The ending Matt Duchene thread (Duchene traded to Ottawa)

[KJ Dangler]

If you're not solving your problem why make the trade? We'd be helping one problem and possibly opening up another.

Solving the problem ? We have Foligno moving over to play center because we are so thin , yet people are trying to argue we need to keep Ryan Murray as a 5th defenseman to play minimal minutes , and the arguement is , what if an injury occurs . Good teams are strong defensively , and strong down the middle . We are far from strong down the middle . And it’s not remotely close . 5th and 6th defenseman are easy to acquire . A first line center that can win 2/3 of his faceoffs , and score 30 goals in a season , is not .

 

[Columbus Jack]

Yea young mobile d-men are worth a ton and to me Murray has dissappointed so far in his career. This could be the year we truly know what he is and there would be no debate. Personally I keep Murray + but that is mostly because I think defense is what made this team good last year.

 

[NotWendell]

If you're not solving your problem why make the trade? We'd be helping one problem and possibly opening up another.

We have far more good prospects on defense than we do at center.

 

[JohnnyJacket13]

Defense is a major strength for our organization. I wouldn't be upset if Carlsson is the one moved instead of Murray. Not sure what else we'd have to send to COL, but I'd assume Jenner.

Say we let JJ walk this next offseason and we moved one of our defensemen for Duchene...which top-4 would you really feel better? Which is more established and less of an unkown?

Z-Jones / Carlsson-Savard ... or Murray-Jones / Werenski-Savard

I'd prefer the latter...

Taking a look at our projected lines, I'm still not that comfortable with what we're rolling out at forward. Adding Duchene instantly vaults us into contention to win our division in the regular season, making the road to the ECF more favorable.

Panarin-Wennberg-Atkinson
Foligno-Duchene-Bjorkstrand
Dubois-Dubinsky-Milano
Calvert-Sedlak-Anderson

Werenski-Jones
Johnson-Savard
Murray-Nutivaara

Bob

 

[blahblah]

Meh, I'm not sold that Duchene vaults us anywhere. It's probably moot until the trade deadline now.

 

[Maylo]

Duchene is a #1 center, that's been stuck on an abysmal team.

Arr no, he's not. This reminds me of the girl who looks at the guy she likes, and how he cheats/beats on his girlfriend, and she thinks: "It's just because she's bad and not worth him, he will never do this to me if we were together."
Yet we all hope that Duchene is our LA version Carter.

 

[CBJx614]

Solving the problem ? We have Foligno moving over to play center because we are so thin , yet people are trying to argue we need to keep Ryan Murray as a 5th defenseman to play minimal minutes , and the arguement is , what if an injury occurs . Good teams are strong defensively , and strong down the middle . We are far from strong down the middle . And it’s not remotely close . 5th and 6th defenseman are easy to acquire . A first line center that can win 2/3 of his faceoffs , and score 30 goals in a season , is not .

18 minutes/night isn't minimal. If he's eating PK and DZ starts and allowing Werenski and Jones easier minutes it's well worth it because they can feast on lesser opponents. Werenski should be better this season, but his offense dried up when he started getting pk minutes.

I guess it really depends on Jenner, if they think he's going to be gone awhile and they don't have faith in Dalpe or anyone else they could make a move.

But seriously our wings are good enough for Foligno to move to center and our depth on wings will be fine.

I really think we have the depth to weather these injuries early on.

We have far more good prospects on defense than we do at center.

I can't say I agree.

PLD will continually be tested at center

Thurkauf, Vigneault and Stenlund will be competing for a center job next season.

And we have about 5 guys in the system listed as C/W not on our roster, not to mention the 4 guys on our roster who can play wing or center.

As far as D in the system ahead of those guys, I only put Carlsson and Gavrikov ahead of them. And Gavrikov is at least 2 seasons away.

Behind those two we really only have Harrington, Peeke and Collins.

 

[Dr. Fire]

I thought Murray had a very good camp. And he is third pair because of a very very good top four. In my book it says something about our D when Murray is pushed to the third pair. He gets traded, we deal with it, but I for one am not going to be upset with him here.

 

[Jackets16]

Defense is a major strength for our organization. I wouldn't be upset if Carlsson is the one moved instead of Murray. Not sure what else we'd have to send to COL, but I'd assume Jenner.

Say we let JJ walk this next offseason and we moved one of our defensemen for Duchene...which top-4 would you really feel better? Which is more established and less of an unkown?

Z-Jones / Carlsson-Savard ... or Murray-Jones / Werenski-Savard

I'd prefer the latter...

Taking a look at our projected lines, I'm still not that comfortable with what we're rolling out at forward. Adding Duchene instantly vaults us into contention to win our division in the regular season, making the road to the ECF more favorable.

Panarin-Wennberg-Atkinson
Foligno-Duchene-Bjorkstrand
Dubois-Dubinsky-Milano
Calvert-Sedlak-Anderson

Werenski-Jones
Johnson-Savard
Murray-Nutivaara

Bob

I'd be upset if either were traded for Duchene, but is be really upset if Carlsson was the one traded.

