The ending Matt Duchene thread (Duchene traded to Ottawa)

[MoeBartoli]

And really, do we even have a weakness at center, at all? Was Karlsson that important? How and why were we so good last year with a weakness at center and a redundant 3/4/5 D man? It wasn't all Werenski and Karlsson.

"Was Karlsson that important?" No, as I thought C was a weakness last year, too. I actually think we will be better at C with Foligno, but his move makes us weaker at Wing. (....though I might miss Wild Bill on PK).

 

[thebus88]

Disagree wholeheartedly on his skating. Acceleration and agility are huge issues.

Many players in the past modeled their game like a Dalton Prout. Or you can say he modeled his game on those players from the past. What is the main/sole reason you think Dalton Prout made and continues to maintain a contract in the NHL?

 

[Hello Johnny]

Disagree wholeheartedly on his skating. Acceleration and agility are huge issues.

Many players in the past modeled their game like a Dalton Prout. Or you can say he modeled his game on those players from the past. What is the main/sole reason you think Dalton Prout made and continues to maintain a contract in the NHL?

The game has been moving away from players like Dalton Prout for years.

To answer your question, everyone and their mother knew that Prout extension was a mistake. Ray Shero was dumb enough to take the guy. I'd be shocked if he isn't anything more than PTO fodder once this season is over.

 

[18136]

How did the team play without Murray last year? I seem to remember people saying the numbers/record were not good.

This. Once Murray was injured it seemed like the team had much more difficulty getting the first pass out of the defensive zone. They just looked like a different team after that.

 

[db2011]

Probably lose quite a few more games than last year. Quite frankly I don't see how anybody can think Carlsson is ready for "top 4" minutes. His skating, among other things, needs work at this point. The dude needs to model his game more like Prout and less like Jones, at the NHL level, IMO. I liked what I saw from Nutivaara most of the year last year. Was not as impressed at all with Carlsson, either in the handful in the playoffs or the single preseason game. A defense without Murray and Savard would not be "good" at all, IMO.



We lose Murray the defense gets worse, period. How much so is for debate. However, Carlsson and Nutivaara are not on his level currently. There's also a good chance that the defense will not be as "healthy" as they were as a whole last year. 1 d man being out at any given time is pretty common. Losing Murray, then getting 1 important (top 4) injury, let alone 2, would be a disaster for the D. Think if a Jones or Savard go down. Its crazy that you guys can forget about all the YEARS with a below average or bad D, after 1 good year with a good D. And ignore the correlation.

How did the team play without Murray last year? I seem to remember people saying the numbers/record were not good.

And really, do we even have a weakness at center, at all? Was Karlsson that important? How and why were we so good last year with a weakness at center and a redundant 3/4/5 D man? It wasn't all Werenski and Karlsson.

Happy to see you back again. And you are making a very strong case. I always appreciate a strong defense, and give it more credit, in general, than a team that has a high-octane offense but only an average defense. I also remember the team seeming to struggle when Murray was out.

Where I get tripped up though is your last paragraph. No, Karlsson wasn't really that important, and that's the thing. For as competitive as the Jackets were for much of the season, they didn't do much in their playoff series. I know, the Pens won the Cup, and I know, a lot of numbers show the Jackets outplaying or at least matching the Pens in that series. And I know, Bob shit the bed.

Do you think those contingencies I just stated are the difference? Do you think the addition of Panarin is the difference? I'm mostly on your side and see sacrificing Murray for Duchene as very questionable, but to be a real contender I think we do need elite skill in the top 3 lines.

 

[NotWendell]

To make the Stanley Cup Final, we must go through Pittsburgh. What key advantage does Pittsburgh have over us? 1.) game-changing playmakers - we took a step toward minimizing their advantage with Panarin; and 2.) strength down the middle (the center position) - this gulf still remains.

 

[Xoggz22]

Probably lose quite a few more games than last year. Quite frankly I don't see how anybody can think Carlsson is ready for "top 4" minutes. His skating, among other things, needs work at this point. The dude needs to model his game more like Prout and less like Jones, at the NHL level, IMO. I liked what I saw from Nutivaara most of the year last year. Was not as impressed at all with Carlsson, either in the handful in the playoffs or the single preseason game. A defense without Murray and Savard would not be "good" at all, IMO.

what are you talking about? Carlsson is a very good skater and we absolutely do NOT need him to play more like Prout. That's the worst thing I've read in some time.

 

[thebus88]

Do you think those contingencies I just stated are the difference? Do you think the addition of Panarin is the difference? I'm mostly on your side and see sacrificing Murray for Duchene as very questionable, but to be a real contender I think we do need elite skill in the top 3 lines.

