHL players. So, if the only thing we take into consideration is stats, we don't necessarily get the "top offensive dmen prospects for the NHL" but we get the "top offensive dmen for the ...". So as much as "stats" give you an indication, they are only one of multiple factors.

As for the "criteria".. well, whatever.. you either get it or you don't. If you want to argue about how a prospect's offensive upside is determined, give me your opinion on it first and then we'll talk. If all you want to do is pick at my opinion, then we're not getting anywhere.

Lastly, who exactly are you arguing about that have proven less than Colaiacovo and are on the list? Give me names. Keep in mind that some of those players are younger and still have an untapped offensive upside that people see as higher than what Carlo probably has.

 

[StanleyCH25]

When have I ever said that Colaiacovo should be considered top 10? Personally I don't care if he is or not.

I was responding to people calling him overrated because there is no logical reason to call him overrated.

I brought up his preseason stats to show that he has had success at every level he's played at so far.

These stats were dismissed as "meaningless" which we've already determined is nonsense.

The other problem of course is no one here has provided a "definition" of overrated. Some people consider "overrated" to be a player who is talked about more than he should be. Some consider "overrated" to be a player who's upside is higher than what most see it as. Give me a definition of what you consider "overrated" and I'll tell you if Carlo fits your definition of it.

I personally just think people bring him up in way too many threads and think he should be included in every list that has the word defenseman and prospect in it and when he's not, it becomes a big argument over why he was excluded. That, to me, is part of what overrating a prospect is.

 

[Leaf Army]

Just note, I have yet to say Colaiacovo is overrated. In fact, your first two points are perfectly valid. My only issue is with the 3rd one. I dont think they mean much, you do. Arguing isnt gonna get us anywhere.

I know you haven't said Colaiacovo is overrated.

But I just find it ironic that the fans who are bringing up Junior stats from 4 and 5 years ago to compare Daley and Colaiacovo are the same ones who are completely writing off Colaiacovo's preseason accomplishments as meaningless.

It seems certain people on these boards like using numbers only when it suits their argument.

 

[Leaf Army]

I personally just think people bring him up in way too many threads and think he should be included in every list that has the word defenseman and prospect in it and when he's not, it becomes a big argument over why he was excluded. That, to me, is part of what overrating a prospect is.

That's not exactly how it works.

There is nothing wrong with mentioning Colaiacovo in a thread like this. It's perfectly reasonable- he's a great prospect.

What ends up happening is that every time someone brings up Colaiacovo, some nitwit shows up to say that he's "overrated". There's no logical reason for them to say this- it's likely just because he's a Leaf prospect.

Shaone Morrison was brought up numerous times and there was no one calling him overrated. Jim Sharrow was brought up more than once- why isn't he being called overrated? Do you want me to continue?

 

[StanleyCH25]

That's not exactly how it works.

There is nothing wrong with mentioning Colaiacovo in a thread like this. It's perfectly reasonable- he's a great prospect.

What ends up happening is that every time someone brings up Colaiacovo, some nitwit shows up to say that he's "overrated". There's no logical reason for them to say this- it's likely just because he's a Leaf prospect.

Shaone Morrison was brought up numerous times and there was no one calling him overrated. Jim Sharrow was brought up more than once- why isn't he being called overrated? Do you want me to continue?

Probably some people just tired of seeing his name show up everywhere. In the end, you would probably win the argument quicker by asking them what they consider the definition of "overrated" to be and ask them why they think he belongs in that list rather than try to defend your point of view and allow people to pick at your opinions. Most posters can't provide an opinion of their own because it allows others to nitpick at their thoughts so instead, they nitpick at yours and watch you defend and keep attacking until you either give up or you provide a big enough hole in your argument so that they can just use that against you.

In the end, I'll tell you this much: I think Carlo is a great prospect and I see him as a top 4 D for Toronto. I don't think he will be a top 2 D but I don't think it can be completely ignored as a possibility. I see him as a steady D with ~20-25 pts per season.

 

[mooseOAK*]

I like the fact that you just handpick points you want to argue about and then forget about the rest that was said.

First of all, we are talking about prospects and not NHL players. So, if the only thing we take into consideration is stats, we don't necessarily get the "top offensive dmen prospects for the NHL" but we get the "top offensive dmen for the ...". So as much as "stats" give you an indication, they are only one of multiple factors.

As for the "criteria".. well, whatever.. you either get it or you don't. If you want to argue about how a prospect's offensive upside is determined, give me your opinion on it first and then we'll talk. If all you want to do is pick at my opinion, then we're not getting anywhere.

Lastly, who exactly are you arguing about that have proven less than Colaiacovo and are on the list? Give me names. Keep in mind that some of those players are younger and still have an untapped offensive upside that people see as higher than what Carlo probably has.

Well, you have made it very difficult for me.

I can't really use his OHL stats, the World Juniors stats, or his AHL stats because that only gives an indication and from the tone of your e-mail they are insignificant.

You want to make an issue of who he is playing with but a coach is going to put his best offensive players together so he shouldn't be penalized for that. On the other side, if they aren't playing with the best offensive players and on the PP they shouldn't be considered, IMO.

The skills I addressed above, they are true to anyone who has watched him play.

As compared to the other players on peoples' lists he meets or exceeds their accomplishments and as such deserves to be on the list considering stats, awards, and international play. Because of that I say top five without going into details as to who the other four are since this isn't an exact science. Phaneuf and Barker seem to stand out but none of the others that I can see.

