The MLD 2012 Thread I

[seventieslord]

We were between him and Grosso for this pick. Liked Grosso's offense a little more than Sundstrom's. They're probably pretty damn close to equal.

Oh man, would I have been pissed to miss out on Sundstrom this early. I thought I was waiting appropriately long enough to take him.

Grosso’s OK, prior to you taking him he was 1st on my list if I was going to take a pre-expansion guy. It’s just that I’m not sold on his offense. He has a 98% season in 1942, and from there it’s 47, 44, 34, 34, 33, which downgrades his 1944 and 1945 appropriately (IMO) without removing them entirely. I know that pre-expansion guys have a natural tendency to get lower percentage scores, but 375-290 was too big a gap to explain away by era; I couldn’t justify it.

He has substantiated defensive ability though. Proving which of those two is better defensively would be as effective as pissing up a rope, probably.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

We were between him and Grosso for this pick. Liked Grosso's offense a little more than Sundstrom's. They're probably pretty damn close to equal.

Heh, I just suggested Grosso and Sundstrom as possible third liners to Dreakmur the other day

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Strange that he wasn't a WCHL all star

True, but he did get outscored by Bullet Joe who took one spot and Herb Gardiner who had the other. Maybe Herb was just that good.

Oh man, would I have been pissed to miss out on Sundstrom this early. I thought I was waiting appropriately long enough to take him.

Grosso’s OK, prior to you taking him he was 1st on my list if I was going to take a pre-expansion guy. It’s just that I’m not sold on his offense. He has a 98% season in 1942, and from there it’s 47, 44, 34, 34, 33, which downgrades his 1944 and 1945 appropriately (IMO) without removing them entirely. I know that pre-expansion guys have a natural tendency to get lower percentage scores, but 375-290 was too big a gap to explain away by era; I couldn’t justify it.

He has substantiated defensive ability though. Proving which of those two is better defensively would be as effective as pissing up a rope, probably.

Yeah comparing them defensively would be pretty miserable. Sundstrom's Selke record looks real good, and Grosso's quotes look good

Grosso and Sundstrom also seem to have that one defining run in the playoffs.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The newest MANIAC is a forward who, despite being in the Hall of Fame, we don't really know very much about. When looking around for Paddy Moran, I noticed the same guy keep coming up in the same articles, all-star teams, and all-time teams. Hopefully, I can find even more later.

... anyway, the player is Billy Gilmour

He had to be doing something right to be selected an All Star over Harry Hyland when he scored less than half as many goals.

This quote from the profile probably sheds a lot of light on Gilmour:

Both (Blair Russel) and Gilmour were checking back tirelessly during the last minute of play

Gilmour’s most brilliant play, and perhaps the most brilliant play of the match, was made when the teams were battling for that first goal in the second half. He lost and then recovered on his wing, and, winding in and out through half a dozen players, circled around to the front of the net and let drive with only Hern in front of him. The shot was a foot high and landed in the promenade, or Vics might have made it 4 to 0. The crowd cheered Gilmour again and again as the teams lined up for the face in front of the nets.

It seems like Gilmour might have been a guy who really dominated the pace of a game, through back checking, physical play, and stickhandling. But he wasn't much of a finisher.

It's the best explanation for the huge disconnect between Gilmour's glowing reputation and his unimpressive goal totals.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

True, but he did get outscored by Bullet Joe who took one spot and Herb Gardiner who had the other. Maybe Herb was just that good.

Where did you find your records for the WCHL All Star Teams?

HOH lists 3 1st team ASs and 1 2nd Teamer

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Where did you find your records for the WCHL All Star Teams?

HOH lists 3 1st team ASs and 1 2nd Teamer

Oh wow I missed the 2nd team and somehow the 3rd first. I guess scoring was the key word in my original statement about Moran's year.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Oh wow I missed the 2nd team and somehow the 3rd first. I guess scoring was the key word in my original statement about Moran's year.

The HOH All Star teams look wacky (3 first and 1 2nd Team?) so I was wondering of they weren't quite right. IIRC, they were pieced together somehow

 

[seventieslord]

He had to be doing something right to be selected an All Star over Harry Hyland when he scored less than half as many goals.

This quote from the profile probably sheds a lot of light on Gilmour:

It seems like Gilmour might have been a guy who really dominated the pace of a game, through back checking, physical play, and stickhandling. But he wasn't much of a finisher.

It's the best explanation for the huge disconnect between Gilmour's glowing reputation and his unimpressive goal totals.

