Player Discussion The Curious Case of Benjamin Hutton (Part II)

[tantalum]

If the best you can say about a guy is with the right partner he's a #6 then there shouldn't be much concern over losing him.

Third pairing guy could be a #5 no? And a #5 is a guy that can fill in the top 4 if needed. That is not something many of the current canuck D-man can actually do. I think a confident Hutton can do that (again).

Now I'm not concerned per se about losing such a player. I'm concerned that the guy they are targeting to lose is viewed as the worst of the potential targets when he is in fact the best.

 

[m9]

I don't really have any concerns about losing Hutton at all.

At this point it would be very surprising if he turned into a good defensive player and he has shown little signs of developing into a good offensive player either. He's a good transition player, and that's about it.

He seems like a good guy and I hope he carves out an NHL career but on a defense that needs an overhaul I'm fine with giving some other guys a look.

 

[DL44]

The more I think about how things went down with Hutton, the more I think they'll be keeping him.

He got some tough love and forced to work on specific issues with his game.
He clearly isn't strong enough or difficult enough to play against... but he's got very good mobility thru the neutral zone and can be effective when being aggressive keeping the zone.. It's an interesting tool set and they got to make a decision on their whether they want to gamble on their belief level in his potential development.

Unless they package him to sweeten a larger deal, I think their approach late in the season was they want him playing the right way and focusing on the right things going into the offseason and coming to camp sound.

I'm not a Hutton fan and would have no qualms about seeing him leave the organization... but I would also be very interested to see if this summer gives him another level of development come fall.

Here's hoping a draft lottery win, and Juolevi's play make him a non-topic on our left side.

 

[megatron]

Nope. It was a really bizarre contract when his direct comparables were signing bridge deals in the 1.75-2MM range.

Yes, the contract was brought up by some of the media in direct conversations with Benning. To parapharase Bennings response: "The contracts going to look pretty good if he gets 55-60 points". Ridiculous analysis and commentary by Jim Benning. Source. Patcast from approx 2 weeks ago.

 

[timw33]

Yes, the contract was brought up by some of the media in direct conversations with Benning. To parapharase Bennings response: "The contracts going to look pretty good if he gets 55-60 points". Ridiculous analysis and commentary by Jim Benning. Source. Patcast from approx 2 weeks ago.

I remember this, and it reveals just how simple of a mind he has.

 

[alternate]

"In fact" the best. Hmmm don't agree it's a fact. Your opinion, and a defensible position, yes. But not a fact.

If you compare Hutton, Pouliot and Stetcher imo it's hard to really solidly say one's the best. I would say Stetcher played his way out of this group plus being RH has emerged as a 4-5 guy.

Between the other two i don't agree that Hutton is the better player. Both have had streaky seasons but Pouliots imo has at least trended up over the course of the season while Hutton has just been all over the map. Both have moments in front of their net that make my brain hurt. Both have some offensive instincts and games where they drive play.

Hutton is better at skating the puck out (when he is on his game) but Pouliot is the much better transition passer. Hutton is the better skater, but Pouliot is more consistently physical along the wall and even in front of his net. Hutton has a good sense of when to join a rush but doesn't possess the tools to produce when he does.

Pouliot can play PP, Hutton hasn't shown he can do any special teams. Pouliot can play both sides. Pouliot is cheaper. And really neither have much value, but I'd expect Hutton to return a bit more. I also think a few posters on here had their minds made up about Poo when he got here and haven't noticed that his play has improved down the stretch.

End of the day I see both as 3rd pairing guys that need the right partner to really thrive and still have some potential to develop into a #4. So considering Pouliots ability on the PP, versatility to play both sides, and cheaper contract, I would look to move Hutton first. Now if someone offered me more for Poo, then I'd be fine keeping Hutton, but I don't see that happening.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Those 22 points Poo put up were not as many as Hutton when Hutton was given the same chance. Hell Hutton put up more points with less chances as he was never a main stay on the pp like Poo has been. So at Poo's best he is still worse then Hutton was two seasons ago.

