This team needs a shakeup. What do you do?

[Napoli]

Take my comment as about the quality of evidence, not about your conclusion.

I looked at that site and every player on our team except for Jiricek and Olivier had a negative defensive rating. It's obviously a formula that struggles to disentangle team effects from player effects.

The site is the same for everyone, people post hockey stat cards all the time after games in GameDay threads. I can't say I've disagreed with the data from those games. It's one thing to disagree but at least provide some data that says otherwise if you disagree. Werenski hasn't passed the eye test defensively and there are plenty of number "#1 dmen" on other bad or worse teams with much better defensive ratings. Please do your own research and fact check it.

Call the data dependent on the team being good all you want but when other players on worst teams are better than Z defensively, that theory doesn't hold up.

Okay, show us data. You're making the claim. Back it up. Prove that he is the worst.

See my post above, Werenski is -4.5, go check other "#1 dmen" on worse teams, Seth Jones, Chychrun, Nurse, Brodin, Dahlin, Dunn, Karlsson, Hanifin, etc, those guys aren't anywhere close to -4.5. Hell, you could argue some of those guys aren't even #1 dmen, at least not proclaimed to be surefire #1 dmen the way Werenski is.

 

[KCbus]

You are not the only one, it's taboo to speak poorly about Zach on these forums though. It's really odd, especially when he's objectively bad defensively. It's almost like people don't want to believe we have a 9.7 million dollar rover who just plays offense. He's a great offensive dman but he can't do it by himself defensively and the guys we're pairing with him can't cover up his defensive gaffs either.

View attachment 786135

Zach Werenski is not a good defenseman. Period.

He's relatively good offensively as far as people who play that position go. Fine. There's an argument to be made that his offensive talent makes up for gaps in his defensive play. But there's also an argument to be made that his defensive play is BAD enough that that's not the case. And this far into his career, if he hasn't figured out how to be a solid defensive guy, he's not going to.

I used to say the same thing about Wisniewski. And people would push back against me with "what about his shot? What about his power play production?" And I would say "what about it?" Having some offensive ability doesn't matter if you're taking bad penalties and turning the puck over in dangerous positions multiple times a game.

Werenski isn't great. But no one wants to admit because he's the best we have. At some point, defensemen need to defend, and he can't defend shit.

 

[Monk]

The site is the same for everyone, people post hockey stat cards all the time after games in GameDay threads. I can't say I've disagreed with the data from those games. It's one thing to disagree but at least provide some data that says otherwise if you disagree. Werenski hasn't passed the eye test defensively and there are plenty of number "#1 dmen" on other bad or worse teams with much better defensive ratings. Please do your own research and fact check it.

Call the data dependent on the team being good all you want but when other players on worst teams are better than Z defensively, that theory doesn't hold up.



See my post above, Werenski is -4.5, go check other "#1 dmen" on worse teams, Seth Jones, Chychrun, Nurse, Brodin, Dahlin, Dunn, Karlsson, Hanifin, etc, those guys aren't anywhere close to -4.5. Hell, you could argue some of those guys aren't even #1 dmen, at least not proclaimed to be surefire #1 dmen the way Werenski is.

Just out of curiosity, do these stats roughly remain the same if you go back 2-3 years to pre-injury ZW?

 

[KCbus]

https://twitter.com/kcbus96/status/1737194173785125126?s=20

I'm too lazy to type all this again, but this is why I'm at the point I'm at with this team.

 

[Napoli]

Just out of curiosity, do these stats roughly remain the same if you go back 2-3 years to pre-injury ZW?

I'd be curious to dig deeper and see what they said but so far it's just current year. That may be possible if you subscribed to the service.

 

[majormajor]

Just out of curiosity, do these stats roughly remain the same if you go back 2-3 years to pre-injury ZW?

We can't see them on that site but I can say assuredly that they do not. It's just a this year thing. And I think it's mostly team effect on the stat lines. Our entire team is underwater on it.