It could just be that they wanted to induct the whole team and said “meh, why not Gilmour too?â€

With Gilmour, I’m not even that concerned about his scoring. 36 points in 40 games (excluding university and exhibition) is well behind the stars of the era, but that low rate of scoring isn’t unprecedented for a HHOF either. Hooper had 56 points in 57 games (excluding junior)and Jimmy Gardner had 124 in 184 (same). It’s that he played what amounts to 3-4 seasons worth of games. Even if his skills were what they were, it’s just 40 games worth of him doing that.

I don’t necessarily have a problem with him as “possibly†the next pre-1910 player worthy of selection (although I’d have to do more research to say for sure), it’s with him being in the HHOF, but I don’t think that makes me different from anyone else.

I think I want to ask around SIHR for where they got these all-star teams too. I have always wondered.

Oh wow I missed the 2nd team and somehow the 3rd first. I guess scoring was the key word in my original statement about Moran's year.

I think this got clarified last year, they named a 1st AST €œspare†as well.

 

[Dreakmur]

It could just be that they wanted to induct the whole team and said “meh, why not Gilmour too?â€

It could, but based on how highly though of he was during his career, it doesn't apear that was the case.

With Gilmour, I’m not even that concerned about his scoring. 36 points in 40 games (excluding university and exhibition) is well behind the stars of the era, but that low rate of scoring isn’t unprecedented for a HHOF either. Hooper had 56 points in 57 games (excluding junior)and Jimmy Gardner had 124 in 184 (same). It’s that he played what amounts to 3-4 seasons worth of games. Even if his skills were what they were, it’s just 40 games worth of him doing that.

We're counting games now? Billy Gilmour played 7 full seasons.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It could just be that they wanted to induct the whole team and said “meh, why not Gilmour too?”

This is certainly inconsistent with Lester Patrick naming Gilmour to his "all time" team as of 1927 or Russell Bowie naming Gilmour the second best player he ever played against, after Frank McGee.

Also note that the Dubbie Kerr - Marty Walsh - Billy Gilmour line was the high scoring successor to the McGee line and Kerr didn't get in. Edit: Gilmour scored much less than Kerr or Walsh and seems to have been the "glue guy" of the line.

With Gilmour, I’m not even that concerned about his scoring. 36 points in 40 games (excluding university and exhibition) is well behind the stars of the era, but that low rate of scoring isn’t unprecedented for a HHOF either. Hooper had 56 points in 57 games (excluding junior)and Jimmy Gardner had 124 in 184 (same). It’s that he played what amounts to 3-4 seasons worth of games. Even if his skills were what they were, it’s just 40 games worth of him doing that.

SIHR has him playing from 1903-1909.

I don’t necessarily have a problem with him as “possibly” the next pre-1910 player worthy of selection (although I’d have to do more research to say for sure), it’s with him being in the HHOF, but I don’t think that makes me different from anyone else.

I think I want to ask around SIHR for where they got these all-star teams too. I have always wondered.

I'm pretty sure I've seen those All Star Teams elsewhere too

I think this got clarified last year, they named a 1st AST “spare” as well.

I remember something like that too. So that would make the last "1st Team All Star" worse than the "2nd Team All Star," because he was just a spare?

 

[Dreakmur]

I'm pretty sure I've seen those All Star Teams elsewhere too

1905 was in a newspaper in the bio. 1907 and 1908 were from his LOH bio.

Not sue where they got 1904 and 1909. Of course, 1903 was his best season

 

[Velociraptor]

Sherbrooke selects Nick Libett, LW

6 20+ goal seasons, and a legitimate defensive forward to start the third line

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sherbrooke selects Nick Libett, LW

6 20+ goal seasons, and a legitimate defensive forward to start the third line

Had been reading up on him, definitely on my list, seems like a solid pick from this fledgling observer.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just browsed through the roster threw and damn, this might be the most competitive MLD yet. No obvious bottom feeders and no runaway favorites. Teams that haven't done so are highly encouraged to link bios to their roster thread, as it makes evaluating your team much easier

 

[tarheelhockey]

With our 12th pick, 188th overall, the Winston-Salem Polar Twins select:

Dustin Brown, LW

Brown brings a well-rounded game to the bottom-6. He is a modest but reliable scorer, a relentless physical presence, an agitator and a leader. ​

2009 NHL All-Star Game
2012 Stanley Cup Champion (captain)

I believe this is Brown's first MLD, so he may be seen as a stretch pick by some. However, I believe that he has rightfully entered this tier. See below.

