The Official WTF is Pierre Dorion doing thread

[Puikiou]

Used to ruthlessly laugh at caps fans for that ridiculous Forsberg trade, now I'm scared to death karma might be circling back. Both players are products of the same league too.

What a terrible outcome to an already terrible trade it'd be if Dalhen became any sort of impact player while Burrows watches from retirement.

 

[BondraTime]

there is so much hyperbole related to Dahlen....it just feeds itself....I will take you at your word that you watched a lot of his games in Sweden. So, then please enlightening me....here are Dahlen's stats in his draft year

2015-16 Timra IK Swe-1 51 15 14 29

if he went over PPG from Dec 2015 to April 2016 but only posted 29 points in 51 games and assuming their season runs roughly the same as ours...then he pretty much had to go damn near 0 for however many games played prior to Dec 2015. What changed? 29 points in 51 games in his draft year versus pettersson's near PPG in his draft year....not hard to understand why one went 5th overall and the other was a mid 2nd rounder

He had 8 points in 32 games to start the 2015-16 season. Ended the regular season off scoring 21 points in 19 games, then 7 points in 5 games (he scored 6 of his teams 12 goals) in the qualification round. He clearly showed he was capable of much more in the last 2/5 of his season, and his 2016-17 season only furthered that point.

Thankfully, prospects aren't only judged by the stats they put up in their draft year. To the underlined, his 2015-16 season was ~late first-early 2nd selection worthy, which is generally where he was ranked.

His season this year, however, has made his stock rise, and pretty significantly.

immense success = absolute beast = outstanding season yet in the eyes of our management his stock went down and he was our 8th or 9th best prospect

I know that's what Dorian said, but I'm not an idiot. I've been around hockey and specifically prospects for a long enough time to know that's teamspeak. There is 0 possibility that they somehow, magically turned sour on Dahlen with his improved season.

“We got a guy that we wanted to get in Logan Brown and then we got a guy in the second (Dahlen) our guys absolutely loved. Skill is unbelievable and hockey sense is off the charts. He’s just got to get stronger,” said GM Pierre Dorion. “It’s not always going to be rosy. There’s always the slump after you get drafted and it happens with everyone. Maybe it didn’t happen with (Sidney) Crosby but it happens with most of the players. We’re really happy with those two selections. Both were in our top 30 and we’re very happy about that.”

Things sure changed quick when he had to put a spin on things.

 

[JD1]

I know that's what Dorian said, but I'm not an idiot. I've been around hockey and specifically prospects for a long enough time to know that's teamspeak. There is 0 possibility that they somehow, magically turned sour on Dahlen with his improved season.

“We got a guy that we wanted to get in Logan Brown and then we got a guy in the second (Dahlen) our guys absolutely loved. Skill is unbelievable and hockey sense is off the charts. He’s just got to get stronger,†said GM Pierre Dorion. “It’s not always going to be rosy. There’s always the slump after you get drafted and it happens with everyone. Maybe it didn’t happen with (Sidney) Crosby but it happens with most of the players. We’re really happy with those two selections. Both were in our top 30 and we’re very happy about that.â€

Things sure changed quick when he had to put a spin on things.

maybe they never soured on him at all - Dorion never said they soured on him - he simply said he was our 8th or 9th best prospect at least in the 20 minute interview I listened to....he never crapped on dahlen....and he just went through a long list of guys we had internally ranked higher

you keep saying the bolded bit - if your stats are right and he finished off the last 20 or so regular season games plus playoffs as a PPG....would he had to be PPG ++ to improve? at least offensively. So he didn't really improve offensively this past year from the way that he finished the previous year....at least statistically he didn't.....so what is it he improved upon to have all the superlatives being thrown at him?

 

[BonkTastic]

I know that's what Dorian said, but I'm not an idiot. I've been around hockey and specifically prospects for a long enough time to know that's teamspeak.

I find that a lot of what Dorion says publicly sounds like teamspeak, IMO.

I'm surprised many people take him at his word, most of the time he's clearly just saying things fans want to hear regardless of whether it's true or not.