Taking everything into account I would like to see your argument against.

 

[Leaf Army]

Probably some people just tired of seeing his name show up everywhere.

But like I said, it's perfectly reasonable for his name to show up in a thread like this.

In the end, you would probably win the argument quicker by asking them what they consider the definition of "overrated" to be and ask them why they think he belongs in that list rather than try to defend your point of view and allow people to pick at your opinions. Most posters can't provide an opinion of their own because it allows others to nitpick at their thoughts so instead, they nitpick at yours and watch you defend and keep attacking until you either give up or you provide a big enough hole in your argument so that they can just use that against you.

Fair enough.

But I have been asking for someone to explain why Colaiacovo should be considered overrated for at least the last 5 pages.

No one has yet.

In the end, I'll tell you this much: I think Carlo is a great prospect and I see him as a top 4 D for Toronto. I don't think he will be a top 2 D but I don't think it can be completely ignored as a possibility. I see him as a steady D with ~20-25 pts per season.

That's fine.

Personally I think you're really underrating his offense, but I'm not going to argue with you about that.

 

[andora]

First of all, we are talking about prospects and not NHL players. So, if the only thing we take into consideration is stats, we don't necessarily get the "top offensive dmen prospects for the NHL" but we get the "top offensive dmen for the ...". So as much as "stats" give you an indication, they are only one of multiple factors.

i'm not sure on the first two sentences.. but i'll just pick away at the last sentence.. when you use the word indication, what better tool is there than stats..

in·di·ca·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nd-kshn)
n.
The act of indicating.
Something that serves to indicate; a sign.
Something indicated as necessary or expedient: Bed rest is usually the indication for flu cases.
The degree indicated by a measuring instrument.


seems like stats work the best in that situation, reading those .. what are better indications, how hard the guy passes or how he quarterbacked the powerlpay in peewee? list some other indications please

As for the "criteria".. well, whatever.. you either get it or you don't.

likewise my friend

If you want to argue about how a prospect's offensive upside is determined, give me your opinion on it first and then we'll talk.

list yours as well then, and we'll compare and contrast and discuss, and having 'feelings' about how a player will do shouldn't be allowed

If all you want to do is pick at my opinion, then we're not getting anywhere.

well all he's had is his opinion picked at as well

Lastly, who exactly are you arguing about that have proven less than Colaiacovo and are on the list? Give me names. Keep in mind that some of those players are younger and still have an untapped offensive upside that people see as higher than what Carlo probably has.

i'm really starting to hate phrases like this, i mean it's so damn vague and not even logical.. who doesn't have loads of untapped offensive potential.. jesus, pavel rosa still has untapped offensive potential, probably more than frolov...

these phrases are just rediculous

It seems certain people on these boards like using numbers only when it suits their argument.

that's an understatement if i've EVER heard one



i love that one quote by nietzche...

"one criticizes a person most sharply when one pictures their ideal"

see that around here all the time

 

[Juicer]

This conversation is going nowhere.

I thought it was going OK. I was able to keep up with all of your leaf prospect discussion.

You seem to have a thing against the Maple Leafs and can't seem to give them credit for anything.

It is pretty obvious you have a thing for the Maple Leafs and will give them credit for everything, so don't act like you are anything resembling a partial observer and I am the biased one.

There's no point in conversing with you, there are probably a couple hundred people on HF.com with the same stance and if I'm going to have to go through the same discussion on a regular basis, I'll hit 30,000 posts by the new year.

So because people agree with me, you are upset.

And it's nice to know you've been keeping track of player development for the Leafs, I thought you were a Flyers fan, I guess not.

I am a Flyer's fan. That doesn't mean I am not able to follow other team's prospects. If that theory is true, I guess you are totally clueless about other teams prospects.

 

[Juicer]

credible link ?

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NH.../30/650012.html

Already provided the quote.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/player_bio.asp?player_id=2466&hubName=TOR

Must play with more physical presence in the defensive zone.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect.php?pid=1861

He may need to add some upper body strength to handle the larger forwards he will encounter in the pro game.

That's false. Max was regarded very well by the Leafs organization. Watters reported that as did others with the Leafs at the start of training camp. Those who did not know Leafs prospects may have regarded him as a long shot but not those who really knew.

If they didn't think highly of him, they would not have drafted him fro a 36yr old injury prone Dman. If he was such a great prospect, why get rid of him?

And as we were reminded last week, Carlo was plagued with some nagging injuries last season.

Yet he was able to play opening night for the farm team? Quinn called it a "tweak", I accept him missing the team as he is a young guy, bogus excuses don't cut it.

Yep. One's a #1 starter and the other is a depth player who didn't play that badly in that role.

You thought Calle played alright?

While explaining your answer, why don't you give us the total bill they forked out for him.

Of course not because so few as young as Carlo are cracking contender line ups.

Which is why I said that.

 

[andora]

If they didn't think highly of him, they would not have drafted him fro a 36yr old injury prone Dman. If he was such a great prospect, why get rid of him?
.

come on, you know that happens lots.. contender trades good prospect for veteran player to help lead them to a cup... colorado does it all the time

 

[Juicer]

come on, you know that happens lots.. contender trades good prospect for veteran player to help lead them to a cup... colorado does it all the time

Yes, but the trend seems to be that when you are trading for a high priced veteran like Leetch, you can get them for B-level prospects like Kondratiev. The cost of high talent players has gone down.