 

[tunnelvision]

I see both good and bad qualities in Werenski's defensive game.

Good: Strong, balanced and effortless skater. Great at positioning his body in puck battles and anticipating opponent's moves. Solid stick checker.

Bad: Seeming work ethic and attention to detail are questionable at times. Slow to react to loose pucks and secondary chances. Not a real physical threat in any situation that can push players off puck with will and raw power.

If we want to evaluate Werenski's defensive impact from a broader perspective, we can of course think about what kind of leader he is in the room and on the bench, but also speculate what kind of influence he might be to younger players looking up to him on ice, based on his strengths and weaknesses.

I can imagine him being potentially a good role model or example to younger defenseman who struggle at defensive details Werenski more or less excels at. For example, when Peeke was first introduced to the league, he might have been impressed and inspired by Werenski's poise, calmness and smarts. Maybe watching Werenski up close had some positive impact on his defensive reads and puck poise, at least to some extent.

I'm not sure however what a young D prospect with similar strengths and weaknesses, like Svozil, will take from watching Werenski's game. Lack of speed, strength and motor seem to be the biggest issues for Svozil. I wonder how much more he would benefit from a defensive leader who has more of a hustling style of playing that would make him realize how hard and consistently he needs to push and compete to survive in the NHL.

I think Seth Jones at his peak was bit of a combination of two styles: lots of aggressiveness and high effort level in every shift but who could also make patient and smart defensive plays. Currently we don't have that type of "complete package" veteran on the backend. Jiricek has potential to become that type one day, but he's not there yet.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Many critiques of Werenski's game begin with the flawed notion about his effort. He a a strong but smooth skater, and he's getting where he needs to be in all three zones without appearing to be making great effort. He may not be a crushing checker or a road-grader in the crease in front of his own net, but he doesn't lack for engaging physically, along the board or positionally. His demeanor is even-keel, so we don't get a lot of visible, outward emotional reaction from him as fans. While I, too, personally prefer the visible passion of a guy like Nick Foligno, we often confuse a cool exterior for laissez faire, and that's surely not the case with Werenski.

This is not to say his game doesn't warrant some critique. I just don't believe we're discussing it in the right context.

I'm going to take this one step further and say we're doing the same thing any time the idea of "identity" crops up. It seems we most often equate "identity" with hard to play against or pressure forechecking or whatever blue-collar, old-time hockey descriptor you want. What if we are a rush team that allows possession but attempts to keep chances against from lower-threat areas and prepared to counter-attack by keeping active sticks? It might not be the identity we'd (as fans) prefer, because it's shown that other teams that seem to lack that top level of engagement also seem to not have a way to score out of the system. But not having the identity we want does not equal not having an identity.

 

[DarkandStormy]

If Rick Nash wants to be some sort of team ambassador type figurehead, I am ok with that. He can do things like represent the team at the draft lottery. But he should be kept out of the room when important decisions are being made.

If Rick Nash wants to one day be a real hockey executive, then he should be fired with the rest of the morons. If you starred for a team and want to be be an executive, I think you need to prove yourself. Part of proving yourself is having a guy on a team not associated with you be willing to take a risk and hire you. There was no risk for anyone in the CBJ front office hiring Nash. But a guy in Dallas, for example, would be putting his own reputation and possibly his own job on the line by hiring Nash. Let’s see if there is another team out there willing to give him a shot. If not, let’s see if Nash is willing to go work his way up by starting in the ECHL or Canadian Juniors like a normal guy.

Chris Clark could be promoted to AGM or GM and Nash can go cut his teeth as GM of Cleveland for a few years.

 

[MoeBartoli]

I hon

Chris Clark could be promoted to AGM or GM and Nash can go cut his teeth as GM of Cleveland for a few years.

I honestly don’t know enough about Clark to pass judgement. I do know our past assistant GMs- Zito and McFarland - are doing well in GM roles. I‘ll just say this - if he was a strong advocate Babcock he’d be a hard pass for me.