 

[Samsquanch]

maybe they never soured on him at all - Dorion never said they soured on him - he simply said he was our 8th or 9th best prospect at least in the 20 minute interview I listened to....he never crapped on dahlen....and he just went through a long list of guys we had internally ranked higher

you keep saying the bolded bit - if your stats are right and he finished off the last 20 or so regular season games plus playoffs as a PPG....would he had to be PPG ++ to improve? at least offensively. So he didn't really improve offensively this past year from the way that he finished the previous year....at least statistically he didn't.....so what is it he improved upon to have all the superlatives being thrown at him?

I remember Dorion specifically mentioned Harpur as one of those guys they had ranked above Dahlen, and people cut him up for it..

Then the playoffs happened and he looked awesome out there with all things considered.

 

[BondraTime]

maybe they never soured on him at all - Dorion never said they soured on him - he simply said he was our 8th or 9th best prospect at least in the 20 minute interview I listened to....he never crapped on dahlen....and he just went through a long list of guys we had internally ranked higher

you keep saying the bolded bit - if your stats are right and he finished off the last 20 or so regular season games plus playoffs as a PPG....would he had to be PPG ++ to improve? at least offensively. So he didn't really improve offensively this past year from the way that he finished the previous year....at least statistically he didn't.....so what is it he improved upon to have all the superlatives being thrown at him?

Then that opens up that we traded what Dorian valued as a 2016 1st round pick with an extra year of great development for Burrows...even worse

I find it hard to believe a guy "ranked in the top 30" in a very strong draft would be our 8th/9th prospect. Doesn't matter at this point anyways, neither statement made is quantifiable.

The fact he scored 25 goals in 45 games compared to 15 in 51. Finishing top 5 in scoring in the league. Showing he has the ability to consistently produce over a full season. Scoring 5 goals and 6 points in the World Juniors.

I'll just drop it, we've been going in circles for days.

 

[bert]

I remember Dorion specifically mentioned Harpur as one of those guys they had ranked above Dahlen, and people cut him up for it..

Then the playoffs happened and he looked awesome out there with all things considered.

Having other good prospects isnt a reason to give others away.

 

[Samsquanch]

Having other good prospects isnt a reason to give others away.

Meh we're fine imo. Between Perron and Chlapik I'm not worried about losing Dahlen. You have to give to get.

The team showed Karlsson that they are going to push when they can, and they ended up being 1 goal away from the finals.

It's hilarious because people pretend like we gave away assets and got nothing in return. We got depth, and that allowed to us to go deep in the playoffs, and push the eventual champs to within 1 goal of elimination in 2OT.

We did something last year, and people are being wilfully blind to that, and to the fact that our GM has put together a great coaching staff, and a team that really gels well together on and off the ice.

 

[Micklebot]

This is starting to sound like a fishing story, every time I hear it, it seems Dorion had Dahlen ranked lower and lower in our prospect pool.

I suspect the team ranked him in the 4-7 slot, comfortably behind the big three of Brown, Chabot and White, and in the mix with Chlapik, Hogberg, Jaros and maybe guys like Harpur and Paul (though they weren't happy with Paul's season)

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Pump one up, dump irrationally on the other...

Dahlen is just a 2nd rounder that will surely bust like the overwhelming majority do. At least we got a clutch 2nd/3rd liner with great leadership qualities, pk ability, and the willingness to go to the dirty areas. He is old but he's not certainly not slow.

The irony in this post is delicious.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I think we can all agree on one thing: whether you think Dahlen will pan out or not, as a trade chip, he was worth more than what we got. A prospect exceeding expectations and really blossoming in his draft+1 year definitely has good value around the league.

I think that's the big issue with folks. Dorion isn't getting full value from our trade chips (Zibby, Dahlen), and has added picks on top of those assets.

Now I'm not bashing Dorion here. Sometimes, when a team decides to go all in, you're going to overpay a bit to get a guy who can help the team right now. I get it. It's perfectly fine to like the trades for how they improve the team now, and it's also ok to pan the trades based on the future evaluation.

Now all that said....I really don't want to hear whenever Zib or Dahlen have a great game in the future. The trades are done, and I hope both guys do well...no sense constantly rubbing salt in the wound.

 

[JD1]

This is starting to sound like a fishing story, every time I hear it, it seems Dorion had Dahlen ranked lower and lower in our prospect pool.

