The MLD 2012 Thread I

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm curious to hear what you think about Rob Ramage, Roman Hamrlik, Doug Bodger, Adrian Aucoin, Pavel Kubina, Dave Babych, Steve Chiasson, Phil Russell, Jerry Korab, Ed Jovanovski, Dick Redmond and Jyrki Lumme, because McCabe was generally more relied upon by better teams than all of these guys (who were as high as 4th on ATD depth charts), and usually by a legit ATD coach as well. He is also right in the middle of the group offensively, and allowed fewer ES goals per game/minute than all of them except Bodger. What makes him any worse than this group of ATD-canonized players aside from the "ewww, McCabe, he's a recent player I saw make a few giveaways" factor?

Jovanovski was a regular on Team Canada at the highest levels, so hockey people seemed to have though of him much more highly than McCabe.

 

[VanIslander]

I'm curious to hear what you think about Rob Ramage, Roman Hamrlik, Doug Bodger, Adrian Aucoin, Pavel Kubina, Dave Babych, Steve Chiasson, Phil Russell, Jerry Korab, Ed Jovanovski, Dick Redmond and Jyrki Lumme, because McCabe was generally more relied upon by better teams than all of these guys (who were as high as 4th on ATD depth charts),

Only Ramage from that bunch would I dare put in a second pairing in an ATD context,

Did someone really put Hamrlik, Bodger, Aucoin, Kubina, Jovanovski or Lumme in an all-time great top-4 role? They never saw them play much. That's the only explanation.

The MLD 2012 has several better players than those you've mentioned.

Maybe we need to discuss the importance of a top-4 role. (Specialists and clear liabilities need not apply.)

 

[Dwight]

I can't speak for the rest of them, but I drafted Hamrlik as my #8 D-Man...

 

[Dreakmur]

Better teams don't necessarily have better bluelines, and McCabe's Maple Leafs are a good example of that.

 

[VanIslander]

... I drafted Hamrlik as my #8 D-Man...

 

[seventieslord]

Only Ramage would I dare put in a second pairing in an ATD context,

Did someone really put Hamrlik, Bodger, Aucoin, Kubina, Jovanovski or Lumme in a an all;-time great top-4 role? They never saw them play much. That's the only explanation.

The MLD 2012 has several better players than those you've mentioned.

Maybe we need to discuss the importance of a top-4 role. (Specialists and clear liabilities need not apply.)

No, I think Ramage was the only one on a 2nd pairing but all those guys were ATD #4-7 guys. Plus some who were even worse that I didn't mention.

The word "liability" is thrown around and certainly it applies to some players, but if a guy like McCabe was such a liability then it would mean he had a bunch of goals scored against him. Compared to the above group (and, actually, most of the players I compared him to in the final thread of the ATD), he didn't.

I wouldn't play him in an ATD top-4 either but I wouldn't hesitate to have him on a 3rd pairing. This is the MLD though; the pecking order is reset. In this draft he is a clear #1; his accomplishments dwarf most others selected.

 

[seventieslord]

and who said Doughty was in a top-3 role? He was my 4th defenseman selected.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I can't speak for the rest of them, but I drafted Hamrlik as my #8 D-Man...

Not that #8s matter much (as long as they are not Aki Berg quality), but I would rather have Hamrlik as a spare in the main draft than McCabe. I would trust him more to come off the bench and not screw up.

I'd rather have McCabe as my #1 in the MLD than Hamrlik because I think he was more of an impact player

 

[seventieslord]

Scott Gomez should be flanked by two larger wingers, at least one of whom is physical, and who both prefer to shoot rather than pass. Puck carrying is optional, since Gomez is elite in that area. So, I select a big, tough and belligerent winger:

Scott Mellanby, RW

Mellanby is just an "OK" offensive player at this level, but as a 2nd line glue guy he will be fine. He can focus on doing his thing, agitating and terrorizing the opposition, creating space for his smaller and less physical teammates, leading by example and chipping in the odd opportunistic goal.