Short answer is yes, and yes.

Bob was absolutely brutal most of the games/playoffs. His inconsistency is a huge problem. He literally looks like a completely different goalie some nights, or even period by period. The Panarin acquisition is huge. I think the impact he will have on the offense will be amazing. Before Panarin, I'd have considered the options (forward heavy package) for Duchene. Now, I think he is completely unneeded. I think, especially now with Panarin, that we have "elite" skill in the "top 9". You spread out Panarin and Atkinson, who are both legitimate "elite" goalscorers. 1 adds a huge speed element, while the other is simply a top 10-15 overall offensive player in the world. Give 1 of them Wennberg, who is an "elite" skater and set up guy. Give the other Foligno, who I think is still underrated by many when it comes to his puck handling and passing/"playmaking". I'll prolly lose some here, but I would even consider Dubinsky "elite". He is an "elite" jack-of-all-trades player. His faceoff ability and defensive work is some of the best in the league. While not on the level of Foligno, I also think his offensive ability (vision, stickhandling, shooting, passing) is also underrated. That leaves 4 spots with the obvious guy Bjorkstrand, and our recent 3rd overall pick, who I think is just now starting to get the "attention" he deserves.

And to add, what player played during most of the success last year, while NOT playing in the playoffs, when we "failed"?

To make the Stanley Cup Final, we must go through Pittsburgh. What key advantage does Pittsburgh have over us? 1.) game-changing playmakers - we took a step toward minimizing their advantage with Panarin; and 2.) strength down the middle (the center position) - this gulf still remains.

Match up player by player (top 6) between Pissburgh and Columbus.

After Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, and Guentzel where are these "game changers"? What key advantage do we have over Pissburgh? A "game changing", mobile defense, all throughout the top 6.

We're never gonna have someone "as good" as Crosby or Malkin. So how could we ever have the "advantage" at the center position, or in your mind, in the "game changing playmakers" department?

 

[CBJx614]

Short answer is yes, and yes.

Bob was absolutely brutal most of the games/playoffs. His inconsistency is a huge problem. He literally looks like a completely different goalie some nights, or even period by period. The Panarin acquisition is huge. I think the impact he will have on the offense will be amazing. Before Panarin, I'd have considered the options (forward heavy package) for Duchene. Now, I think he is completely unneeded. I think, especially now with Panarin, that we have "elite" skill in the "top 9". You spread out Panarin and Atkinson, who are both legitimate "elite" goalscorers. 1 adds a huge speed element, while the other is simply a top 10-15 overall offensive player in the world. Give 1 of them Wennberg, who is an "elite" skater and set up guy. Give the other Foligno, who I think is still underrated by many when it comes to his puck handling and passing/"playmaking". I'll prolly lose some here, but I would even consider Dubinsky "elite". He is an "elite" jack-of-all-trades player. His faceoff ability and defensive work is some of the best in the league. While not on the level of Foligno, I also think his offensive ability (vision, stickhandling, shooting, passing) is also underrated. That leaves 4 spots with the obvious guy Bjorkstrand, and our recent 3rd overall pick, who I think is just now starting to get the "attention" he deserves.

And to add, what player played during most of the success last year, while NOT playing in the playoffs, when we "failed"?



Match up player by player (top 6) between Pissburgh and Columbus.

After Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, and Guentzel where are these "game changers"? What key advantage do we have over Pissburgh? A "game changing", mobile defense, all throughout the top 6.

We're never gonna have someone "as good" as Crosby or Malkin. So how could we ever have the "advantage" at the center position, or in your mind, in the "game changing playmakers" department?

I don't know that Dubinsky is elite, but he's a pesky gritty guy with a motor that doesn't stop.

And as far as our advantage at center, it's gotta be our depth. We have 4 30G scorers on our wings and I think Wennberg could hit 65-70+ this season. Wennberg nor Dubinsky (nor Duchene) will be able to shut down Crosby or Malkin. But our team play as a whole when they are healthy and clicking can play with anyone in the league. Your best bet when you're playing the pens is to contain those two and force their role players like Kessel, Guentzel, etc to beat you. And outside those two, I like our chances.

 

[Maylo]

Pens also lost entire lineup. 2C. 2D. LW and a goalie. Bonino was their FO specialist, Malkin is bad at this. Crosby is not Bergeron either. Bonino, Cullen, Kunitz had 45 goals together last year, most of them ES.