I don't think Hutton had a good season, but I would bet he IS better then what we saw this year. It was pretty obvious any of his positive attributes were being coached out of him, and his confidence was being torched.

i said it was close enough to be coach's choice, not that pouliot is better than hutton. at this stage that would be a pointless turtle derby. what the coach is chasing is upside, not a 22 point player. on upside, i don't see enough daylight between the two different players to second guess green.

 

[racerjoe]

The more I think about how things went down with Hutton, the more I think they'll be keeping him.

He got some tough love and forced to work on specific issues with his game.
He clearly isn't strong enough or difficult enough to play against... but he's got very good mobility thru the neutral zone and can be effective when being aggressive keeping the zone.. It's an interesting tool set and they got to make a decision on their whether they want to gamble on their belief level in his potential development.

I really hate this sentence... Do you know who is tough to play against? Tanev... Do you know who else is tough to play against? A player who doesn't spend a lot of time in their own zone. Instead we chase after this Gudbranson type dmen. It's pathetic.

I don't know if that is what you mean. So Sorry if it isn't. I just hate when coaches use that term.

i said it was close enough to be coach's choice, not that pouliot is better than hutton. at this stage that would be a pointless turtle derby. what the coach is chasing is upside, not a 22 point player. on upside, i don't see enough daylight between the two different players to second guess green.

I guess that is fair, I personally disagree and think Hutton is miles better than Poo. this isn't to say I think hutton is some future star, just that I see a useful player being torn to shreds by a coach and management team that is more useless. He had a bad season, and IMO was still probably our 3rd best dman. Now the flip side of that is really beyond Tanev and Edler none of them are top 4 guys. Our defence is just sad.

 

[M2Beezy]

Really frustrating to see Hutton who can be a good piece going forward being throw out the wayside by a coach who let's be honest probably won't be here in 3 years.

Agreed on all accounts

 

[DL44]

I really hate this sentence... Do you know who is tough to play against? Tanev... Do you know who else is tough to play against? A player who doesn't spend a lot of time in their own zone. Instead we chase after this Gudbranson type dmen. It's pathetic.

I don't know if that is what you mean. So Sorry if it isn't. I just hate when coaches use that term.

Nope. That's not what I meant... and you nailed it with Tanev being the type of defender that IS hard to play against for non-physical reasons.

Hutton isn't very good positionally - like at all. Seemingly always on the wrong side of the puck after a puck battle... not at all disruptive enough with his stick... one of the easier of our defenders for opposition forwards to retain pucks as they come down on him...

I guess that is fair, I personally disagree and think Hutton is miles better than Poo. this isn't to say I think hutton is some future star, just that I see a useful player being torn to shreds by a coach and management team that is more useless. He had a bad season, and IMO was still probably our 3rd best dman. Now the flip side of that is really beyond Tanev and Edler none of them are top 4 guys. Our defence is just sad.

I like enough of what I saw in Pouliot's good games early this season and some of the more recent ones, where I think his offensive flashes, vision and puck moving out-weight whatever slim defensive zone advantage Hutton may be perceived as having over him.

If Pouliot develops and puts more of those good games together, I'll be more than happy with having him back going forward given a choice. Also helps he's a little more versatile by being just as comfortable (if not more if you ask him) of playing on the right side.

 

[racerjoe]

Nope. That's not what I meant... and you nailed it with Tanev being the type of defender that IS hard to play against for non-physical reasons.

Hutton isn't very good positionally - like at all. Seemingly always on the wrong side of the puck after a puck battle... not at all disruptive enough with his stick... one of the easier of our defenders for opposition forwards to retain pucks as they come down on him...

I like enough of what I saw in Pouliot's good games early this season and some of the more recent ones, where I think his offensive flashes, vision and puck moving out-weight whatever slim defensive zone advantage Hutton may be perceived as having over him.

If Pouliot develops and puts more of those good games together, I'll be more than happy with having him back going forward given a choice. Also helps he's a little more versatile by being just as comfortable (if not more if you ask him) of playing on the right side.

That's just it though, I totally disagree with this. What there was to like of Poo, and he did some nice things here and there, wasn't even as good as Hutton. He had better chances to play more, and get offensive minutes. He passes the puck well, and is good with the puck, but doesn't skate well enough and and is worst defensively.