- Checking. Brown has been top-3 in hits every season since the lockout, the only player in the league to do so. If you don't care for the hits stat, the eyeball test confirms he is one of the most effective physical forwards in the game.
- Offensive spark. A 33-goal season (19th) and a top-10 finish in shots, in separate seasons, represents a competent offensive peak for a checking forward.
- Reliable scoring. Of the 23 players who have scored 20 goals each of the past 5 seasons, 20 were already drafted (mostly in the ATD). Of the other 3, Brown has by far the best-rounded game and is most suitable for a defensive role.
- Special teams. Needless to say he will likely be a PK regular. While I would not want him on the PP, his 25 PP goals in 07 and 08 suggest he is a viable injury substitution.
- Agitation. Brown has led the league in penalties drawn in 5 of 7 post-lockout seasons, yet he consistently finishes in the 40-60 PIM range. He will put the Polar Twins on the PP... a lot.
- Dependable. He has only missed 10 of his last 574 games, despite his style.
- Leadership. Only one other Cup captain of the playoff era remains undrafted.
- Playoffs. He led all players in playoff goals, assists AND points in 2012. While Quick had the Smythe locked down, Brown was a viable candidate. Over the past 3 playoffs, Brown is tied for 10th in PPG (>30 GP) which puts him in heady company.

 

[Zombie Mike Murphy]

The IceCaps select:

Very durable - 1522 games played (Counting AHL, where he spent most of the 60s)
212 career NHL points, 465 career AHL points

He played 704 National Hockey League games for the Boston Bruins, Toronto Maple Leafs, Detroit Red Wings, New York Rangers and Pittsburgh Penguins. A fast skating, offensive minded defenseman, he would score many goals and assists during his career, a rarity for a blueliner.
Morrison also played eight seasons with the Quebec Aces and three season with the Baltimore Clippers in the American Hockey League. Morrison won the Eddie Shore Award in 1965–66 as the league's outstanding defenceman.

 

[Dreakmur]

The IceCaps select:

Very durable - 1522 games played (Counting AHL, where he spent most of the 60s)
212 career NHL points, 465 career AHL points

Solid pick. Not only was he named to 7 AHL all-star teams, but he played in 3 NHL all-star games, all of which were earned.

 

[DaveG]

Yarmouth selects LW Sami Kapanen

2 time NHL all star game participant
3 time SM-Liiga all star
1 time World Championships best forward
4 time World Championships medalist (1 gold, 3 silver)
2 time Olympic medalist

458 points (189G, 269A) in 831 career NHL games
262 points (106G, 156A) in 329 career SM-Liiga games
35 points (13G, 22A) in 87 career NHL playoff games
26 points (13G, 13A) in 38 career SM-Liiga playoff games

 

[Michael Farkas]

Medicine Hat selects: Bob Trapp, D

From Selfish Man's profile:

After his prime:

In Chicago Trapp played 44 games and managed 4 goals and 2 assists, good for second on the team in scoring from the defense. He also provided toughness in spades, delivering 92 penalty minutes, just one minute off the team lead. Trapps star dimmed in his second season when he was unable to score and managed just 2 assists and 37 penalty minutes.

In the WHL/WCHL:

-2 x First Team All-Star (1923, 1926)
-Second Team All-Star (1922)

-Points among defensemen – 6th(1922), 4th(1923), 7th(1924), 4th(1925), 1st(1926)

Goals AD – 8th(1922), 8th(1923), 5th(1924), 8th(1925), 6th(1926)
Assists AD – 3rd(1922), 4th(1923), 4th(1924), 2nd(1925), 1st(1926)

Notice that he was a 1st Team All Star in 1923, while only finishing 6th in points and a 2nd Team in 1922, while only finishing 7th. He certainly wasn't getting on the All-Star teams for just his offense. That, plus the quote about his physical play in his 2 seasons in the NHL indicate that he was likely a physical, defensive force in his own zone.

Was traded in a deal for Eddie Shore.

2nd team (WCHL 1922)
Trapp was behind Red Dutton and Joe Simpson for first team honours. Both HHOFers. No info exists as to who was regarded higher between Trapp and 2nd team Traub. In the NHL, Cameron, Cleghorn, Boucher, and Gerard were certainly better. A couple other are debatable. (Reise, XXXXX, for example) Trapp was the 7th-10th-best defenseman in hockey.

1st team (WCHL 1923)
Trapp apparently made the 1st team along with Gardiner and Simpson - both HHOFers. No info exists as to who was regarded higher. In the NHL, Boucher, Cleghorn, Cameron, Gerard, and possibly Reise and Corbeau were better. Trapp was the 5th-9th-best defenseman in hockey.

