Player Discussion The Curious Case of Benjamin Hutton (Part II)

[alternate]

It's defensible because it's rooted in data. He shows better than Pouliot at ES, and he is favoured in many categories over Del Zotto. Stecher too, in _fact_, but the influence of his most frequent D partners is there. That is the evidence to back up the opinion. Your evidence to the contrary? I'm speaking strictly in terms of the data.





I don't understand how you can continually, and incorrectly, evaluate Pouliot and Hutton as similar players? Pouliot is atrocious defensively. Absolutely comical.

The questions are:

1. Is a player that puts up a Del-Zotto level offense + far worse defense, better than Del Zotto? No.

2. Do we expect that to change in a significant manner? IMO, no, 24 year old players don't generally see a spike. (Conversion rates may fluctuate).

3. Is a player that is -22 with 22 points appreciably better than a player that is -9 with 6 points (no advanced stats used)? No, the difference is 13 extra GA when player 1 is on the ice. He's helping give up as much as he puts up.

4. Last, does Pouliot's PP work trump Hutton's better ES play? No. ES play should be favoured. Normally, anyway.

Conclusion: Jettisoning Hutton over a worse player in Pouliot is an outright error. Moving him to keep even Del Zotto could be categorized as a mistake. This is less about being OK with whomever leaves, and more about which one should leave first. They are not all copies of the same player.

I don't consider them similar players in what they do on the ice...but they are similar in their level (3rd pairing) and their short comings (defense in front of their own net). If you disagree with that, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Your points vs +/- argumemt isn't really worth engaging due to the limited value of +/-. Who were they playing with/against? How were they deployed. Was Poo's minus accumulated consistenly over the course of the season, or did he have a couple spurts of big numbers that can be explained by injury and being deployed over his head?

As for being 24, which guy are you referring to? Seems this point addresses both guys equally no?

You are of the impression that Hutton is a far superior 5v5 player. I don't agree. Comparable level, sure. But superior? Not over the last 30 games or so. Hutton did have a stretch of very good games earlier but his play jas been on a downward trajectory since. Pouliot started well, then played some horrible hockey but finished the season on an upward trajectory.

Your "data" you are using to support your opinion i am assuming is some corsi numbers. You really need to be careful about using corsi as a definitive indicator. All sorts of variables that can influence those stats, and of course there are always statistical outliers.

End of the day, both are #6 guys on a good team right now, young enough for some improvement but too old to be expecting exponential improvements. You've ignored Poo's versatility (can play both sides + PP) plus probably being ~$1.5m cheaper. I don't hate Hutton but I would move him before Pouliot because I feel Pouliot's strengths are more valuable while their weaknesses (coverage around the net, consistency) are similar.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Wow!....just caught up with Green's comments at the season finale presser....said they need more offense from the blueline, but Hutton had "six assists in 60 games"....said his skating and conditioning have to get a lot better.....not liking the sound of that......he's as good as gone imo....potentially replaced by the likes of Juolevi, Brisebois or any UFA d-man Jimbo can scare up ...there has to be another Del Zotto out there somewhere (sic).

After watching the post season presser,I did not get any indication that Green disliked Hutton,or that he is as good as gone...The comments about his skating and conditioning were in response to a reporter that asked why Green didn't play to Huttons 'strengths'.

Hutton has already confirmed that he was not in good enough shape this season, and vows to come back next season prepared..Green also mentioned that Pouliot had an 'up and down' year,and was in the same boat as Hutton,..both have to show up in September and prove that they belong.

 

[Canucks1096]

3. Is a player that is -22 with 22 points appreciably better than a player that is -9 with 6 points (no advanced stats used)? No, the difference is 13 extra GA when player 1 is on the ice. He's helping give up as much as he puts up.

.

But when you put up points. For sure you had something to do with the goal. Regarding plus/minus not all the time it a directly your fault.

 

[Canucks1096]

After watching the post season presser,I did not get any indication that Green disliked Hutton,or that he is as good as gone...The comments about his skating and conditioning were in response to a reporter that asked why Green didn't play to Huttons 'strengths'.

Hutton has already confirmed that he was not in good enough shape this season, and vows to come back next season prepared..Green also mentioned that Pouliot had an 'up and down' year,and was in the same boat as Hutton,..both have to show up in September and prove that they belong.

The thing I don't quite understand is the first few months of season Hutton was playing 22 to 24 mins a game. Only MDZ had more ice time. Green was playing Hutton big mins. So Green was playing Hutton big mins beginning of the season. That means he didn't think he had any conditioning problems. So out all of sudden out of no where Hutton had conditioning problems?