 

[seventieslord]

Not that #8s matter much (as long as they are not Aki Berg quality), but I would rather have Hamrlik as a spare in the main draft than McCabe. I would trust him more to come off the bench and not screw up.

I'd rather have McCabe as my #1 in the MLD than Hamrlik because I think he was more of an impact player

You know Hamrlik was often considered very mistake prone too, right?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You know Hamrlik was often considered very mistake prone too, right?

For the first half of his career.

 

[seventieslord]

For the first half of his career.

FWIW, in their respective primes, he was scored on 17% more, on a "per even strength minute" basis.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

FWIW, in their respective primes, he was scored on 17% more, on a "per even strength minute" basis.

What were their respective quality of competition?

 

[seventieslord]

I'm going to start my 3rd line with a guy I have always been a big fan of.

- He had good size and though he was not intimidating, he was strong, physical, courageous and competitive
- He was a strong defensive player who finished 10th and 14th in Selke voting (not with that many votes, mind you...)
- Scouting reports rave about his overall game, how much he wants to win, how he was deceptively tough (can't wait to do his bio)
- He played both LW and C about equally (and some RW)
- I have him currently 7th in percentage scores for avaiable post-expansion wingers (best 6 seasons), not too bad for a guy who was responsible when all other comparable offensive players were one-dimensional
- He was the runaway 2nd place vote-getter in last year's MLD for bottom 6 forwards (well behind 1st place Erixon and well ahead of 3rd)

Patrik Sundstrom, C/LW

I see Sundstrom as not too far behind in the 80s generation of "tough" two-way European forwards who started to break the Chicken Swede stereotype. He's like a poor man's Thomas Steen or Bengt Gustafsson. Note that he has almost the exact same career NHL stats as Tomas Gradin, plus a much better substantiated physical and defensive game (not quite as good a playoff scoring record, though)

 

[seventieslord]

What were their respective quality of competition?

Can't vouch for Hamrlik, but in McCabe's prime he usually went up against the opposition's best. Scouting reports from the 90s also confirm this was even the case before he peaked.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Pairing

I'm curious to hear what you think about Rob Ramage, Roman Hamrlik, Doug Bodger, Adrian Aucoin, Pavel Kubina, Dave Babych, Steve Chiasson, Phil Russell, Jerry Korab, Ed Jovanovski, Dick Redmond and Jyrki Lumme, because McCabe was generally more relied upon by better teams than all of these guys (who were as high as 4th on ATD depth charts), and usually by a legit ATD coach as well. He is also right in the middle of the group offensively, and allowed fewer ES goals per game/minute than all of them except Bodger - despite being the guy who faced the opposition's top players, which can't be said for every single player above. What makes him any worse than this group of ATD-canonized players aside from the "ewww, McCabe, he's a recent player I saw make a few giveaways" factor?

Comes down to the pairing. Has McCabe ever been part of an "ideal" pairing?

As for the group above can you make a solid pairing from two of them? Doubtful so you have to fit each one to a better defenseman. Example Hamrlik to Dion Phaneuf worked well.

 

[seventieslord]

Comes down to the pairing. Has McCabe ever been part of an "ideal" pairing?

A lot of people might have said he and Kaberle were "ideal" for a while, as imperfect as they were.

As for the group above can you make a solid pairing from two of them? Doubtful so you have to fit each one to a better defenseman. Example Hamrlik to Dion Phaneuf worked well.

Late career, more responsible Hamrlik, it should be said.

 

[Hobnobs]

Winnipeg Monarchs selects the underrated rushing defenseman, Amby Moran, D

Amby Moran, stocky defenceman of the Maroons, got in some of his Firpo-like rushes. Boston got an extra two minutes on his penalty for a display of temper.

[Moran] instigated an individual rush straight up the centre of the ice, and when just beyond the defense, let go a rifle shot that whizzed past Talbot a mile a minute. It was a wonderful end to a wonderful game. Moran's drive was the fastest of the night, and the twine sagged before its momentum.