 

[EDM]

Promoting Clark would keep everything in-house again and would not result in the clean fresh view that most of us want. I would be dead set against Clark

 

[majormajor]

I see both good and bad qualities in Werenski's defensive game.

Good: Strong, balanced and effortless skater. Great at positioning his body in puck battles and anticipating opponent's moves. Solid stick checker.

Bad: Seeming work ethic and attention to detail are questionable at times. Slow to react to loose pucks and secondary chances. Not a real physical threat in any situation that can push players off puck with will and raw power.

If we want to evaluate Werenski's defensive impact from a broader perspective, we can of course think about what kind of leader he is in the room and on the bench, but also speculate what kind of influence he might be to younger players looking up to him on ice, based on his strengths and weaknesses.

I can imagine him being potentially a good role model or example to younger defenseman who struggle at defensive details Werenski more or less excels at. For example, when Peeke was first introduced to the league, he might have been impressed and inspired by Werenski's poise, calmness and smarts. Maybe watching Werenski up close had some positive impact on his defensive reads and puck poise, at least to some extent.

I'm not sure however what a young D prospect with similar strengths and weaknesses, like Svozil, will take from watching Werenski's game. Lack of speed, strength and motor seem to be the biggest issues for Svozil. I wonder how much more he would benefit from a defensive leader who has more of a hustling style of playing that would make him realize how hard and consistently he needs to push and compete to survive in the NHL.

I think Seth Jones at his peak was bit of a combination of two styles: lots of aggressiveness and high effort level in every shift but who could also make patient and smart defensive plays. Currently we don't have that type of "complete package" veteran on the backend. Jiricek has potential to become that type one day, but he's not there yet.

I don't think Werenski has a work ethic or hustle issue. His style is typical of your 24-25 minute a night #1D who covers a lot of ice. He covers more ice than any other Jacket in the course of a game. Even per shift, he covers a ton of ice, it's his powerful stride that is deceiving some folks.

That said, I would like him to be more physical, use his body more defensively to get position. He has the strength for it but is playing too soft in my opinion. Again though, this goes along with the big minutes.

I'd like to see what it's like with more even minutes - which we could do as our D fills out. If nexts year's pairings look like this:

Werenski - Boqvist
Provorov - Jiricek
Mateychuk - Severson
Blanks/Guddy

Then we can just roll them even and get more high intensity out of Werenski.

 

[EDM]

I like those pairings

 

[koteka]

I'm going to take this one step further and say we're doing the same thing any time the idea of "identity" crops up. It seems we most often equate "identity" with hard to play against or pressure forechecking or whatever blue-collar, old-time hockey descriptor you want. What if we are a rush team that allows possession but attempts to keep chances against from lower-threat areas and prepared to counter-attack by keeping active sticks? It might not be the identity we'd (as fans) prefer, because it's shown that other teams that seem to lack that top level of engagement also seem to not have a way to score out of the system. But not having the identity we want does not equal not having an identity.

I‘ll disagree with this. If we had an actual identity I don’t think you would have people complaining about not having an identity. We’d probably complain that we have the wrong identity.

The notion we don’t have an identity comes from (1) a front office that doesn’t express an identity they are trying to build, (2) the lack of a consistent identity on the ice, (3) what sometimes appears to be a disagreement between the coach and front office about the style of play, and (4) the idea that Jarmo tries to win individual moves more than he has a grand strategy he is trying to build toward.

I’d say teams like Edmonton and Toronto have strong identities that have nothing to do with that old-time blue collar hockey mentality.

 

[Heavy Metal Jackets]

I’d say teams like Edmonton and Toronto have strong identities that have nothing to do with that old-time blue collar hockey mentality.

You mean outscoring the opponent because of bad defense and goaltending? It's an identity that have got neither team a cup yet.

 

[Ice9]

Zachs shoulder is probably toast. I had that injury in 95 and its never been very good since. BTW, my surgeon was the shoulder surgeon/specialist for the US Olympic team during the 90s so.. he was good.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I‘ll disagree with this. If we had an actual identity I don’t think you would have people complaining about not having an identity. We’d probably complain that we have the wrong identity.

