Player Discussion The Curious Case of Benjamin Hutton (Part II)

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,198
28,055
Montreal, QC
no opinions on the others, but +/- isnt adequate in any situation. its junk

Its not junk. It is like any other statistic, filled with noise and needs to be used appropriately.

Players who are not nhl players, or marginal nhl players should not be regressed to the same on ice save % as established nhl players.
 

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,198
28,055
Montreal, QC
+/- is a perfectly fine stat when used in context. It's weird how people HATE it as a stat but love GF/60 and GA/60 which are exactly the same thing, and love dropping Corsi numbers for sheltered players like this which is a far more useless stat.

That a guy getting minutes as soft as Pouliot was managed to go -22 in those minutes is ... awful. It was pretty plainly obvious to anyone watching the team that this player was bleeding goals everywhere and that stat basically confirms it.

I actually think it has less to do with "sheltered players" and more to do with what I referenced above.

When people conduct large-scale studies of NHL players, they impart upon the study an unavoidable selection bias and survivor bias. The players have to be good enough that they can play enough NHL minutes to be included in the study in the first place. Thus, we learn certain principles about this elite group and assume that what is true in the aggregate applies to all players who step on the ice in the league, and this is a fundamental error I see made very, very often in the analytics community. You learn something interesting, and it is a genuinely interesting and useful idea that, for example, you can expect NHL players to have their PDO regress towards 100. However, this is only true for players good enough to have been included in the original data-set for whom this is true! Thus, you make a fundamental error when trying to apply this general principle to any player who steps onto the ice.

We simply cannot assume that the same basic principles we have learned studying analytics for established NHL players also apply to the Patrick Wiercoch, Derrick Pouliot, Nic Dowd, Linden Vey level of players who are, at best, AHL-NHL tweeners and at worst something much less than that. Everything we know about analytics, CF, on-ice save%, etc. needs to be very carefully applied when talking about guys who have not established themselves to be quality NHL players. If I stepped on the ice, my analytics would be unfathomly terrible, and nobody would try to dismiss my terrible PDO or on-ice save% or +/- as having anything to do with luck. It has everything to do with me not being an NHL player.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,595
84,107
Vancouver, BC
I actually think it has less to do with "sheltered players" and more to do with what I referenced above.

When people conduct large-scale studies of NHL players, they impart upon the study an unavoidable selection bias and survivor bias. The players have to be good enough that they can play enough NHL minutes to be included in the study in the first place. Thus, we learn certain principles about this elite group and assume that what is true in the aggregate applies to all players who step on the ice in the league, and this is a fundamental error I see made very, very often in the analytics community. You learn something interesting, and it is a genuinely interesting and useful idea that, for example, you can expect NHL players to have their PDO regress towards 100. However, this is only true for players good enough to have been included in the original data-set for whom this is true! Thus, you make a fundamental error when trying to apply this general principle to any player who steps onto the ice.

We simply cannot assume that the same basic principles we have learned studying analytics for established NHL players also apply to the Patrick Wiercoch, Derrick Pouliot, Nic Dowd, Linden Vey level of players who are, at best, AHL-NHL tweeners and at worst something much less than that. Everything we know about analytics, CF, on-ice save%, etc. needs to be very carefully applied when talking about guys who have not established themselves to be quality NHL players. If I stepped on the ice, my analytics would be unfathomly terrible, and nobody would try to dismiss my terrible PDO or on-ice save% or +/- as having anything to do with luck. It has everything to do with me not being an NHL player.

On PDO, absolutely. And the flipside of that is that the truly elite players don't regress down to 100.0 either - Crosby and Ovechkin and prime Sedins and the like are consistently in the 101-102 range.

But the connection between zone starts and relCorsi is just hilarious. At one point this year the 7 'best Corsi' players on the team were the 7 most sheltered guys getting the softest minutes and best zone starts. And the 5 worst were the exact reverse. It's like clockwork that guys getting 55+% zone starts are magically every team's best possession players.
 

VanJack

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
21,240
14,411
If a guy earning $2.8m a season and living out the dream of playing in the NHL has to be told at 25 that he needs to get into better shape to play in the league, then this isn't reassuring. If he isn't traded first, it'll be a watershed season for Hutton....make or break time.
 

Hit the post

I have your gold medal Zippy!
Oct 1, 2015
22,315
14,085
Hiding under WTG's bed...
If a guy earning $2.8m a season and living out the dream of playing in the NHL has to be told at 25 that he needs to get into better shape to play in the league, then this isn't reassuring. If he isn't traded first, it'll be a watershed season for Hutton....make or break time.
Punish him further by making him play with Guds again.
 