If Hutton does have conditioning problems. Then Green need to take some blame as well for playing him too much in the start of the year. Hutton is not a 22 to 24 min type of D Yet.

 

[sting101]

It's kind of mind boggling that Hutton could play himself out of shape. For sure Green's message has more to do with his dedication to fitness throughout the year.

Hutton simply needs to establish himself as a harder player to play against. I was pretty happy with his play in November. He seemed to embrace the minutes and lack of PP and made some adjustments to move the puck quicker or lob it to centre ice, was starting to look legit. Then as we all witnessed he started to struggle and when challenged by Green with some healthy scratches he failed to assert himself in any impactful way. The most curious part was how his speed fell off at the same time.

On one hand you have a guy like Horvat who gets hurt and comes back in better shape and spends countless hrs squating and working on his power delivery in his stride then you have Hutton seemingly careless and getting slower as the year goes on.

On a side note it always looks to me like Hutton needs to tighten his skates or use a higher ankle rise. He looks off balance way too much, especially in transition which is hampering his first pass and his shot at the blueline. Anyone else concur?

 

[Grub]

Would not want an unmotivated player like Hutton bogging this team down. I mean come on if you can't even get the basics like conditioning that will help you be a professional player that's a big issue.

At this point I could care less if we get nothing for him. Bye, Hutton.

Also don't want to gloat, but I called it. Hutton is a bust . Stecher, you're next.

 

[F A N]

I'm not saying it's illustrating, but you know those off-season workout videos that the Canucks release? If you compare Horvat and Stetcher's workout videos to Hutton's it's like night and day in terms of effort and explosiveness.

 

[clunk]

I think we 100% take Boqvist if he's there at our pick (if not a lottery pick)

 

[m9]

Conclusion: Jettisoning Hutton over a worse player in Pouliot is an outright error. Moving him to keep even Del Zotto could be categorized as a mistake. This is less about being OK with whomever leaves, and more about which one should leave first. They are not all copies of the same player.

There is already a built-in escape plan with MDZ, as he is a veteran, "leader", somewhat physical blueliner going into the final season of his contract. These types of players have trade value every single deadline. If the Canucks can't get value for him, that's 100% on Benning. Having MDZ as your 3rd pairing guy throughout the season and then bringing Juolevi into that role after the trade deadline is an ideal plan. Any plan other than that should probably be categorized as a mistake.

 

[Canucks1096]

I think we 100% take Boqvist if he's there at our pick (if not a lottery pick)

Don't think Canucks will get Boqvist because there is no chance for Canucks get 4th or 5th overall. A top 3 pick you are not taking Boqvist. If they get 6th or lower. Chances are Boqvist will not be around at 6th

 

[Hit the post]

There is already a built-in escape plan with MDZ, as he is a veteran, "leader", somewhat physical blueliner going into the final season of his contract. These types of players have trade value every single deadline. If the Canucks can't get value for him, that's 100% on Benning. Having MDZ as your 3rd pairing guy throughout the season and then bringing Juolevi into that role after the trade deadline is an ideal plan. Any plan other than that should probably be categorized as a mistake.

 

[clunk]

Don't think Canucks will get Boqvist because there is no chance for Canucks get 4th or 5th overall. A top 3 pick you are not taking Boqvist. If they get 6th or lower. Chances are Boqvist will not be around at 6th

Yeah, it's unlikely. I sense they really want a point producing d-man with this pick, though, especially with Green's comments. Either through the draft, or a trade. Hughes would probably be another option.

 

[Horse McHindu]

i can’t even find a Hutton thread, that tells you most of the story about this player


Personally I want to keep him around for one more season, but I understand why people won’t sweat a bit watching him leave.

He’s not really a prospect anymore, has a comparably high cap hit for a bottom pair D, with Juolevi pretty much pencil to start with the team next season and Edler refuse to waive his NTC, the management basically see him as expendable.

And let’s be honest, despite a few streak of good games with Tanev as partner, Hutton had served quite a few pizzas the last two seasons,

If it were up to me, Hutton and Baertschi would be moved for picks. I would do the same with Granlund if teams were willing to give us a pick for him.

 

[F A N]

Vancouver Canucks✔@Canucks
Hutton said he isn’t proud of his season. “Coach was right to question my game and conditioning. I’m glad he did, it shows he cares and knows I can be better. And I will be better. I’ve already talked to guys back home, I’m starting a running group.”
11:40 AM - Apr 9, 2018

Good on Hutton. But I'm not sure he has the right idea. Who are his guys back home? It doesn't seem like he's working with other pro hockey players.