I suspect the team ranked him in the 4-7 slot, comfortably behind the big three of Brown, Chabot and White, and in the mix with Chlapik, Hogberg, Jaros and maybe guys like Harpur and Paul (though they weren't happy with Paul's season)

not from me you don't. ..I heard that interview live on 1200 and I consistently said the same thing....8th or 9th which was the information he relayed in that interview

 

[JD1]

Then that opens up that we traded what Dorian valued as a 2016 1st round pick with an extra year of great development for Burrows...even worse

I find it hard to believe a guy "ranked in the top 30" in a very strong draft would be our 8th/9th prospect. Doesn't matter at this point anyways, neither statement made is quantifiable.

Ottawa traded up to get Brown right? they drafted him at 11th? Your equating "being in our top 30" with having him pegged as a first rounder. That's different. You think say Matthews and Laine were on our list? Not where we drafted from.

IT may be hard to believe that he was ranked 8th ot 9th but that's where he was. Shouldn't you be thrilled that someone you've followed so closely is that far down? Bodes well for the team doesn't it?

PD did last year's exit interviews. According to PD this is the type of trade the players asked for to give them a chance in the playoffs. I'm happy we have the prospects to acquire talent at the TDL instead of shred it or worse stand pat because of budget.

The team was looking good. Melnyk did what he said he would when the timing was right and committed more money. PD used the prospect depth and the extra money to acquire some legit bench strength and the team has a fabulous run.

Yet seems like many here want to vilify PD and EM. I find that odd.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I remember Dorion specifically mentioned Harpur as one of those guys they had ranked above Dahlen, and people cut him up for it..

Then the playoffs happened and he looked awesome out there with all things considered.

I don't remember anyone cutting Doroion up for Harpur> Dahlen .. Link?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I find that a lot of what Dorion says publicly sounds like teamspeak, IMO.

I'm surprised many people take him at his word, most of the time he's clearly just saying things fans want to hear regardless of whether it's true or not.

Agreed. Dorion is a used car salesman imo;... She's a beaut. Great gas mileage too. How 'bout a high five on a great deal

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Having other good prospects isnt a reason to give others away.

Indeed.

That's why the point is that we had other better prospects.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Indeed.

That's why the point is that we had other better prospects.

That's the opinion or sales job in question

 

[Do Make Say Think]

That's the opinion or sales job in question

Irrelevant here.

Previous poster summarized the situation poorly. That is all I was correcting.

I have no strong opinion on Dahlen and am not a fan of Burrows in general. He was good for us in the end (this year) but I still am not a big fan.

However it is perfectly sensible and even astute asset management to trade away a valuable asset for something you really need (and we really needed someone like Burrows) when you aren't certain if you will get to use that asset.

That some people think he was not honest when giving that evaluation of our prospects doesn't matter to me. The argument is sensible, that is what matters.

I am no scout and don't pretend to be. Unlike a lot of people on here (not aimed at you SoA)

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Irrelevant here.

Previous poster summarized the situation poorly. That is all I was correcting.

I have no strong opinion on Dahlen and am not a fan of Burrows in general. He was good for us in the end (this year) but I still am not a big fan.

However it is perfectly sensible and even astute asset management to trade away a valuable asset for something you really need (and we really needed someone like Burrows) when you aren't certain if you will get to use that asset.

That some people think he was not honest when giving that evaluation of our prospects doesn't matter to me. The argument is sensible, that is what matters.

I am no scout and don't pretend to be. Unlike a lot of people on here (not aimed at you SoA)

Cool DMST ... no problem.. I guess I choose to be less inclined to believe the company line Dorion spews.. I think his heart is in the right place .. I just don't buy everything he sells.

 

[JD1]

I think we can all agree on one thing: whether you think Dahlen will pan out or not, as a trade chip, he was worth more than what we got. A prospect exceeding expectations and really blossoming in his draft+1 year definitely has good value around the league.

I think that's the big issue with folks. Dorion isn't getting full value from our trade chips (Zibby, Dahlen) .

yes that's the consensus opinion

but here's another widely accepted concept on HF Boards:

Fan bases over value their prospects

anyone think there's even a possibility that's the situation with Dahlen ?

 

[JD1]

Cool DMST ... no problem.. I guess I choose to be less inclined to believe the company line Dorion spews.. I think his heart is in the right place .. I just don't buy everything he sells.

I'm on board with that but they all do it...it's everywhere in pro sports....talk up your picks....your players....your teammates. How many times have you heard a guy refer to a teammate as the best at something? PK in the finals referred to Rinne as the best in the world. Coming off 5 years with Price you think he believes that?