There was a play in the last two games that highlights this, I can't remember if it was the home game or the Edm game, but he made a nice play to step around a guy in the neutral zone, then didn't move his feet, and negated any progress he had just made. He hasn't shown anywhere close to the good and upside Hutton has, plus is still worst defensively.

 

[Jay Cee]

I guess Pouliot fits the mould of what they were looking for in an offensive dman and he took Hutton's spot? We are pretty much at a low point with Hutton's value, which given his contract isn't that great anyway. I'm not sure where you go from here. Trading him just for something doesn't seem like it is worth it. Keeping him is maybe just taking up a roster spot with a bad player sometimes. A no win situation really.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I am not entirely sure why so many people here defend Hutton so much. I get that he is a likeable person and has some untapped potential in a position of need.

But if he hasn't looked great over the last two seasons and has played over 200 games as a Canuck...it's not as if the organization hasn't given him ample time and opportunity to establish himself.

 

[BassMason]

When Hutton went to Utica after his university career was over I remember Green not playing him then. The next year he made the Canucks and as Nick Kypreos described it was a ‘gift from the hockey gods’.

Whatever reason there seems to be a disconnect between Green and Hutton and I don’t think any kind of offseason fitness routine is going to change that.

It’s a real bummer because I think Green is a good coach and I think Hutton can and will be a top 4 D for a long time. One of them has to go and it looks like it will be Hutton.

I just wish this management team could have been more in tune with this situation before letting the asset depreciate so much.

Sigh.

 

[racerjoe]

I am not entirely sure why so many people here defend Hutton so much. I get that he is a likeable person and has some untapped potential in a position of need.

But if he hasn't looked great over the last two seasons and has played over 200 games as a Canuck...it's not as if the organization hasn't given him ample time and opportunity to establish himself.

I defend him to the point a few others seem to... he is a top 5 guy. Nothing special, I just find it more of infuriating, that he is our 3rd best guy, and we clearly don't know what we should be looking for. He was actually fine most of last season, it was only when with Guddy he was bad. This year there has been a lot more bad.

In four seasons, he is still better than any other defender brought in by this management team. That is SAD and infuriating.

 

[me2]

If the best you can say about a guy is with the right partner he's a #6 then there shouldn't be much concern over losing him.

Yet they doubled down on Gudbranson...

 

[Pavel96]

Yet they doubled down on Gudbranson...

Guberson said he felt great today (with his arm in a sling after his shoulder surgery)

 

[timbermen]

Hutton and Stecher should have spent some time in Utica.everyone blames the Canucks GM for this but it was the coach,Desjardins,that wanted them on the team over guys like Corrado and Tryamkin.WD was thumbing his nose at the Canucks brass,running the team like they were in the WHL and scratching Tryamkin for them when they are 2 years from being ready.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Vancouver Canucks✔@Canucks
Hutton said he isn’t proud of his season. “Coach was right to question my game and conditioning. I’m glad he did, it shows he cares and knows I can be better. And I will be better. I’ve already talked to guys back home, I’m starting a running group.”
11:40 AM - Apr 9, 2018

 

[me2]

Pouliot can play PP, Hutton hasn't shown he can do any special teams. Pouliot can play both sides. Pouliot is cheaper. And really neither have much value, but I'd expect Hutton to return a bit more. I also think a few posters on here had their minds made up about Poo when he got here and haven't noticed that his play has improved down the stretch.

End of the day I see both as 3rd pairing guys that need the right partner to really thrive and still have some potential to develop into a #4. So considering Pouliots ability on the PP, versatility to play both sides, and cheaper contract, I would look to move Hutton first. Now if someone offered me more for Poo, then I'd be fine keeping Hutton, but I don't see that happening.

Pouliot being better on the PP has some truth.
Hutton is being better at 5v5 also has some truth.