 

[Jackets16]

18 minutes/night isn't minimal. If he's eating PK and DZ starts and allowing Werenski and Jones easier minutes it's well worth it because they can feast on lesser opponents. Werenski should be better this season, but his offense dried up when he started getting pk minutes.

That is the point far too many are ignoring.

 

[CBJx614]

That is the point far too many are ignoring.

Like it's not that Werenski is bad on D, it's just that he's not ready to log huge minutes on both sides of the ice yet. I expect him to be better prepared this season though.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

This entire recent discussion frames the issue as if it's merely Murray for Duchene.

 

[CBJx614]

This entire recent discussion frames the issue as if it's merely Murray for Duchene.

I don't want to trade Murray or Carlsson for Duchene right now, let alone adding someone like Milano or a 1st in supposedly good draft.

 

[Old Guy]

I know this is a Matt Duchene thread......however.....

{Quote system seem clunky for an Old Guy}. I disagree with LeeSmith and agree with Wubba. Defensive depth seems thinner than center. I see PLD in the middle eventually, plus, Dubi, Wenny, Sedlak, Tharkauf, Stenlund, Texier, and Vigneault, so that the current roster and 4 future guys. This discounts how long and how well Figlino plays the position and any possible acquisition (Duchene-Tavares, other).

Defensive depth past the current roster (which includes Harrington and not Nutivaara for discussion purposes) would include Nutivaara, Peeke, Gavrikov, Collins, and Somerby. I think Jack Johnson is playing his last season in Columbus. Would not be surprised if he left at the trade deadline, but would doubt that happening. I just don't see the CBJ spending the money he would want on his final significant contract. I think somebody takes Johnson's spot next year. If there is a trade for a center, a defenseman gets moved.

In two years, I think center will be much deeper than defense.

 

[Forepar]

I think there is some severe under valuing of what Duchene is as a player. First of all, a 5th of 6th defenseman is easy to get if need be. Personally, I think we are fine with Harrington, Nuti, & Carlsson. But if Jarmo is worried out our depth, we have plenty of assets to acquire defensive depth, and that's a lot easier to get , than a #1 center. Also, Murray , statistically from what I recall, was one of our worst defenseman. So if we lose him, I'm sure we will manage . We were a top 5 defensive team last year, and that is why we have a goalie that we pay 7.5 mill per season. But if we go into this season expecting Wennberg, to be playing a line higher than he should be, Dubinsky as a #2 center is a line too high, and Foligno as a #3 center, and that lineup is going to beat Pittsburgh in the playoffs ? With Pld looking to be a natural winger, its imperative that we get a center. That brings me back to Duchene.

Duchene is a #1 center, that's been stuck on an abysmal team. Anyone who thinks a player can keep his motivation up in a hopeless situation, should consider all the past jackets that struggled here, when we had the clubhouse environment, that went on to be much better once they were traded. Duchene , first of all, wins nearly 2/3 of his faceoffs. The current best on the jackets is Dubinsky at 50% (Pretty sure Wennberg is around 47%). Duchene has scored 30 goals in a season, 27 goals in a season, and hit the 70 point mark . As a matter of fact, the 3 years Colorado was actually decent, he had seasons of (23g 47 ass - 70 points) (21g 34 ass 55 pts) and (30g 29 Ass 59 pts). Personally, I think he comes to the cbj, and is consistently near a 65- 70 point player per season. He has elite speed, which will help this team tremendously, and he can beat players one on one with his agility and speed , which is something that is sorely needed on this team. Panarin was a good start, but in the playoffs, where the game gets bogged down, you need great offensive players to complement a good defense, and goalie.

Here is an idea of what he would bring to the jackets......

"Duchene is a #1 center,"

The bolded and underlined clause is the point of contention. You think he's a #1 (as do others), I think he's a #2 (as do others).
If he's a #2, then Duchenne is not the long-term fix. I wouldn't give up the assets being discussed (Murray/Carlsson + Milano/Bjorkstand/Anderson + pick) for 2 years of a #2 center.

If he's a legitimate stud #1C, then maybe.

The added angst for me is last year's nose dive by Duchene (explainable or not). When chips are down, that's when your best players drag others into the fray, not coast. I know that doesn't jive with others views...I'd sign Duchenne as a UFA, but not at the expense of other assets.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

"Duchene is a #1 center,"

The bolded and underlined clause is the point of contention. You think he's a #1 (as do others), I think he's a #2 (as do others).
If he's a #2, then Duchenne is not the long-term fix. I wouldn't give up the assets being discussed (Murray/Carlsson + Milano/Bjorkstand/Anderson + pick) for 2 years of a #2 center.

If he's a legitimate stud #1C, then maybe.

The added angst for me is last year's nose dive by Duchene (explainable or not). When chips are down, that's when your best players drag others into the fray, not coast. I know that doesn't jive with others views...I'd sign Duchenne as a UFA, but not at the expense of other assets.