Amby "Moose" Moran was a Winnipeg boy, beginning his senior career there in 1919/20. The origin of his nickname was presumably his frame; he was a 6-foot, 200-pounder at a time when such things were pretty rare. He was a big boy, certainly, and a rambunctious one, even being arrested once in 1923 for assaulting a police officer.

He was, however, a very good hockey player for a number of years. He turned pro in 1921 with Regina of the new WCHL. He faded fast in his thirties, though, so by the time the NHL absorbed the western league, Moran wasn't the player he once was. But in his prime, he was a force to be reckoned with.

In the January 12, 1923 edition of the Regina Morning Leader, Moran was compared to future Hall of Famer Herb Gardiner in a discussion of who was the best left defenceman in the WCHL at the time. We know that Gardiner was effective offensively and outstanding on defence. He was awarded the 1927 Hart Trophy as NHL MVP, in the first season after the eastern league absorbed the western one. Here's what the Leader had to say about them:

...[W]hen the relative virtues of the two players were compared, we came to the conclusion that the Calgary playing manager [Gardiner] earned the call because of his superior polish.
Defensively, Gardiner has a slight edge on Moran. He is faster on the check and knows the breaking-up art from A to Z. On the attack he is also a valuable asset to his team, although not a prolific goal getter.
Moran's value to the attack lies more in his ability to score one goal regularly every game, rather than in his ability to help out the forwards. Amby undoubtedly packs a much more wicked shot than the Bengal captain, is a more dangerous man to rush; but it is seldom that he steadies down the forwards as Gardiner does; he rather attempts to do everything on his won. And while he acquires a certain amount of glory for his unquestionably spectacular rushing, his offensive play is colorful rather than effective.

I think we can discount the comment that Gardiner has a "slight edge" on defence to a degree of homerism. Moran was a starting blueliner for Regina at the time, and he was probably getting a home-team boost here. That being said, Moran was certainly not a liability on defence in his WCHL years. But ultimately, he was known as a big, rough, rambunctious rusher with a wicked shot.

 

[tony d]

Chicago selects centre Kelly Kisio with their 12th pick 185th overall in the 2012 MLD.

Some stats on Kisio:

- 658 points in 761 games
- 6 40 Assist Seasons
- 59th All Time in Career Shooting Percentage.

Kisio reads as a do everything player, you name it, chances are he can do it. Pleased to have him on my 3rd line.

I've pmed next.

 

[seventieslord]

Chicago selects centre Kelly Kisio with their 12th pick 185th overall in the 2012 MLD.

Some stats on Kisio:

- 658 points in 761 games
- 6 40 Assist Seasons
- 59th All Time in Career Shooting Percentage.

Kisio reads as a do everything player, you name it, chances are he can do it. Pleased to have him on my 3rd line.

I've pmed next.

Good leader too. He could be an MLD captain.

Lack of Selke votes turned me off a bit, because it's nice to have that "backup" for defensive ability, but I definitely head him close to the top of my list. may have chosen him for a 4th line.

 

[Dreakmur]

The newest MANIAC is a forward who, despite being in the Hall of Fame, we don't really know very much about. When looking around for Paddy Moran, I noticed the same guy keep coming up in the same articles, all-star teams, and all-time teams. Hopefully, I can find even more later.

... anyway, the player is Billy Gilmour

 

[Michael Farkas]

If anyone is looking to trade down and get a little more time to think, I would be interested in sliding up here...I have a guy that I'm dead set on right now...

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Winnipeg Monarchs selects the underrated rushing defenseman, Amby Moran, D

First A-level draftee?

Amby didn't produce a ton in the NHL (offensively at least), but his 1923 WCHL season has to be one of the better ones for scoring defensemen.