The question is which gives you more going forward. (2-3 years from now). Pouliot has the edge on the PP, Hutton at ES. There will always be room for a 5v5 player. Will we need a PP specialist that struggles at ES? Today an argument can be made for carrying a PP specialist, but long term? Juolevi is coming. Canucks will target an offensive dman this year. It is possible they target a veteran offensive Dman too. Will there be a role for Pouliot on the PP? If not, is there any point carrying a weak ES dman?

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Hutton will be moved for almost nothing this summer or waived when camp breaks in September. Some team looking for a D-man capable of pushing play from the third pairing will pick him up for free or for cheap, pair him with a competent, responsible partner and we'll see Hutton demonstrate how he is a good top 6 D-man in the NHL.

They got rid of another guy with a bad attitude. That guy ended the year on a 35 point pace and began to solidify himself as a top 9 forward at 21 years of age.

Now Hutton is older and I don't expect huge growth from him but I do expect that with his confidence back he will be what he was...that top 6 D-man that does good things with the puck.

I don't like Green's comments which were basically "I don't care that the analytics say he was good he only had 6 assists and I don't think he was fit/strong enough".

I am still not even close to being sold on Green being a NHL coach.

Green was right with his comments though
Yes the analytics says he's solid, but you cant overlook the fact that he only has 5 assists when he's suppose to be an offensive D, also the way he constantly gets beat in board battle and 1 on 1 just shows you that Hutton probably has conditioning issue.

Analytics is suppose to be a support tool not the overall indicator

 

[M2Beezy]

Vancouver Canucks✔@Canucks
Hutton said he isn’t proud of his season. “Coach was right to question my game and conditioning. I’m glad he did, it shows he cares and knows I can be better. And I will be better. I’ve already talked to guys back home, I’m starting a running group.”
11:40 AM - Apr 9, 2018

Huttons such a great guy i hope we keep him

 

[tantalum]

Is that what he’s supposed to be or what they pigeon holed him as and therefore he’s a disappointment? I mean this blueline and team couldn’t put up points that I think it’s very hard to get down on Hutton and in the same breath be happy with Stecher and his 11 points while playing with superior players. The entire blueline except Edler was not good. And I’m not saying Hutton was good..just that he wasn’t the worst of the bunch and if you are looking to move forward there are other guys you jettison first.

 

[VanJack]

Wow!....just caught up with Green's comments at the season finale presser....said they need more offense from the blueline, but Hutton had "six assists in 60 games"....said his skating and conditioning have to get a lot better.....not liking the sound of that......he's as good as gone imo....potentially replaced by the likes of Juolevi, Brisebois or any UFA d-man Jimbo can scare up ...there has to be another Del Zotto out there somewhere (sic).

 

[Bleach Clean]

"In fact" the best. Hmmm don't agree it's a fact. Your opinion, and a defensible position, yes. But not a fact.

It's defensible because it's rooted in data. He shows better than Pouliot at ES, and he is favoured in many categories over Del Zotto. Stecher too, in _fact_, but the influence of his most frequent D partners is there. That is the evidence to back up the opinion. Your evidence to the contrary? I'm speaking strictly in terms of the data.

Between the other two i don't agree that Hutton is the better player. Both have had streaky seasons but Pouliots imo has at least trended up over the course of the season while Hutton has just been all over the map.

I don't understand how you can continually, and incorrectly, evaluate Pouliot and Hutton as similar players? Pouliot is atrocious defensively. Absolutely comical.

The questions are:

1. Is a player that puts up a Del-Zotto level offense + far worse defense, better than Del Zotto? No.

2. Do we expect that to change in a significant manner? IMO, no, 24 year old players don't generally see a spike. (Conversion rates may fluctuate).

3. Is a player that is -22 with 22 points appreciably better than a player that is -9 with 6 points (no advanced stats used)? No, the difference is 13 extra GA when player 1 is on the ice. He's helping give up as much as he puts up.

4. Last, does Pouliot's PP work trump Hutton's better ES play? No. ES play should be favoured. Normally, anyway.

Conclusion: Jettisoning Hutton over a worse player in Pouliot is an outright error. Moving him to keep even Del Zotto could be categorized as a mistake. This is less about being OK with whomever leaves, and more about which one should leave first. They are not all copies of the same player.