 

[KJ Dangler]

I think there is some severe under valuing of what Duchene is as a player. First of all, a 5th of 6th defenseman is easy to get if need be. Personally, I think we are fine with Harrington, Nuti, & Carlsson. But if Jarmo is worried out our depth, we have plenty of assets to acquire defensive depth, and that's a lot easier to get , than a #1 center. Also, Murray , statistically from what I recall, was one of our worst defenseman. So if we lose him, I'm sure we will manage . We were a top 5 defensive team last year, and that is why we have a goalie that we pay 7.5 mill per season. But if we go into this season expecting Wennberg, to be playing a line higher than he should be, Dubinsky as a #2 center is a line too high, and Foligno as a #3 center, and that lineup is going to beat Pittsburgh in the playoffs ? With Pld looking to be a natural winger, its imperative that we get a center. That brings me back to Duchene.

Duchene is a #1 center, that's been stuck on an abysmal team. Anyone who thinks a player can keep his motivation up in a hopeless situation, should consider all the past jackets that struggled here, when we had the clubhouse environment, that went on to be much better once they were traded. Duchene , first of all, wins nearly 2/3 of his faceoffs. The current best on the jackets is Dubinsky at 50% (Pretty sure Wennberg is around 47%). Duchene has scored 30 goals in a season, 27 goals in a season, and hit the 70 point mark . As a matter of fact, the 3 years Colorado was actually decent, he had seasons of (23g 47 ass - 70 points) (21g 34 ass 55 pts) and (30g 29 Ass 59 pts). Personally, I think he comes to the cbj, and is consistently near a 65- 70 point player per season. He has elite speed, which will help this team tremendously, and he can beat players one on one with his agility and speed , which is something that is sorely needed on this team. Panarin was a good start, but in the playoffs, where the game gets bogged down, you need great offensive players to complement a good defense, and goalie.

Here is an idea of what he would bring to the jackets......

 

[Hello Johnny]

Also, Murray , statistically from what I recall, was one of our worst defenseman. So if we lose him, I'm sure we will manage

Look at our record without him last year.

We all know what Duchene can bring to the table. The book has been written. But who steps in if we have an injury or 2 in the top 4 of our defense? Carlsson, a 20 year old with 5 games under his belt? Nutivaara, who may start in Cleveland? Harrington? What if there are 2 injuries at once?

This isn't so cut and dried as it seems, and I was pushing hard for Duchene until recently.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Look at our record without him last year.

We all know what Duchene can bring to the table. The book has been written. But who steps in if we have an injury or 2 in the top 4 of our defense? Carlsson, a 20 year old with 5 games under his belt? Nutivaara, who may start in Cleveland? Harrington? What if there are 2 injuries at once?

This isn't so cut and dried as it seems, and I was pushing hard for Duchene until recently.

Nutivaara was plus 7 last year, and Harrington was a plus 2. Carlsson could certainly play in the 5-6 role, or we snag a defenseman on waivers, or trade for some depth . That alternative is a lot better than going into the season with Dubinsky and Foligno as your 2nd and 3rd centers .

 

[CBJx614]

Nutivaara was plus 7 last year, and Harrington was a plus 2. Carlsson could certainly play in the 5-6 role, or we snag a defenseman on waivers, or trade for some depth . That alternative is a lot better than going into the season with Dubinsky and Foligno as your 2nd and 3rd centers .

Sure you can just grab someone and throw them in.

But you're not going to be grabbing a top 4 capable player and you're not trading for one without giving up quality assets.

I really wanted Duchene for awhile, but at this point I think it's best to start the season as is. I don't want to give up Murray or Milano for Duchene.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Murray missed 12 regular season and 5 playoff games. All at the end of the season where we started to struggle. That's hardly a sample size, to say we struggled because we didn't have Murray is a stretch. He played, what, 12 minutes a game? I think he's a good player but he's not a difference maker. The only point that makes me pause is the injury thing. Because yes, if Jones or Z or JJ or Savard get hurt (or more) we would be in trouble. However, every team is that way. Some are acting as though Murray has gotten better since his rookie year. Duchene makes our team better than Murray does.

Not that it matters, because if it was just Duchene for Murray it would have been done months ago. I doubt we get Duchene.

 

[CBJx614]

Murray missed 12 regular season and 5 playoff games. All at the end of the season where we started to struggle. That's hardly a sample size, to say we struggled because we didn't have Murray is a stretch. He played, what, 12 minutes a game? I think he's a good player but he's not a difference maker. The only point that makes me pause is the injury thing. Because yes, if Jones or Z or JJ or Savard get hurt (or more) we would be in trouble. However, every team is that way. Some are acting as though Murray has gotten better since his rookie year. Duchene makes our team better than Murray does.

Not that it matters, because if it was just Duchene for Murray it would have been done months ago. I doubt we get Duchene.