 

[BondraTime]

Ottawa traded up to get Brown right? they drafted him at 11th? Your equating "being in our top 30" with having him pegged as a first rounder. That's different. You think say Matthews and Laine were on our list? Not where we drafted from.

IT may be hard to believe that he was ranked 8th ot 9th but that's where he was. Shouldn't you be thrilled that someone you've followed so closely is that far down? Bodes well for the team doesn't it?

PD did last year's exit interviews. According to PD this is the type of trade the players asked for to give them a chance in the playoffs. I'm happy we have the prospects to acquire talent at the TDL in The tam

The team was looking good. Melnyk did what he said he would when the timing was right and committed more money. PD used the prospect depth and the extra money to acquire some legit bench strength and the team has a fabulous run.

Yet seems like many here want to vilify PD and EM. I find that odd.

What does trading up for Brown have to do with...anything?

The team most certainly count every player in the draft in their rankings, regardless of where they are slated to go. They didn't omit Matthews/Pulj/Laine because they were going top 4. They don't have a "top 30 list of guys we can realistically get", they have their meetings and rank everyone from 1-xxxx. They don't just skip guys because they are ranked too high They have their top 30 (in his words) which includes their top 30 ranked players in the draft, not the top 30 ranked players outside the top 10...

It's not that it's hard to believe, it's pretty much impossible to believe from my viewpoint.

Look, if you're going to take Dorion's words as gospel, I don't know what to tell you, I certainly don't, but it is what it is. The last ~10 years have definitely taught me that he should not be taken seriously with much of what he says about our prospects ("If we hadn't of traded our 2014 1st, Englund is the guy we were targeting anyways" is just one of the more laughable ones).

I don't want to vilify Dorion, at all. I've already said I'm an overall fan of his. I 100% can criticise moves in a vacuum, and this is one that reeks like spoiled eggs. Doesn't mean he's incompetent, but certainly can mean he made a mistake.

Anything Dorion has done seems infallible to you

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I'm on board with that but they all do it...it's everywhere in pro sports....talk up your picks....your players....your teammates. How many times have you heard a guy refer to a teammate as the best at something? PK in the finals referred to Rinne as the best in the world. Coming off 5 years with Price you think he believes that?

We talkin' bad breath , Listerine PK here ? I get what you are saying .... but when GMs and Coaches speak to the media there is more of a plan and a filter than when players speak about their team mates after a big win or before a big game.

Dorion made a trade... he up played what he got ; high five and hugs, and pinch myself, and he down played what he gave ... not that high on our list , ...expendable... like you would expect from any run of the mill used car salesman. If he would have come out and said ,., we hated to give x up because we thought highly of him, that's why we drafted him less than a year ago, and he has done nothing to disappoint us as anyone paying attention would know but that was the price and we made the call it was worth it to get the veteran presence with playoff experience... blah blah... I would have preferred that because to me that's closer to the truth.. you can disagree here but I think it is.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Meh we're fine imo. Between Perron and Chlapik I'm not worried about losing Dahlen. You have to give to get.

The team showed Karlsson that they are going to push when they can, and they ended up being 1 goal away from the finals.

It's hilarious because people pretend like we gave away assets and got nothing in return. We got depth, and that allowed to us to go deep in the playoffs, and push the eventual champs to within 1 goal of elimination in 2OT.

We did something last year, and people are being wilfully blind to that, and to the fact that our GM has put together a great coaching staff, and a team that really gels well together on and off the ice.

I dont think that Dorion gets enough credit for that. And Boucher, who clearly was a part of bringing in those depth players.

A lot of teams can bring in late season acquisitions and it offsets chemistry. The Senators additions gelled perfectly with the team. All you heard players talking about was how much they wanted to win for the other guys in the locker room.

That kind of chemistry, coupled with the skill and depth the Senators have can push a team far in the playoffs. And like u said, they came within one goal of the cup finals.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

yes that's the consensus opinion

but here's another widely accepted concept on HF Boards:

Fan bases over value their prospects

anyone think there's even a possibility that's the situation with Dahlen ?

I don't think us fans have much of a clue when it comes to player value period. Supply and demand dictates value, and we lack the context to understand it fully. What teams want what, how many teams want what, what those teams are willing to give to get whatever at any given time . . it fluctuates.