The notion we don’t have an identity comes from (1) a front office that doesn’t express an identity they are trying to build, (2) the lack of a consistent identity on the ice, (3) what sometimes appears to be a disagreement between the coach and front office about the style of play, and (4) the idea that Jarmo tries to win individual moves more than he has a grand strategy he is trying to build toward.

I’d say teams like Edmonton and Toronto have strong identities that have nothing to do with that old-time blue collar hockey mentality.

What has Edmonton or Toronto’s GM publicly expressed their team identity to be?

 

[koteka]

What has Edmonton or Toronto’s GM publicly expressed their team identity to be?

I believe Dubas repeatedly said they would not trade any of the Big 4 thus making their identity their offensive potential.

Edmonton is a mess, but it is obvious their approach has been focus on winning on the power play.

Neither team is successful in the playoffs, but they have identities. We also weren’t very successful in the playoffs when we had an identity.

 

[koteka]

You mean outscoring the opponent because of bad defense and goaltending? It's an identity that have got neither team a cup yet.

Our old tough to play against “you are going to feel it the next day if you played the Jackets” identity never got us a Cup either. Having an identity doesn’t guarantee success.

 

[stevo61]

Zachs shoulder is probably toast. I had that injury in 95 and its never been very good since. BTW, my surgeon was the shoulder surgeon/specialist for the US Olympic team during the 90s so.. he was good.

eh, too much we dont know to say something like that. How bad did your injuries compare? What was your fitness level? How did your rehabs compare? You dont think surgery/recovery has improved in the last 25+ years?

 

[Ice9]

What I think is that missing labrum is missing labrum. The stability of the shoulder is compromised.

 

[jacketsnation]

I see both good and bad qualities in Werenski's defensive game.

Good: Strong, balanced and effortless skater. Great at positioning his body in puck battles and anticipating opponent's moves. Solid stick checker.

Bad: Seeming work ethic and attention to detail are questionable at times. Slow to react to loose pucks and secondary chances. Not a real physical threat in any situation that can push players off puck with will and raw power.

If we want to evaluate Werenski's defensive impact from a broader perspective, we can of course think about what kind of leader he is in the room and on the bench, but also speculate what kind of influence he might be to younger players looking up to him on ice, based on his strengths and weaknesses.

I can imagine him being potentially a good role model or example to younger defenseman who struggle at defensive details Werenski more or less excels at. For example, when Peeke was first introduced to the league, he might have been impressed and inspired by Werenski's poise, calmness and smarts. Maybe watching Werenski up close had some positive impact on his defensive reads and puck poise, at least to some extent.

I'm not sure however what a young D prospect with similar strengths and weaknesses, like Svozil, will take from watching Werenski's game. Lack of speed, strength and motor seem to be the biggest issues for Svozil. I wonder how much more he would benefit from a defensive leader who has more of a hustling style of playing that would make him realize how hard and consistently he needs to push and compete to survive in the NHL.

I think Seth Jones at his peak was bit of a combination of two styles: lots of aggressiveness and high effort level in every shift but who could also make patient and smart defensive plays. Currently we don't have that type of "complete package" veteran on the backend. Jiricek has potential to become that type one day, but he's not there yet.

Great breakdown

 

[Heavy Metal Jackets]

Our old tough to play against “you are going to feel it the next day if you played the Jackets” identity never got us a Cup either. Having an identity doesn’t guarantee success.

True, we were a little more successful with an identity then. What do you think the team's identity should be as they construct this roster?

 

[EspenK]

True, we were a little more successful with an identity then. What do you think the team's identity should be as they construct this roster?

Whatever the Boston Bruins identity is

 

[BB88]

Whatever the Boston Bruins identity is

Fantilli is build in the brand of Bostons identity and I believe around him you can build something similar.

Right now he’s just too young to be a leader like that but I hope he wears the C next