The major hold up is the +

Would you give up Milano or Bjorkstrand after how they've played?

Would you give up Carlsson over Murray? Didn't Sakic want Carlsson?


Either way I'd much rather run a top pair and two top 4 pairs then roll basically two rookies on a the back pair. Neither Nuttivaara nor Carlsson have enough experience yet to make the trade imo.




Now if Gavrikov had come over I think this would have been a done deal already.

 

[Hello Johnny]

Nutivaara was plus 7 last year, and Harrington was a plus 2.

Wow, clearly they're ready to step into the top-4 at a moments' notice.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Wow, clearly they're ready to step into the top-4 at a moments' notice.

I'm confused, our top 4 consists of Werenski, Jones, Savard, and Johnson. Murray is currently our 5th or 6th defenseman. sure injuries can happen, for example, Wennberg could get hurt, and we have Dubinsky as our number 1 center, and Foligno as our number 2 center. If that happens, Kiss the season goodbye. Hence , why we absolutely need to land a center. I mean, we have Foligno moving from wing to center, to cover for him.

 

[Hello Johnny]

I'm confused, our top 4 consists of Werenski, Jones, Savard, and Johnson.

Right, but my point was that if any of them get hurt and we don't have Murray, it gets hairy. The +/- of Nutivaara and Harrington don't mean squat.

sure injuries can happen, for example, Wennberg could get hurt, and we have Dubinsky as our number 1 center, and Foligno as our number 2 center. If that happens, Kiss the season goodbye. Hence , why we absolutely need to land a center. I mean, we have Foligno moving from wing to center, to cover for him.

This is a good argument, and I don't disagree with any of it. The solution to me is not to trade Murray or Carlsson, but to find another center other than Duchene. Bozak could be had for instance. I want to keep the D our strength, because when we have injuries to our forwards, our D will still be one of the best units in the league. And when we have injuries to our D, we will have depth to cover it.

 

[thebus88]

Murray missed 12 regular season and 5 playoff games. All at the end of the season where we started to struggle. That's hardly a sample size, to say we struggled because we didn't have Murray is a stretch. He played, what, 12 minutes a game? I think he's a good player but he's not a difference maker. .

And yet, Carlsson's 2 regular season games and 5 playoff games showed that he is ready for a #4-5 role, or that Murray is expendable?! And man, you "anti Murray" guys really are lazy when attempting to make a case against him. "12 min a game?" ....? How bout simply looking up the TOI numbers for last year. I'm sure you can do some dividing to make your case anyway.

REG SEASON: Jones 23+ min/ Werenski 20+ min/ Savard 21+ min/ Johnson 21+ min. These guys were healthy "all" year. 74, 75, 78 and 82 games played. Murray played 18+ min in 60 games. Nutivaara played 13 min over most of the year while Prout and Harrington got about the same amount in spot duty. Quincey played 15-16 after he was brought in. Carlsson averaged 17 min in 2 (TWO) games.

PLAYOFFS: Now, after those 2 games, Carlsson's icetime shot down all the way to 10:57 in the 5 playoff games. Why? Both Nutivaara and Harrington got 1 min more (bout 12 min) per game. Quincey got 19 min.

Here is where I contest your idea that he is not a "difference maker". #1: Quincey had to play 19 min a game because of a combo of Murray being out and the "young guys" not being able to "handle" tough minutes.

ALL of the "top 4" had their minutes increase quite a bit because Murray was out in the playoffs. Jones played 26 min. Johnson right under 26 min and Savard right under 25 min. Werenski at 23+. All at least a 3 min increase. Maybe that's where that 12 min number comes from?

 

[CBJx614]

I'm confused, our top 4 consists of Werenski, Jones, Savard, and Johnson. Murray is currently our 5th or 6th defenseman. sure injuries can happen, for example, Wennberg could get hurt, and we have Dubinsky as our number 1 center, and Foligno as our number 2 center. If that happens, Kiss the season goodbye. Hence , why we absolutely need to land a center. I mean, we have Foligno moving from wing to center, to cover for him.

This is why having versatile players is so important as well as depth. If anyone of our center's goes down we have at least 3 wingers who are capable of sliding to center and we have the depth to call up wingers to fill the spot of whoever moved to center.

 

[CBJx614]

And yet, Carlsson's 2 regular season games and 5 playoff games showed that he is ready for a #4-5 role, or that Murray is expendable?! ALnd man, you "anti Murray" guys really are lazy when attempting to make a case against him. "12 min a game?" ....? How bout simply looking up the TOI numbers for last year. I'm sure you can do some dividing to make your case anyway.