F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
18,708
5,948
If a guy earning $2.8m a season and living out the dream of playing in the NHL has to be told at 25 that he needs to get into better shape to play in the league, then this isn't reassuring. If he isn't traded first, it'll be a watershed season for Hutton....make or break time.

Ya. My issue isn't his age as much as he has played 2 full seasons prior to this one. He should know what it takes to succeed in this league not just tread water. Hopefully he has had his wakeup call, but then again, his wakeup call was during the season when he could have put in the work and show the coach he got the message.
 

Ryan Miller*

Registered User
Jan 13, 2017
1,079
322
He won't be back next season if Canucks can get anything for him. They likely can't though, so he probably makes it to camp.
 

Cancuks

Former Exalted Ruler
Jan 13, 2014
3,881
3,251
At the EI office
What wonderful diamonds in the rough will Jim "The Brain" Benning uncover this offseason to improve our defense?
Crown jewels like Thomas Hickey, Brandon Manning, Luke Schenn?
Or will he bring back old steady reliables like Luca Sbisa, Kevin Connauton, Kevin Bieksa or Matt Bartkowski?

potofgold.jpg
 

Doyle Hargraves

Registered User
May 11, 2018
400
199
What wonderful diamonds in the rough will Jim "The Brain" Benning uncover this offseason to improve our defense?
Crown jewels like Thomas Hickey, Brandon Manning, Luke Schenn?
Or will he bring back old steady reliables like Luca Sbisa, Kevin Connauton, Kevin Bieksa or Matt Bartkowski?

potofgold.jpg

Who knows? Either way Hutton was a garbage fire for most of the year so it’s not like losing him will make the team any worse.
 

mossey3535

Registered User
Feb 7, 2011
13,326
9,828
Also, this team has a disturbing tendency to try to paint players the coach doesn't like with the "out of shape" brush. The last player it actually made sense for was SOB. Ok, and maybe Boucher but he was a mid season acquisition.

Hutton, and Tryamkin, and others were mysteriously playing big minutes just before or after that criticism was levelled on them.
 
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ChefBoiRD

Registered User
Feb 26, 2018
593
249
Who knows? Either way Hutton was a garbage fire for most of the year so it’s not like losing him will make the team any worse.

Agree

Stick a fork in Smiley, he’s done like Dinner. Another Gillis draft pick fail. In 6 drafts Horvat will be Gillis’ only legitimate NHL’er and he came via an elite young tender in Schneider. Absolutely atrocious, no excuses
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

Registered User
Oct 1, 2017
26,138
15,990
Also, this team has a disturbing tendency to try to paint players the coach doesn't like with the "out of shape" brush. The last player it actually made sense for was SOB. Ok, and maybe Boucher but he was a mid season acquisition.

Hutton, and Tryamkin, and others were mysteriously playing big minutes just before or after that criticism was levelled on them.
You obviously missed watching the pre-season games back in 2016 when Tryamkin was getting turnstiled on a regular basis..He was clearly out of shape...I believe he only played 2 pre-season games before they shut him down and got him in the gym.

Credit to Tryamkin though,he worked his ass off and got his spot on the D.
 

VanJack

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
21,240
14,411
Just can't see a scenario where Hutton comes back to the Canucks and plays for Green, particularly if Juolevi steps up in training camp as an option on the left side.

Even if Hutton works like a Trojan in this off-season and comes in, in better shape, he's still a d-man who delivers nothing in the way of offense and loses too many puck battles in his own zone. Unfortunately with his contract, Canucks will be dealing him at the bottom of the market, but still might make sense for some team, possibly as part of as larger deal with the Canucks.

I could see a team like Buffalo kicking the tires on Hutton.....and they have a few young forwards Canucks might be interested in.
 
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NucksRock

Registered User
May 16, 2018
450
255
Just can't see a scenario where Hutton comes back to the Canucks and plays for Green, particularly if Juolevi steps up in training camp as an option on the left side.

Even if Hutton works like a Trojan in this off-season and comes in, in better shape, he's still a d-man who delivers nothing in the way of offense and loses too many puck battles in his own zone. Unfortunately with his contract, Canucks will be dealing him at the bottom of the market, but still might make sense for some team, possibly as part of as larger deal with the Canucks.

I could see a team like Buffalo kicking the tires on Hutton.....and they have a few young forwards Canucks might be interested in.
Green had some pretty harsh words for him at the end of the year, so I would agree. The writing is on the wall. He and Pouliot bring the same thing, and Green knows / has a history with Pouliott.

Unless Hutton comes into camp and just turns a huge corner, he will be moved I think. And yes maybe at the draft.
 

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