1st team (WHL 1926)
Trapp made the 1st all-star team along with Eddie Shore. Shore was likely regarded higher. In the NHL, Day, Conacher, Clancy, Boucher, Hitchman, & Cleghorn were likely better. Leduc may have been. Trapp was the 8th-9th-best defenseman in hockey.

For these three seasons, Trapp was somewhere between the 5th and 10th-best defenseman in hockey.

Seventies' analysis from three years ago. Has any new information changed your stance here 70's? (and if it's for the worst, forget the question )

I'd also like to submit:

"Bob Trapp Looks Good" Bob Trapp is going better than ever. [Undrafted Manager] would not be surprised to see him become the star of the series.

Two goals in the final period, the first by Bob Trapp on a fine solo rush...

...chosen from last season's all-star squad: Bob Trapp veteran ex-Reginan, and XXXXX XXXXXX. Tulsa's defense will be as dangerous on the attack as any rear-guard in the league. Burden of upholding Tulsa's high scoring reputation will rest on XXX XXXXXXXX, another all-star team selection.

Bob Trapp, veteran defence star of the Tulsa Club...jumped [his] club for [the Chicago Blackhawks of the NHL]. The American League is considered an "outlaw" circuit by the National.

Bob Trapp, veteran defence star of the American Hockey League and [another player]...jumped their club's after last night's game here and left to join the Chicago Blackhawks of the NHL. It was learned that both players were given substantial increases in salary over what they were receiving in the AHL.

(Game 2 of the Henri Fontaine Cup Finals - Can-Am Championship) Both goals came in the third minute when Bob Trapp, veteran hockey campaigner, jumped from his position to grab the puck and rush up the centre. XXX XXXXXX, veteran winger from Alberta, flanked him on the right and Bob fed a perfect pass to him. Without slackening his speed XXXXXX grabbed the puck and rushed into the goal uncovered.

I'd also like to submit for review to the group (and maybe someone with a SIHR membership can confirm if this info exists, because H-R doesn't have it). I believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Trapp played the February 7, 1933 game between Montreal and Toronto, a 2-0 shutout win for Montreal.

"Work Satisfactory" Trapp came to Montreal on a one-game arrangement, it was announced. Although his work was considered satisfactory in view of his strenuous schedule lately with the Canadian-American League club. It was by previous arrangement that he was sent back. (editor's note: of the loans or picks that XXX XXXXXXXXXX made, only Marty Burke was kept).

"Shakeup Helps Canadiens Win" (with Trapp) Last night the Canadiens showed a new brand of hockey by defeating the Toronto Maple Leafs, 2 to 0.

Additionally, it appears that he started out as a forward (left-winger) very early in his pro career:

Bob Trapp gave XXXXX XXXXX the merriest chase he has had for many a day. The Eskimo left-winger back-checked like a fiend all night, and showed a burst of speed that played havoc with many well-intentioned raids by the opposition.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

...chosen from last season's all-star squad: Bob Trapp veteran ex-Reginan, and XXXXX XXXXXX. Tulsa's defense will be as dangerous on the attack as any rear-guard in the league. Burden of upholding Tulsa's high scoring reputation will rest on XXX XXXXXXXX, another all-star team selection.

A 1930 All Star Team? Do you have a link the full article? Edit: nevermind, it's just the AHA

Double edit: SIHR does have a record of Trapp playing a game for Montreal in 1933. Either the NHL's official stats that H-R uses missed it, or H-R messed up when inputting it. Not that it means much in the grand scheme of things

 

[VanIslander]

The last quote says Trapp played some left wing.

He's one of those guys I'd put on the find-out-more list. I have not known what to think about him overall, and those quotes help a little, though aren't as informative or spectacular as I'd hoped to justify raising my estimation of him.

Interesting...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Also, if Iain Fyffe is correct, Trapp's 1923 "1st Team" was as a spare. But his 1926 appears legit.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Also, if Iain Fyffe is correct, Trapp's 1923 "1st Team" was as a spare. But his 1926 appears legit.

A spare? I can read more about such a designation somewhere?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A spare? I can read more about such a designation somewhere?

Bascially, a player who didn't start the game. Like a "6th man" in the current NBA.

I posted in the appropriate thread in HOH about this; hopefully Iain will see it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

A spare? I can read more about such a designation somewhere?

Prior to the advent of "rolling" lines, hockey teams consisted of 6 starters and a list of spares. Your starters played the whole game unless injured or exhausted. A good spare at each position was helpful. The dynamics were very similar to modern basketball.

That style of play became obsolete when Odie Cleghorn (apocryphally, at least) pioneered the idea of wholesale substitutions in the form of line changes. From what I have seen, it took a little while before 2nd/3rd liners were no longer listed as spares.