The appeal of Duchene to me is that he's a legit 1A/B with Wennberg. I do not think he can be acquired though at that value, which is why I'd shy away. I have advocated adding instead a 2A/B to Dubinsky, depending on the player, and presuming the player could be acquired with a draft pick or two. (Which is not to say that's likely, either, but...)

 

[KJ Dangler]

Just curious what the metrics are to be classified as a number 1 center ? Last year going into the season , Duchene was rated as the 16th best center. Is it simply point totals ? Because being on a bad team certainly influences that . Face off percentages ? Just curious where people get this mythical #1 center . Yes Wennberg played on a great line last year , and put up some assists. Yet he hasn’t remotely had the personal success / stats of Duchene , and until he shoots the puck, won’t be the better player . Duchene is faster , way better at faceoffs , worlds better goal scorer . Duchene has put up 70 points in a season , Wennberg 59, is his high. Duchene has scored 30 goals in a season , wennbergs high is 13. I know our board , like most , over value their players , but cmon , let’s be realistic .


https://www.google.com/amp/amp.time...kings-sidney-crosby-jonathan-toews?source=dam

 

[CBJx614]

Just curious what the metrics are to be classified as a number 1 center ? Last year going into the season , Duchene was rated as the 16th best center. Is it simply point totals ? Because being on a bad team certainly influences that . Face off percentages ? Just curious where people get this mythical #1 center . Yes Wennberg played on a great line last year , and put up some assists. Yet he hasn’t remotely had the personal success / stats of Duchene , and until he shoots the puck, won’t be the better player . Duchene is faster , way better at faceoffs , worlds better goal scorer . Duchene has put up 70 points in a season , Wennberg 59, is his high. Duchene has scored 30 goals in a season , wennbergs high is 13. I know our board , like most , over value their players , but cmon , let’s be realistic .


https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/si/nhl/photo/2016/08/15/nhl-best-centers-rankings-sidney-crosby-jonathan-toews?source=dam

Duchene didn't hit 70 until his fourth year in Colorado. Wennberg could hit that with two scorers on his wings.

We know Duchenes ceiling, we don't know Wennbergs.

 

[thebus88]

The question isn't if Duchene is or will be a better player than Wennberg. Or Murray. With Murray its debating how much better the offense would be, and how much worse the D would be. We're not gonna be paying 2 forwards 7.5-8 million each per year in 2 years. Panarin was brought in for a reason and filled a much bigger need. How about we see what the team looks like with him for a bit.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Duchene didn't hit 70 until his fourth year in Colorado. Wennberg could hit that with two scorers on his wings.

We know Duchenes ceiling, we don't know Wennbergs.

Duchene had 24g 31 assist his rookie year for 55 points, and 27g and 40 assist his second year for 67 points, when you look at his stats, when Colorado was actually decent, he put up pretty good numbers. At 26 years old, I don't think we have seen his ceiling. Put him between Atkinson, and Panarin, and watch out.

 

[Privet]

I think we should be in the running for James Neal before trade deadline. Give Vegas a 2nd round pick for him and go into the playoffs with more scoring power.

 

[CBJx614]

Duchene had 24g 31 assist his rookie year for 55 points, and 27g and 40 assist his second year for 67 points, when you look at his stats, when Colorado was actually decent, he put up pretty good numbers. At 26 years old, I don't think we have seen his ceiling. Put him between Atkinson, and Panarin, and watch out.

Do you think Johansen is better than Duchene? He didn't hit 60 until his 3rd season and I'd wager most would take him over Duchene.

Some people are late bloomers, some people take time to adjust to the NHL. In Wennbergs case he has to completely change his game to play on a smaller ice. Duchene is older and more expensive.

I still think Wennberg is a better fit on a line with two goal scorers. Wennberg has improved in every statistical category every year. Literally every signs point to continued growth. Duchene MIGHT have a little more room, but we know what Duchene is capable of. We don't need more goal scorers. We have plenty.

 

[hardkorejackets]

We sure have a lot of assumptions on here on what it should take to get the Duchene deal done... Personally, I have a feeling there's a reason we can't agree on a trade with Colorado. Colorado wants more for Duchene than ANY team in the NHL are willing to give up at this point.

Not quite sure Murray/Anderson, Murray/Jenner is getting the deal done..

 

[MAHJ71]

The question isn't if Duchene is or will be a better player than Wennberg. Or Murray. With Murray its debating how much better the offense would be, and how much worse the D would be. We're not gonna be paying 2 forwards 7.5-8 million each per year in 2 years. Panarin was brought in for a reason and filled a much bigger need. How about we see what the team looks like with him for a bit.

So you think we'll only keep 1 of Cam/Panarin and let the other walk? I think they both make $7 million+ on their next deals if they continue at their respective paces....

 

[thebus88]

Good point on Atkinson. I'd rather re-sign him (and keep Foligno/Dubi) than bring in Duchene. I think Panarin definitely gets 8 mil a year give or take a bit. I'm not sure Atkinson or Duchene get over 7 mil a year.