REG SEASON: Jones 23+ min/ Werenski 20+ min/ Savard 21+ min/ Johnson 21+ min. These guys were healthy "all" year. 74, 75, 78 and 82 games played. Murray played 18+ min in 60 games. Nutivaara played 13 min over most of the year while Prout and Harrington got about the same amount in spot duty. Quincey played 15-16 after he was brought in. Carlsson averaged 17 min in 2 (TWO) games.

PLAYOFFS: Now, after those 2 games, Carlsson's icetime shot down all the way to 10:57 in the 5 playoff games. Why? Both Nutivaara and Harrington got 1 min more (bout 12 min) per game. Quincey got 19 min.

Here is where I contest your idea that he is not a "difference maker". #1: Quincey had to play 19 min a game because of a combo of Murray being out and the "young guys" not being able to "handle" tough minutes.

ALL of the "top 4" had their minutes increase quite a bit because Murray was out in the playoffs. Jones played 26 min. Johnson right under 26 min and Savard right under 25 min. Werenski at 23+. All at least a 3 min increase. Maybe that's where that 12 min number comes from?

Werenski also didn't see ANY pk time until Murray went down. The month and a half maybe more of the season the team really struggled. I was one of the ones who wrote it off and thought they and Bob would turn it aroundbut the d really needed some help. Nutti was hurt, Carlsson was still green and Quincey was getting waaaaaaay to much TOI.

To me it just makes too much sense to wait and see what we have before trading pieces away.


I know it's just preseason, but what if one of Dubois or Bjorkstrand rolls right into the season and keeps leading the team in points? What if Murray and Carlsson can really form some chemistry and turn into a lock down pairing on the 3rd pair? Maybe it's because I played goalie but I want to have a shutdown D before making any more moves to bolster the offense.

 

[theD86]

I'm never wanting to see an d-man traded. They have a ton of value. I'd part with Anderson before Murray.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

And yet, Carlsson's 2 regular season games and 5 playoff games showed that he is ready for a #4-5 role, or that Murray is expendable?! And man, you "anti Murray" guys really are lazy when attempting to make a case against him. "12 min a game?" ....? How bout simply looking up the TOI numbers for last year. I'm sure you can do some dividing to make your case anyway.

REG SEASON: Jones 23+ min/ Werenski 20+ min/ Savard 21+ min/ Johnson 21+ min. These guys were healthy "all" year. 74, 75, 78 and 82 games played. Murray played 18+ min in 60 games. Nutivaara played 13 min over most of the year while Prout and Harrington got about the same amount in spot duty. Quincey played 15-16 after he was brought in. Carlsson averaged 17 min in 2 (TWO) games.

PLAYOFFS: Now, after those 2 games, Carlsson's icetime shot down all the way to 10:57 in the 5 playoff games. Why? Both Nutivaara and Harrington got 1 min more (bout 12 min) per game. Quincey got 19 min.

Here is where I contest your idea that he is not a "difference maker". #1: Quincey had to play 19 min a game because of a combo of Murray being out and the "young guys" not being able to "handle" tough minutes.

ALL of the "top 4" had their minutes increase quite a bit because Murray was out in the playoffs. Jones played 26 min. Johnson right under 26 min and Savard right under 25 min. Werenski at 23+. All at least a 3 min increase. Maybe that's where that 12 min number comes from?

Woah woah. Anti Murray? Just for saying I'd rather have Duchene? That's a stretch. I also didn't say Carlsson was ready for top 4 duty anywhere, so you're just reaching so you can do these long fact drawn posts. When I said Murray played 12 minutes a game, I clearly didn't do research, so fair enough to contest and prove otherwise. Murray being a viable top 4 fill in due to injury or stabilize minutes doesn't make him a difference maker.

Look, I am not "anti-Murray". I just think we have an extreme need at center. One that could be helped (not solved) by adding Duchene. We have alot of good Dmen, including Murray, that could be used to help our center situation. That's it. Jeesh.

 

[CBJx614]

Woah woah. Anti Murray? Just for saying I'd rather have Duchene? That's a stretch. I also didn't say Carlsson was ready for top 4 duty anywhere, so you're just reaching so you can do these long fact drawn posts. When I said Murray played 12 minutes a game, I clearly didn't do research, so fair enough to contest and prove otherwise. Murray being a viable top 4 fill in due to injury or stabilize minutes doesn't make him a difference maker.

Look, I am not "anti-Murray". I just think we have an extreme need at center. One that could be helped (not solved) by adding Duchene. We have alot of good Dmen, including Murray, that could be used to help our center situation. That's it. Jeesh.

If you're not solving your problem why make the trade? We'd be helping one problem and possibly opening up another.