My summary

Amby finished second in defensemen scoring with 15-8-23 in the WCHL's 1923 season. That puts him behind only Bullet Joe Simpson's 15-14-29 line the same year. (Bullet Joe's career year according to hockeydb)

This was his only top 5 season and the next year he was limited to just six games. The '25 season didn't start well either and after 6 pointless games he was moved to Regina which seemed to be a boon for him finishing the year with 10 goals and 1 assist in 15 games for the Maroons.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

First A-level draftee?

Amby didn't produce a ton in the NHL (offensively at least), but his 1923 WCHL season has to be one of the better ones for scoring defensemen.

My summary

Strange that he wasn't a WCHL all star

 

[vecens24]

Connecticut selects RW Rich Preston

Just wrote him down last night as a guy I would have loved to have on a 4th line. Good pick.

I'm going to start my 3rd line with a guy I have always been a big fan of.

- He had good size and though he was not intimidating, he was strong, physical, courageous and competitive
- He was a strong defensive player who finished 10th and 14th in Selke voting (not with that many votes, mind you...)
- Scouting reports rave about his overall game, how much he wants to win, how he was deceptively tough (can't wait to do his bio)
- He played both LW and C about equally (and some RW)
- I have him currently 7th in percentage scores for avaiable post-expansion wingers (best 6 seasons), not too bad for a guy who was responsible when all other comparable offensive players were one-dimensional
- He was the runaway 2nd place vote-getter in last year's MLD for bottom 6 forwards (well behind 1st place Erixon and well ahead of 3rd)

Patrik Sundstrom, C/LW

I see Sundstrom as not too far behind in the 80s generation of "tough" two-way European forwards who started to break the Chicken Swede stereotype. He's like a poor man's Thomas Steen or Bengt Gustafsson. Note that he has almost the exact same career NHL stats as Tomas Gradin, plus a much better substantiated physical and defensive game (not quite as good a playoff scoring record, though)

We were between him and Grosso for this pick. Liked Grosso's offense a little more than Sundstrom's. They're probably pretty damn close to equal.

Winnipeg Monarchs selects the underrated rushing defenseman, Amby Moran, D

Remembered that Iain Fyffe did a little write up on him on the Historysis site. Seemed to be very well respected out west, and totally useless once he got to the NHL.

Chicago selects centre Kelly Kisio with their 12th pick 185th overall in the 2012 MLD.

Some stats on Kisio:

- 658 points in 761 games
- 6 40 Assist Seasons
- 59th All Time in Career Shooting Percentage.

Kisio reads as a do everything player, you name it, chances are he can do it. Pleased to have him on my 3rd line.

I've pmed next.

Definitely a guy that should have been on my radar at least and wasn't. Might not have taken him now, but he's definitely very useful on both a third and fourth line.

Ugh... I am not a fan of taking players I'm not a fan of, or one-dimensional players. But there is no denying his sniping ability, and unlike most available players, he was actually a catalyst and not a complementary player. A winger, he has the most impressive percentage scores among all remaining players (417, counting his best 6 seasons) which is rare because at any given time, the player who fits that description is almost always a center.

He has 6 seasons of 29+ goals, all between the years of 1999 and 2006. He has led an NHL team in scoring six times, by margins of 1, 10, 11, 16, 25 and an incredible 29 points. He has consistently got the job done offensively with little help from linemates, so it will be interesting to see what he can do with Scott Gomez as his center.

I am, of course, talking about Miroslav Satan, W

Miro is a pretty good fit with Gomez. He definitely got a bad reputation wiht the Sabres as being the skilled guy on a team of grinders, so his warts stuck out more as I think it was TDMM said. He was defintiely willing to grind and plug away in the bottom 6 for the Bruins in 2010. He wasn't happy about being demoted by the Pens in '09 either, but when they called him back him he went about his business in the bottom 6 too. He doesn't necessarily hit and he has far from the best intangibles but I don't see him as a liability in that regard either.

The Montreal Orfuns adopt LW Danny Grant - Montreal, Minnesota, Detroit.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/g/grantda01.html

Grant's a guy we looked into when we took Keeling. Great for front of the net on the PP, came away a little unimpressed with everything else.