I guess Pouliot fits the mould of what they were looking for in an offensive dman and he took Hutton's spot? We are pretty much at a low point with Hutton's value, which given his contract isn't that great anyway. I'm not sure where you go from here. Trading him just for something doesn't seem like it is worth it. Keeping him is maybe just taking up a roster spot with a bad player sometimes. A no win situation really.

Pouliot being better on the PP has some truth.
Hutton is being better at 5v5 also has some truth.

The question is which gives you more going forward. (2-3 years from now). Pouliot has the edge on the PP, Hutton at ES. There will always be room for a 5v5 player. Will we need a PP specialist that struggles at ES? Today an argument can be made for carrying a PP specialist, but long term? Juolevi is coming. Canucks will target an offensive dman this year. It is possible they target a veteran offensive Dman too. Will there be a role for Pouliot on the PP? If not, is there any point carrying a weak ES dman?

Pouliot has primarily been used on the right side. He didn't steal Hutton's spot. If Sautner is being played ahead of Hutton that's his fault.

 

[Scott Stevens]

Is there actual speculation from people who know and hear things that Hutton is likely to be traded at the draft? Or is this just typical www.hfboards.com ADHD BS where the hope is he gets traded because PLAYER MOVEMENT OR DIE

 

[Melvin]

Is there actual speculation from people who know and hear things that Hutton is likely to be traded at the draft? Or is this just typical www.hfboards.com ADHD BS where the hope is he gets traded because PLAYER MOVEMENT OR DIE

If you can't read the writing on the wall that's your problem. Many of us had the same feelings McCann and Kassian were getting traded too. Nothing concrete in those cases either.

Can we maybe stop with this generalized board flaming though? So tiresome. If you don't like the forums then f*** off. Nobody will miss you.

 

[DFAC]

Would rather hold onto Hutton for another year because we'd be trading him when his value is at all time low right now.

 

[Scott Stevens]

If you can't read the writing on the wall that's your problem. Many of us had the same feelings McCann and Kassian were getting traded too. Nothing concrete in those cases either.

Can we maybe stop with this generalized board flaming though? So tiresome. If you don't like the forums then **** off. Nobody will miss you.

Are you denying the ADHD “PLAYER MOVEMENT OR DIE” nature of the vast majority of www.hfboards.com?

 

[Melvin]

Are you denying the ADHD “PLAYER MOVEMENT OR DIE” nature of the vast majority of www.hfboards.com?

I really don't know what you're talking about nor do I care. Just stick to talking about Hutton.

 

[Scott Stevens]

I really don't know what you're talking about nor do I care. Just stick to talking about Hutton.

I am talking about Hutton. And the nature of this website drooling over the possibility of him being traded because ALL THE PLAYER MOVEMENT!!!!!!!!

 

[Grub]

Huttons such a great guy i hope we keep him

Great guy that can't even commit on being a professional? I mean conditioning is the most basic things. Hope he is gone this draft.

 

[M2Beezy]

Great guy that can't even commit on being a professional? I mean conditioning is the most basic things. Hope he is gone this draft.

Yeah he can hit good too i just wish he knew how to manage and guide his strengths and weaknesses better in the offseason so he could step up to the next level

 

[Hodgy]

I am talking about Hutton. And the nature of this website drooling over the possibility of him being traded because ALL THE PLAYER MOVEMENT!!!!!!!!

When a player on an NHL contract, that isn't the league minimum or near it, is healthy scratched with some frequency, it stands to reason that the team would be willing to move him, or is actively trying to move him. This isn't rocket science.

 

[Verviticus]

3. Is a player that is -22 with 22 points appreciably better than a player that is -9 with 6 points (no advanced stats used)? No, the difference is 13 extra GA when player 1 is on the ice. He's helping give up as much as he puts up.

no opinions on the others, but +/- isnt adequate in any situation. its junk

 

[MS]

no opinions on the others, but +/- isnt adequate in any situation. its junk

+/- is a perfectly fine stat when used in context. It's weird how people HATE it as a stat but love GF/60 and GA/60 which are exactly the same thing, and love dropping Corsi numbers for sheltered players like this which is a far more useless stat.

That a guy getting minutes as soft as Pouliot was managed to go -22 in those minutes is ... awful. It was pretty plainly obvious to anyone watching the team that this player was bleeding goals everywhere and that stat basically confirms it.